Scout move and Teleport Shunt

[Grimtooth]

So just another issue that is going to come up.

 

A unit with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry. Once per game instead of moving, the unit can perform a teleport shunt which allows it to move 30".

 

Is a teleport shunt allowed as a Scout move?

 

My opinion is that it is not currently allowed.

 

The Scouts rule states that you may make a normal move. The personal teleporter states that instead of moving you can teleport shunt. Granted that the teleport shunt entails physically moving your model 30" and will count as moving, you are not making a normal move as per the requirement set in the Scout rule, you are making a teleport shunt.

 

Using smoke launchers and allowing bikes to use turbo-boosters during the Scout move had to be FAQ'd into the game. Until an FAQ is released, a teleport shunt is not allowed to be made during the Scout move as it is not a normal move, it is a teleport shunt that was done instead of moving.

[greatcrusade08]

scout moves are only allowed for models/units with the scout USR.. do the GK have access to that USR?

[Brother Valerius]

Yes. With a GKGM, you can give D3 units your choice of Scouts, Counter-Attack, Scoring, or re-rolling wound rolls of 1. There are some restrictions, but most units are eligible.

[Hellios]

So just another issue that is going to come up.

 

A unit with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry. Once per game instead of moving, the unit can perform a teleport shunt which allows it to move 30".

 

Is a teleport shunt allowed as a Scout move?

 

My opinion is that it is not currently allowed.

 

The Scouts rule states that you may make a normal move. The personal teleporter states that instead of moving you can teleport shunt. Granted that the teleport shunt entails physically moving your model 30" and will count as moving, you are not making a normal move as per the requirement set in the Scout rule, you are making a teleport shunt.

 

Using smoke launchers and allowing bikes to use turbo-boosters during the Scout move had to be FAQ'd into the game. Until an FAQ is released, a teleport shunt is not allowed to be made during the Scout move as it is not a normal move, it is a teleport shunt that was done instead of moving.

 

 

The problem is normal isn't a very precise word... I mean you can turbo boost with bikes in the scout phase but I wouldn't call that normal... then again do we mean normal for that unit type or for all types and if so would that be a 6 inch move as if it was infantry?

 

The other arguement is that the rules say that the game starts after deployment (including scout and infiltration) and so you can make the arguement that as it says may shunt once per game it can't do it during the scout phase as the game has not yet started. However again I think this is sloppy writing... if the game hasn't started I can ignore all the deployment rules and I can't be done for cheating because the game hasn't started yet...

 

So yes arguements can be made that you can't shunt... personally I don't think it is a big deal and would be happy to let dread knights shunt in the scout phase until GW FAQ this... because as I say it is very sloppy writing... RAW I would go with they can't... RAI... I don't know... but in the spirit of the game I would let people do that until GW FAQ one way or the other.

[greatcrusade08]

An answer to this question could have big repercussions, a scout move shunt followed by a first turn 12" move means you can get first turn charges with a monstrous creature..

i dont believe that was meant to happen, but then even a 12" scout move could potentially get you in assault with a 12" move and 6" assault..

 

swings and roundabouts i guess, im of the opinion that the scout moves 'normal' move limits things like teleporting

turbo-boosting is included IMO becuase you can choose to do it every turn as your normal movement.. whereas the 'shunt' move is once per game and i highly doubt we call call it a normal move.

[SeattleDV8]

This is going to happen with or without the shunt.

Once you have given the DK the teleporter it becomes (moves like?) Jump Infantry and is allowed to move 12" with the scout move.

The shunt would allow a longer scout move but remember it still has to be 12" away from the opponent.

The 'normal' move arugment doesn't work for me as Turbo-Boosting is an USR ..Universal Special Rule.

The FAQ shows that any move allowed in the normal movement phase is allowed in the scout move.

[Grimtooth]

This is going to happen with or without the shunt.

Once you have given the DK the teleporter it becomes (moves like?) Jump Infantry and is allowed to move 12" with the scout move.

The shunt would allow a longer scout move but remember it still has to be 12" away from the opponent.

The 'normal' move arugment doesn't work for me as Turbo-Boosting is an USR ..Universal Special Rule.

The FAQ shows that any move allowed in the normal movement phase is allowed in the scout move.

 

Turbo-boosters is listed under Movement for bikes which is why it is allowed to be done as a Scout move. All you can take from the turbo-boost FAQ is that you can turbo-boost in the Scout move. Adding any other action based on the FAQ id RAI.

 

I think it has a 50/50 chance of being allowed but I am leaning towards it not being allowed due to balance issues.

[Brother Valerius]

To be honest, I don't see it as having severe balance implications. Even if you can shunt, you still have to stay 12" away from enemy units (and you've used up a very useful ability that you could use mid-battle to lend aid where it is needed). Without a shunt you would only (!) get a 12" move, but your scout unit is going to be right at the edge of your deployment zone to maximize how close it can get, meaning that it has a good chance of getting a first turn assault off anyway (since it has 30" of movement between scout move, first turn move, and assault move).

[greatcrusade08]

To be honest, I don't see it as having severe balance implications. Even if you can shunt, you still have to stay 12" away from enemy units (and you've used up a very useful ability that you could use mid-battle to lend aid where it is needed). Without a shunt you would only (!) get a 12" move, but your scout unit is going to be right at the edge of your deployment zone to maximize how close it can get, meaning that it has a good chance of getting a first turn assault off anyway (since it has 30" of movement between scout move, first turn move, and assault move).

 

yes and no, its a good chance but not gauranteed, youd have to set it up first (as you get first turn) meaning your opponent could keep out of the way, alternatively clever deployment and/or use of infiltrators could feed this dreadknight a small throw away unit, before you smash it in your turn.

if it had a 30" shunt as its scout move, youd remove your opponents ability to counter its first turn assault ability

[Grey Mage]

Like most of the GK questions that have been brought up, this one has a simple answer:

 

Talk it over with your opponent, try to use common sense, and wait for the FAQ.

[Aidoneus]

Like most of the GK questions that have been brought up, this one has a simple answer:

 

Talk it over with your opponent, try to use common sense, and wait for the FAQ.

Quoted for truth.

[SeattleDV8]

Agreed

[Hellios]

yes and no, its a good chance but not gauranteed, youd have to set it up first (as you get first turn) meaning your opponent could keep out of the way, alternatively clever deployment and/or use of infiltrators could feed this dreadknight a small throw away unit, before you smash it in your turn.

if it had a 30" shunt as its scout move, youd remove your opponents ability to counter its first turn assault ability

GC... even with the 30 inch shunt move if your enemy knows it is coming he should be able to use the throw away unit tactic... sucks more if you don't have throw away units... or you could reserve most/all of your units... in fact you have many many ways to get round it... the two key issues are what armies can't... and is this due to poor construction or unbalanced rules and if an army can get around the issue then in taking a position to deal with the teleporting knights are you no longer able to deal with the rest of the army. Maybe this was designed to to give something to grey knights that would scare the cack out of leafblower guard lists... who knows )

[greatcrusade08]

yes and no, its a good chance but not gauranteed, youd have to set it up first (as you get first turn) meaning your opponent could keep out of the way, alternatively clever deployment and/or use of infiltrators could feed this dreadknight a small throw away unit, before you smash it in your turn.

if it had a 30" shunt as its scout move, youd remove your opponents ability to counter its first turn assault ability

GC... even with the 30 inch shunt move if your enemy knows it is coming he should be able to use the throw away unit tactic... sucks more if you don't have throw away units... or you could reserve most/all of your units... in fact you have many many ways to get round it... the two key issues are what armies can't... and is this due to poor construction or unbalanced rules and if an army can get around the issue then in taking a position to deal with the teleporting knights are you no longer able to deal with the rest of the army. Maybe this was designed to to give something to grey knights that would scare the cack out of leafblower guard lists... who knows :cuss)

 

 

i strongly disagree, each unit creates a 12" bubble for preventing scout moves, a 30" shunt can easily avoid this is deployed centrally.

the opponent would need two or three such throw away units to be deployed to counter it.. and then we are getting into the realms of an expensive counter, possibly too expensive to warrant it as a matter of tactics

[Hellios]

i strongly disagree, each unit creates a 12" bubble for preventing scout moves, a 30" shunt can easily avoid this is deployed centrally.

the opponent would need two or three such throw away units to be deployed to counter it.. and then we are getting into the realms of an expensive counter, possibly too expensive to warrant it as a matter of tactics

 

I dunno, I can stretch a squad of orks (or better grots!), guard, nids, dark eldar, eldar, black templar crusade squad, kroot a pretty long way... Combat squads with crazy combat tactics magig might not be bad... oh and as the scouts man you haven't forgotten about the disruption enemy scouts can do to units infiltrating... I assume they count as a unit for the purposes of being 12 inches away?

[Race Bannon]

Like most of the GK questions that have been brought up, this one has a simple answer:

 

Talk it over with your opponent, try to use common sense, and wait for the FAQ.

 

Although I agree, that's not enough.

 

You're suggesting the GK player to talk it over with each opponent first, ultimately settle on THEIR interpretation, and change play-style accordingly. If it were common-sense then there would be no discussion One jackass will disagree with your interpretation (you, who wants the advantage) versus the cool-dude who just wants to play for fun (thus allowing you the advantage).

 

Let's face it: shunting in the scout move IS an advantage to the GK ... and a big one. Why would the GK player not want to use it? Talking it over is basically asking for permission to use the rule to the GK advantage while attempting to word-lawyer it to that end.

[greatcrusade08]

I dunno, I can stretch a squad of orks (or better grots!), guard, nids, dark eldar, eldar, black templar crusade squad, kroot a pretty long way... Combat squads with crazy combat tactics magig might not be bad... oh and as the scouts man you haven't forgotten about the disruption enemy scouts can do to units infiltrating... I assume they count as a unit for the purposes of being 12 inches away?

 

i havent forgotten, its my knowledge of the pre battle dance that tells me 30" is more than enough to counter scout move nullyfing tactics..

the Dreadknight doesnt infiltrate so doesnt worry about enemy scouts disruption during deployment..

12" scout moves are pretty easy to 'lock down'.... 30" is a different story

 

edit: all you can hope to do is create certan no-go areas, but with a shunt scout move you couldnt 'control' the Dks movement and are therefore on the back foot

[Hellios]

I dunno, I can stretch a squad of orks (or better grots!), guard, nids, dark eldar, eldar, black templar crusade squad, kroot a pretty long way... Combat squads with crazy combat tactics magig might not be bad... oh and as the scouts man you haven't forgotten about the disruption enemy scouts can do to units infiltrating... I assume they count as a unit for the purposes of being 12 inches away?

 

i havent forgotten, its my knowledge of the pre battle dance that tells me 30" is more than enough to counter scout move nullyfing tactics..

the Dreadknight doesnt infiltrate so doesnt worry about enemy scouts disruption during deployment..

12" scout moves are pretty easy to 'lock down'.... 30" is a different story

 

edit: all you can hope to do is create certan no-go areas, but with a shunt scout move you couldnt 'control' the Dks movement and are therefore on the back foot

 

 

I don't see this as being hard to do yet you tell me you are the ultimate ninja warrior with your scout list :D) Then again I play Eldar and I am expanding my Dark Eldar once again where controlling the battle is everything... *smacks head against stone wall*.

[greatcrusade08]

i dont know if we are seeing the same issues or what here.. what im saying is with a free 30" scout move you couldnt close down the dreadknight like you can other units.. not aswell as deploying to suit your own game plan..

[Rapture747]

Isn't what the normal move for a unit is determined by the unit type?

 

The BRB lists the normal movement options for jump infantry and it makes no mention of any 30 inch teleport movements.

[greatcrusade08]

Isn't what the normal move for a unit is determined by the unit type?

in a way yes, most unit types use basic infantry rules, the unit types however will show what rules changes from the norm (infantry) which includes movement, shooting and assault

 

The BRB lists the normal movement options for jump infantry and it makes no mention of any 30 inch teleport movements.

Its a dreadknight GK special so ive been told..

 

I don't see this as being hard to do yet you tell me you are the ultimate ninja warrior with your scout list

i dont recall every saying i was the uber scout meister (although it may be true.. ;) )

my army has no bearing on the discussion at hand, no-one has ever managed to out scout or outmaneuver my whizzy scouts yet.. but i have a very uniqe army, most people cant pull the same kind of tricks as me and will be on the recieving end of a 30" scout move

[Grimtooth]

Isn't what the normal move for a unit is determined by the unit type?

in a way yes, most unit types use basic infantry rules, the unit types however will show what rules changes from the norm (infantry) which includes movement, shooting and assault

 

The BRB lists the normal movement options for jump infantry and it makes no mention of any 30 inch teleport movements.

Its a dreadknight GK special so ive been told..

 

I don't see this as being hard to do yet you tell me you are the ultimate ninja warrior with your scout list

i dont recall every saying i was the uber scout meister (although it may be true.. :D )

my army has no bearing on the discussion at hand, no-one has ever managed to out scout or outmaneuver my whizzy scouts yet.. but i have a very uniqe army, most people cant pull the same kind of tricks as me and will be on the recieving end of a 30" scout move

 

It isn't a Dreadknight special, it is a special ability granted by a piece of wargear; personal teleporters.

 

A unit with personal teleporters is Jump Infantry. Once per game instead of moving, they can perform a teleport shunt.

[Grey Mage]

Like most of the GK questions that have been brought up, this one has a simple answer:

 

Talk it over with your opponent, try to use common sense, and wait for the FAQ.

 

Although I agree, that's not enough.

 

You're suggesting the GK player to talk it over with each opponent first, ultimately settle on THEIR interpretation, and change play-style accordingly. If it were common-sense then there would be no discussion One jackass will disagree with your interpretation (you, who wants the advantage) versus the cool-dude who just wants to play for fun (thus allowing you the advantage).

 

Let's face it: shunting in the scout move IS an advantage to the GK ... and a big one. Why would the GK player not want to use it? Talking it over is basically asking for permission to use the rule to the GK advantage while attempting to word-lawyer it to that end.

Then dont play them.

 

If your going tournament play, then get a ruling from your local tournament organizer. If your traveling to tournament, call ahead and ask. If the answer isnt acceptable to you then skip it.

 

Because many of the questions about the new GKs are inane, and simply cannot be answered definitively without a response from GW.

[Dan VK]

The qualifier ‘normal’ is junk language that only occurs alongside ‘move’ in the Scouts USR entry. A ‘move’ is any movement until GW states otherwise, and if the Scouts USR entry allows a unit to move after deployment but before the first turn and the Personal Teleporter entry allows a unit to move 30” then a unit affected by both entries may combine those actions unless either entry contains a stated exception, which neither do.

 

[Whew, that sentence was a mouthful! :lol: ]

[Grimtooth]

The qualifier ‘normal’ is junk language that only occurs alongside ‘move’ in the Scouts USR entry. A ‘move’ is any movement until GW states otherwise, and if the Scouts USR entry allows a unit to move after deployment but before the first turn and the Personal Teleporter entry allows a unit to move 30” then a unit affected by both entries may combine those actions unless either entry contains a stated exception, which neither do.

 

[Whew, that sentence was a mouthful! ^_^ ]

 

Which would normally be enough but the language of the personal teleporter specifically tells you that you are not moving, but performing a teleport shunt.

 

"Instead of moving..."

 

The mechanics of what entails a teleport shunt of course have the model moving, but the mechanics of what a shunt entails are preceded by the affirmation that you are doing something completely different then moving, you are teleport shunting.

 

So even if you did not have the normal move language within the scout move,

 

"Scout move may make a move as they do in the movement phase....(parapheased)"

 

The wording for shunting has clearly defined it as an action other then moving.