Dreadknight with personal teleporter

[greatcrusade08]

seems people are fighting over the peas and dont know what the steak tastes like.

 

in this case the dreadknight is a stock monstrous creature, you give it a teleporter and it becomes jump infantry.. we all agree on these RAW points.

but why cant people see whats going on.

 

does he stop becoming a monstrous creature? it says plainly in his entry he is.. please provide a quote that shows hes not.

 

He IS an MC, just as he IS a jump infantry.. if he cannot be both (which hasnt been proved.. lack of a precedent hardly counts) why should JI take precedence over MC.. why should a wargear entry take precedence over a unit entry?

[dswanick]

The MC rules say the same thing - MCs use the rules for infantry for armor pen, except they roll an additional d6. Your argument could also be used to negate such basic USRs as Tank Hunter, or anything else which gives a bonus.

 

Yes. Which is why a mini with a unit type of MC/JI can't work.

 

As for USRs, they are totally seperate to Unit Type rules. As is Wargear and any bonuses that gives.

I think you're missing my point :

Tank Hunter gives a unit +1 Armor Penetration.

Monstrous Creature gives a unit +d6 Armor Penetration.

If a Jump Infantry unit (which uses Infantry rules in Assult) may not roll a +d6 for also being a Monstrous Creature, then it can't roll a +1 for also having Tank Hunter : because, by your logic, the basic Infantry rule only allows for S+d6. I'm not arguing for a combine MC/JI unit, just pointing out that your logic on this issue is not useful in arguing against combined unit types.

[Gentlemanloser]

The problem here, is any existing unit that takes Jump Packs or bikes is no longer 'changed' to the new unit type, but is a mix of both.

 

Interceptor with PTs are Infantry/JI. Space Marine Captains taking Bikes are Infantry/Bikes, etc.

 

As there's no rules to goven how two unit types stack together (or don't), we have to house rule it. An Infantry/JI mini would only be able to move a maximum of 6", as that's as fast as Infantry move, and you have to move at the slowest possible speed (and JI can move at 6" as well).

 

Or, we can just carry on as we have been, and take Jump Packs, PTs and Bikes to change one unit type to another. Which is the way I'm sure everyone has played the rules up until now.

 

In which case there's no problems, and no house rules required.

 

I think you're missing my point :

Tank Hunter gives a unit +1 Armor Penetration.

Monstrous Creature gives a unit +d6 Armor Penetration.

If a Jump Infantry unit (which uses Infantry rules in Assult) may not roll a +d6 for also being a Monstrous Creature, then it can't roll a +1 for also having Tank Hunter : because, by your logic, the basic Infantry rule only allows for S+d6. I'm not arguing for a combine MC/JI unit, just pointing out that your logic on this issue is not useful in arguing against combined unit types.

 

Tank Hunter isn't part of the Unit Type rules.

 

It's totally seperate and applied totally seperate to the ruls governing Unit Types, and what they can do.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

seems people are fighting over the peas and dont know what the steak tastes like.

 

in this case the dreadknight is a stock monstrous creature, you give it a teleporter and it becomes jump infantry.. we all agree on these RAW points.

but why cant people see whats going on.

 

does he stop becoming a monstrous creature? it says plainly in his entry he is.. please provide a quote that shows hes not.

 

He IS an MC, just as he IS a jump infantry.. if he cannot be both (which hasnt been proved.. lack of a precedent hardly counts) why should JI take precedence over MC.. why should a wargear entry take precedence over a unit entry?

 

 

How about if I have an assault squad that trades off their jump packs. Do they remain jump infantry? No they become Infantry because the Jump Pack is what makes them Jump Infantry. They are labelled as Jump Infantry in their unit entry but that doesnt matter because they have now changed. This is simply the opposite happening he gets a piece of gear and becomes Jump Infantry instead. As grey mage has mentioned Bikes on a command squad is a good example of the same thing happen they were Infantry, they become bikes. Similarly they dont remain a mixed type because then they could do things like Assault into buildings. Because they would be an Infantry/Bike hybrid. The same goes for characters on bikes.

 

here is an example of something that shows that Unit hybrids are impossible:

 

I have a Space Marine Captain on a bike he wants to assault a unit of grots sitting on the first floor of a ruin (counting from ground up as. Ground, First floor, second floor, roof)

 

We have two options for how this can happen:

1) I think this is what most people would say. No hes a bike he cannot enter the upper levels of a ruin sorry too bad.

2) The second option is that the captain is an Infantry/Bike and because no where in the rules does it say bikes cannot go up buildings the captain can leap off his bike and Dangerous Terrain to the second floor to assault the little green menace then drag the bike up after him.

[Hellios]

We have two options for how this can happen:

1) I think this is what most people would say. No hes a bike he cannot enter the upper levels of a ruin sorry too bad.

2) The second option is that the captain is an Infantry/Bike and because no where in the rules does it say bikes cannot go up buildings the captain can leap off his bike and Dangerous Terrain to the second floor to assault the little green menace then drag the bike up after him.

 

You should be able to dismount... if you have models to represent the squad on foot... that would be awesome...

[greatcrusade08]

How about if I have an assault squad that trades off their jump packs. Do they remain jump infantry? No they become Infantry because the Jump Pack is what makes them Jump Infantry.

 

Ah but this is specifically covered isnt it.. "they may remove thier jump packs to count as infantry".. note it doesnt mean they are no longer jump infantry but if they dont have the devices they can no longer use the movement rules which make JI unique.

pg 52 of the rulebook, shows it is the wargear which enables them to special movement.

 

Again it seems people are ignoring RAW.. it doesnt state the DK is no longer an MC, it simply adds that they are jump infantry..

there is no reason the two cannot both be true and by RAW this is the case. People are arguing this fact, but cannot with anything other than opinions and subpar excuses.

RAW is RAW.. its simple it must b both an Mc and jump infantry, an other interpretation is not RAW

 

all it means is we have to fit this into the current rules... hre we have an Mc which can move like jump infantry.. in assault the MCs rules overwrite basic assault rules, the jump infantry have no assault conditions therefore would use basic rules (which are overwritten by Mc rules)

so no clas there.. movment is covered JI can move as normal or with the special movement.. shooting is the same as assault, the JI use basic rules, but the Mc overwrites them.

 

therefore we have a model which can move like JI, shoot twice per turn and assault with attacks that ignore armour and have 2D6 pen.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Ah but this is specifically covered isnt it.. "they may remove thier jump packs to count as infantry".. note it doesnt mean they are no longer jump infantry but if they dont have the devices they can no longer use the movement rules which make JI unique.

pg 52 of the rulebook, shows it is the wargear which enables them to special movement.

 

Good point I had missed they changed that but it still doesnt address what happens with Characters. See my Last example of a character on a bike assaulting into a building.

 

 

so no clas there.. movment is covered JI can move as normal or with the special movement.. shooting is the same as assault, the JI use basic rules, but the Mc overwrites them.

 

therefore we have a model which can move like JI, shoot twice per turn and assault with attacks that ignore armour and have 2D6 pen.

 

How do we know which takes precedence? It seems as though they both say opposite things most of the time Ex: Jump Infantry says fire like Infantry. MC says fire like this instead. Units types are unit types not a part of its unit types. Isnt this a permissive ruleset? So where is your permission to be 2 unit types at once?

[Brother Valerius]

so no clas there.. movment is covered JI can move as normal or with the special movement.. shooting is the same as assault, the JI use basic rules, but the Mc overwrites them.

 

therefore we have a model which can move like JI, shoot twice per turn and assault with attacks that ignore armour and have 2D6 pen.

 

How do we know which takes precedence? It seems as though they both say opposite things most of the time Ex: Jump Infantry says fire like Infantry. MC says fire like this instead. Units types are unit types not a part of its unit types. Isnt this a permissive ruleset? So where is your permission to be 2 unit types at once?

 

To your first question, we don't. RAW in this case creates an ugly situation.

 

To your second, the permission is in the rules themselves. When the rules say "Dreadknight is an MC", and "Dreadknight is JI", without ever saying it cannot be both, that constitutes implicit permission to be both. The fact that the permission is split across two different spots in the rules does not negate the fact that the rules grant this permission.

[greatcrusade08]

so no clas there.. movment is covered JI can move as normal or with the special movement.. shooting is the same as assault, the JI use basic rules, but the Mc overwrites them.

 

therefore we have a model which can move like JI, shoot twice per turn and assault with attacks that ignore armour and have 2D6 pen.

 

How do we know which takes precedence? It seems as though they both say opposite things most of the time Ex: Jump Infantry says fire like Infantry. MC says fire like this instead. Units types are unit types not a part of its unit types. Isnt this a permissive ruleset?

 

there is no decison here, basic rules are basic rules whereas unit types have noted special rules which build on the basics.. for example the Mc in assault ignores armour and has 2D6 pen so it replaces the basic rules on this front.

on pg 52 under a darkened box labelled different unit types it tells us the basic rules are for infantry, note that infantry doesnt have its own section with the unit type rules.

infantry rules = basic rules..

unit type rules overwrite basic rules.

 

therefore if a dreadknight is an Mc and a jump infantry model he may shoot twice, becuase the Mc section overwrites the basic infantry section (its a permissive rules set)

there are actually no opposing rules here

 

So where is your permission to be 2 unit types at once?

A dreadknight is a MC, with a teleporter he is also a jump infantry... thats RAW.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Cool then if we ever play I will assault some bike captains up buildings ^_^

[greatcrusade08]

Cool then if we ever play I will assault some bike captains up buildings ;)

 

no you couldnt, the infantry rules would be overwritten by the cavalry/bike rules... meaning he would be limited to what the bike could or couldnt do

[Gentlemanloser]

How many NDKs (With PTs) can you fit in a Stormraven?

[greatcrusade08]

How many NDKs (With PTs) can you fit in a Stormraven?

 

none. they are monstrous creatures

[Gentlemanloser]

Being JI allows them to embark a Storm Raven.

 

Why is this overwritten by thier MC rules?

[greatcrusade08]

Being JI allows them to embark a Storm Raven.

 

Why is this overwritten by thier MC rules?

 

incorrect normal jump infantry CAN embark on a storm raven whereas monstrous creatures cannot..

the NDK is both JI and an MC, therefore cannot embark.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why does the MC rule take precedent?

[greatcrusade08]

Why does the MC rule take precedent?

 

common sense

 

RAW

 

your at a fairground, you have to be 16+ to go on the roller coaster.. your over 16 great, however your told you cant go on becuase of height restrictions.. two rules in apparent contradiction to each other.. or are they?

the stormraven allows jump infantry to embark, however MCs specifically CANNOT embark on transports.. the stromravens rule that allows JI to board doesnt overwrite the Mcs rule therefore the NDK is walking

[Gentlemanloser]

That's not RAW, that's RAI.

 

If that was the case, then the NDK wouldn't get Relentless, 2d6 Pen (as the JI rules don't allow it) and would have to move 6" max, as the MC rules don't allow a 12" move.

[greatcrusade08]

That's not RAW, that's RAI.

 

If that was the case, then the NDK wouldn't get Relentless, 2d6 Pen (as the JI rules don't allow it) and would have to move 6" max, as the MC rules don't allow a 12" move.

 

wrong again

 

Mcs use infantry movement with the exception noted of miving through cover, as already discussed basic infantry rules are overwritten by specific unit type rules.. therefore the NDK can be an Mc and still move 12"

again with shooting the JI rules are basic infantry rules which are overwritte by the Mc unit type rules.

 

once you read pg 52 under "different unit types" youll have a greater understanding, it puts unit type rules as taking precedence over basic infantry rules

 

and i am using RAW by the way :D

[Gentlemanloser]

MCs use Infantry Movement rules, as they don't change them (apart form move thorugh cover, as noted). JI use thier rules for Movement, as they update the Infantry rules.

 

These two updates are totally seperate (think of it as GW saving space in the book by not reprinting all the rules in common), and when you check to see how far a MC can move, you use the basic Infantry rules. Not Infantry rules modifierd by JI. You only do that when you want to see how far a JI can move.

 

So a NDJ that is both MC and JI at the same time can move 6" max and 12" max. These are in direct contradiction with each other.

 

That's the only way the RAW can work.

 

Mini's can't be of a mixed unit type without breaking the RAW of 40K.

 

And;

 

the stromravens rule that allows JI to board doesnt overwrite the Mcs rule therefore the NDK is walking

 

Is RAI. RAW, a JI unit type can board a Stormraven. That is in direct contradiciton with the MC rules. The choice of which takes precedent is purely a RAI houserule.

[Grimtooth]

That's not RAW, that's RAI.

 

If that was the case, then the NDK wouldn't get Relentless, 2d6 Pen (as the JI rules don't allow it) and would have to move 6" max, as the MC rules don't allow a 12" move.

 

wrong again

 

Mcs use infantry movement with the exception noted of miving through cover, as already discussed basic infantry rules are overwritten by specific unit type rules.. therefore the NDK can be an Mc and still move 12"

again with shooting the JI rules are basic infantry rules which are overwritte by the Mc unit type rules.

 

once you read pg 52 under "different unit types" youll have a greater understanding, it puts unit type rules as taking precedence over basic infantry rules

 

and i am using RAW by the way :D

 

And I will point you that on page 52, it is singular unit type taking precedence over the basic infantry rules. Read it again, it is unit type, not unit types.

[Gentlemanloser]

An additional question.

 

If we accept that single minis can be of a mixed unit type, and there's no rules restricting this, then we have to accept that any combination of multiple unit types is acceptable.

 

How does an Infantry/Vehicle mini work?

 

Armour save or Armour Value? Can you be locked in combat with it? Do you take DT test and do you get imobilised on the roll of a 1?

 

And we can't stop there.

 

If multiple unit types are acceptable, then surely by RAW we can have an;

 

Infantry/Bike/JI/MC/Artillery/Vehicle mini.

 

How does that work?

[greatcrusade08]

there has to be a point here when the mods step in, because this is becoming a circular argument.

 

MCs use Infantry Movement rules, as they don't change them (apart form move thorugh cover, as noted). JI use thier rules for Movement, as they update the Infantry rules.

 

These two updates are totally seperate (think of it as GW saving space in the book by not reprinting all the rules in common), and when you check to see how far a MC can move, you use the basic Infantry rules. Not Infantry rules modifierd by JI. You only do that when you want to see how far a JI can move.

 

So a NDJ that is both MC and JI at the same time can move 6" max and 12" max. These are in direct contradiction with each other.

 

only if you see the NDK as being two seperate entities.. the NDK is both a JI and MC..

since the MC uses basic infantry rules and the JI uses its own updated rules then by RAW you use the updated ones, becuase they have precedence over basic rules.. its would only be a contradiction if the Mc rules we different to the basic rules and in disagreement with the JI rules..

becuase the NDK has a unit type (or two) you sideline any basic rules unless the unit type rules doesnt change anything.

 

Mini's can't be of a mixed unit type without breaking the RAW of 40K.

Citation please, where does it state a mini cannot have a second unit type, assault marines are jump infantry yet wihtou thier JP they are "counts as infantry" (keeping JI in thier unit entry)

There are precedents for this.

 

the stromravens rule that allows JI to board doesnt overwrite the Mcs rule therefore the NDK is walking

 

Is RAI. RAW, a JI unit type can board a Stormraven. That is in direct contradiciton with the MC rules. The choice of which takes precedent is purely a RAI houserule.

 

actually no its not a houserule, in a permissive rules set you must be allowed to do something within the rules, even with both rules having equal standing as soon as one says your not allowed to do something, then your not allowed to do it. that the bottom line.

you cant cherry pick which rules to use when rules are contradictory.

in this case we have a rule that allows JI to use stormravens, which is fine as there are plenty of Ji units that are suitable, however MCs by RAW cannot use transports...

 

 

An additional question.

 

If we accept that single minis can be of a mixed unit type, and there's no rules restricting this, then we have to accept that any combination of multiple unit types is acceptable.

 

How does an Infantry/Vehicle mini work?

 

you mean artillary? thats catered for alreadyor do you mean walkers, becuase they are catered for also

 

And we can't stop there.

 

If multiple unit types are acceptable, then surely by RAW we can have an;

 

Infantry/Bike/JI/MC/Artillery/Vehicle mini.

 

How does that work?

 

Since its not going to happen theres no point speculating, its drawing focus away from the question in tis thread.

 

And I will point you that on page 52, it is singular unit type taking precedence over the basic infantry rules. Read it again, it is unit type, not unit types.

with respect this argument is assinine, its merely an interpretation that its referrign to a single unit type, throughout the text it talks about unit types, and in the sentece your referring to it says "follow the rules for the appropriate unit type"

in this case for movement since Mcs use infantry rules the appropriate unit type is JI

for shooting as JI uses infantry rules the appropriate unit type rules are the MC.

 

ill agree that its unusual to see a model with a dual unit type (with neither being infantry), but its RAW that the NDK with teleporter has two types, im not sure why i need to argue for people to follow RAW

 

edit: im going to bed, ill let people decide for themselves from now on, i hate repeating myself

[Grimtooth]

It will be RAW the moment you can point to the defined unit type JumpMonstrousInfantryCreature on either page 4 or 5 of the BRB. Until then, you are playing RAI to create a dual mixed unit type.

 

When a dreadknight with personal teleporter is Jump Infantry, I can point directly to the unit type in the BRB. I can point directly to the rules for Jump Infantry to move, shoot, and assault.

 

You can do neither.

 

Had to add this:

 

You talk of a permissive ruleset.

 

Warhammer 40k writes their rules to only say that which CAN do because the things that you CAN'T would result in a book several thousand pages longer.

 

Based on that premise, where do you get the CAN to create a MC/JI hybrid? Where do you get the CAN to interpret that a Dreadknight retains his MC status when given a personal teleporter? Remember, permissive ruleset so you can't say, "It doesn't say I can't" is not a valid response.

 

So apply the permissive ruleset to my opinion?

 

Where does it say that a Dreadknight with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry?

 

Well in the rule for personal teleporters,

 

"A unit with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry."

 

Well where does it say that it isn't both JI/MC?

 

In the unit type entry for Jump Infantry which the rule for personal teleporters told us to reference when it said a unit with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry.

 

By all means point of the RAW in the unit type entry for Jump Infantry that is MC.

[Grey Mage]

So here the deal.

 

This argument is circular, and entirely a matter of opinion. Some people are saying that it can be both types, despite no unit in the game being both types until- possibly- this point. We have no rules to define how that interaction occurs, and it seems unlikely that GW is going to put this out so we can compare dozens of different rules that are all equally important in order to figure out one unit.

 

On the other hand we have people saying it entirely replaces the unit type, wich grammatically makes sense. However its impossible to prove a negative so the cries of 'but it doesnt say you arent still a monstrous creature' will go on unabated.

 

If you have something new to add to this thread that will resolve the basic issues Im all ears, but if this thread continues to go in its circular spin it will be locked until the FAQ appears.