Custodian Athiair Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Ok small question with the PAGK squads it says that you replace all weaponary with the heavy weapon. does that mean that any of the Grey Knights with a heavy weapon do not wield a Nemesis Force Weapon. cause that is a huge downside to the heavy weapons, cause if they get caught in combat then they aren't going to survive very long... secondly it's the same with a brotherhood banner. it says they have to lose their NFW, which is a huge downside to that guy because his banner is designed to be used in combat situations more than anything; yet the guy will not be able to hurt much compared the rest of his squad, which again is going to hurt a lot. so whats you guys opinions on this topic, because it seems that the upgrades that everyone really enjoys, can hurt the wielder quite a lot... Athiair :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226477-heavy-weapons-and-nfw/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormTAG Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Swapping a single NFW for +1 attack for the whole rest of the unit is hardly a huge downside. Plus, you still get normal attacks and Hammerhand means you beat people with a Strength 5 banner pole. Not too shabby. Swapping your NFW and SB for a heavy weapon is a trade off you have to consider. I like the idea of 10 Purifiers charging down a LR's ramp with a bunch of Halberds, Hammerhand and a dude with Rad Grenades. Much death ensues. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226477-heavy-weapons-and-nfw/#findComment-2712353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Ok small question with the PAGK squads it says that you replace all weaponary with the heavy weapon. does that mean that any of the Grey Knights with a heavy weapon do not wield a Nemesis Force Weapon. cause that is a huge downside to the heavy weapons, cause if they get caught in combat then they aren't going to survive very long... secondly it's the same with a brotherhood banner. it says they have to lose their NFW, which is a huge downside to that guy because his banner is designed to be used in combat situations more than anything; yet the guy will not be able to hurt much compared the rest of his squad, which again is going to hurt a lot. so whats you guys opinions on this topic, because it seems that the upgrades that everyone really enjoys, can hurt the wielder quite a lot... Athiair :D Same as it has been for the last 11 years, so not a big surprise. The heavy weapons guys support their unit with a capability that they'd not otherwise have, and a full unit will still be comprised of at least 8 power weapons, so his squad mates will be doing plenty of killing in close combat. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226477-heavy-weapons-and-nfw/#findComment-2712362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplainmeliadus Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 In a paladin squad, the banner bearer can hold a psycannon. Now tell me he's not going to hurt much ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226477-heavy-weapons-and-nfw/#findComment-2712584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Yeah thats how it goes. I find Brotherhood Banners to be a waste of points. You already have to give up one of your Terminators to get a hammer (so stupid walkers don't tie you up forever, poor Bloodletters), robbing another of his attacks is a further gimp. Anyway, you're Leadership 9, you'll get the force weapon going most times anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226477-heavy-weapons-and-nfw/#findComment-2713052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 The banner has more of an advantage the more bigger your squad is. At around three-four Paladins (including BB) it looks like it will break even - any more and you gain more attacks than the ones you lost by taking a banner. Any less and it's just not worth it. Personally, I think Draigo and falchion wielders takes the biscuit here. Those lunatics shows that Grey Knights can obviously wield an NFW and bolter using the same limb while leaving the other one free for something else. It makes me wonder (at an extra cost obviously) why they can't the BB take the whole set? Is it really too demanding/awesome to ask for? :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226477-heavy-weapons-and-nfw/#findComment-2713075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Yeah, but I'm wary of fielding huge point-eating Deathstars with Grey Knights. You don't need that many Paladins to roll other Deathstars anyway, 4-5 is enough plus a Grandmaster/Librarian/Draigo. With regular Terminators, I like to keep them cheap and simple so I can fill out Troops and spend my points on useful units like Purifiers. So, Brotherhood Banner takes a backseat to more delicious psycannon on the table (because you can never have enough, and it handily doesn't replace the NFW on Terminator models). Falchions are highly overrated, halberds and a hammer are the way to go (even with Draigo attached). Striking first is way more important that striking more, dead manz in the enemy squad means less attacks back to cause dead manz in your squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226477-heavy-weapons-and-nfw/#findComment-2713115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Not disagreeing, in fact I feel that's it's overpriced. Just doing the reasoning on when it becomes effective even before costs are taken into account. Personally I'd just spend it on the extra PAGK. And why the pointless lecture on falchions et al? Surely over-costed is more accurate to being overrated? The original comment was more a stab at codex inconsistency - that sometimes the rules allow GKTs to use NFWs and wrist-mounted weaponry together. It shows that it could be possible for a GKT to hold a banner and still wield his NFW with his ranged weapon-mounted arm. Of course it doesn't speak of fair play - unless you're spending around 25pts to take that banner, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226477-heavy-weapons-and-nfw/#findComment-2713192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordsloth Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Personally I think the loss of NFW for a heavy weapon is fair considering how cheaply (pointswise) the power armoured dudes get their heavy weapons. That little pts for a +1str assault cannon with an on-the-move profile would be utterly ridiculous if there wasnt an added cost. It would have to be at least 40 pts otherwise. Personally I think its better the way it is now. Brotherhood banners I'm personally not a fan of unless you make a really big unit (full ten or at least 7 to stick in a crusader). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226477-heavy-weapons-and-nfw/#findComment-2713236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 And why the pointless lecture on falchions et al? Surely over-costed is more accurate to being overrated? The original comment was more a stab at codex inconsistency - that sometimes the rules allow GKTs to use NFWs and wrist-mounted weaponry together. It shows that it could be possible for a GKT to hold a banner and still wield his NFW with his ranged weapon-mounted arm. Of course it doesn't speak of fair play - unless you're spending around 25pts to take that banner, right? Sorry, didn't mean to come across as having a go at anyone :cuss . I just feel they're not worth it, either in points or more importantly, opportunity cost. Maybe if they were like a 2-3pt upgrade on Strike or Interceptor squads, I would understand. As it is, you pay a lot for those extra attacks on anything in power armour (which is mystifying, as even though they're quite cheap on Terminators, they let you have hammers and halberds for nothing, both options being better). I agree, it's dumb they make you give up your close-combat weapon, other armies banners/extra wargear don't affect the bearers wargear allotments at all (so long as you can model said dude with his other wargear). But them's the breaks. It's not the worst upgrade in the world, and in large squads I would definitely take it, but as it stands I'd rather take a psycannon on regular guys, or double up psycannon on Paladins (as the points costs in both cases are roughly the same). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226477-heavy-weapons-and-nfw/#findComment-2713247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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