Did we win?

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Probably to avoid a conflict with the =][=, but I'm surprised they would do that with a founding chapter (respect), but allowing Silver Skulls/Exorcist a little more autonomy.

 

Also, Perhaps Dante would want to avoid more =][= sniffing into their business and finding more out about the flaw.

 

Of course thats what you want when you're hiding a dark secret someone wandering through your head deleting things :(

[Brother Chris]

Are we seriously thinking people who fight demons have their minds wiped afterwards? How would commanders ever learn anything? You would be at a grave disadvantage to the demon armies. And the Chaos marines are regularly accompanied by exactly the same demons. Do we have to have our minds wiped only if there isn't a human element to the opposing army?

 

Records of demonic incursions and the acts of the Grey Knights I can buy, but minds? That's crazy!

[the jeske]

Are we seriously thinking people who fight demons have their minds wiped afterwards?

that is what the GK fluff says. Ask Ward why he thinks it should be so.

[Brother Nathan]

thats why you play sucesors who have no such constraints. how does he explain the company called deamon banes? or the images of sanguinius fighting bloodthirsters? etc...

[Tabgoi]

thats why you play sucesors who have no such constraints. how does he explain the company called deamon banes? or the images of sanguinius fighting bloodthirsters? etc...

 

He puts his fingers in his ears and goes "na na na na na na na na na..."?

[Leonaides]

so is this supposed to be intelligent discussion or fanboi ranting? Because its starting to look a lot like the latter...

[JamesI]

In order to mindwipe Marines I think something far more significant than just demons appearing would have had to have happened. Something that even Marines can't be allowed to know.

 

I don't know what something like that could be though.

[Leonaides]

grey knights falling? Or failing and actually having to be rescued by ba's? Its a good way to have a rep for infalability when if you do fail you just mind-wipe or kill all the witnesses... Tho i more suspect something along the lines that maybe the ba's saw some of a ritual of banishment- enough of the wrong knowledge and in a desperate situation might they try to copy it- risking it going wrong and actually summoning more daemons?

[Volchek]

GW seriously needs to put all codex writing in the hands of a single, solid writer that knows the fluff of 40K and knows how to play the game.

 

Mat Ward should never be allowed anywhere near the development department at GW. He's an idiot.

[SamaNagol]

"OK Matt, you had a good run son. Take a rest and sit this one out now"

 

They need to just leave him to write rules. He is good at rules. Well, not actually writing them so they dont fall apart under the rigours of RAW, but actually coming up with rules.

[Brother Nathan]

so is this supposed to be intelligent discussion or fanboi ranting? Because its starting to look a lot like the latter...

 

how so? i mearly pointed out that despite whatever it says in the greyknights codex ba obviously know about deamons and traitors... just look through the lore of our dex(horrible though some of it is) specifically the sanguard entry which tells of things sanguard have done, or look at the names of the companies, 5thco is called deamon banes, which would be weird if they didnt know of deamons. and the ba sem know of the herasy the traitors(we keep comming upon their path) the fight between sanguinius and the bloodthirster, and obviously the death of sanguinius(as those whom enter the black rage have visions of sanguiniuses end) i can understand the gryknighs removing the worst ofthe imiges to prevent corruption of minds but to remove everything about the deamons would probably not be the greatest of ideas...

[1Drop]

I thought it was Dante who snapped a bloodthirster in half and is the spelling for the foul beats not *Daemon? Or atleast it was during my chaos reign of 92 - 03.

 

I totally agree though that there is no logicality of deleting soldiers minds of the details on how to drop a horde of bloodletters led by a greater daemon of khorne aka a bloodthirster as this is knowledge that is worth it's weight in gold.

[Blood Angel Scout]

After a read over the GK codex and noticing that Dante agreed to having those BA who survived mindwiped, I propose this theory- it is possible he only sent Death Company due to the following:

 

Benefit of DC believing they're Sanguinius- harder faster stronger, fair to assume there is potential a "purer divine" mind/psychic resonance to affect daemons (just throwing out a concept- purity of faith sort of thing) plus it is a battle with Ka'bandatha (sp) who Sanguinius defeated himself and that if the mindwipe process is extensive enough the battle brothers may even revert to pre-black rage.

 

I know that there will be an argument against why this would'nt happen as then could do it for all DC and then no problem but thinking on the basis that to fully mind wipe a marine is an extremely time-consuming process therefore not feasible on chapter scale but, considering that these are effectively expendible troops i.e. hope they find death or else Astorath time, and that it is the resources of the inquistion/grey knights who will perform this task then could be considered win win for BA as the number expected to survive will not be high but those who do, may be able to return to wearing red instead of black

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Whats a deamon?

 

The irony of this is that you're using the wrong 'there' in your signature that states this. :D

[Tabgoi]

After a read over the GK codex and noticing that Dante agreed to having those BA who survived mindwiped, I propose this theory- it is possible he only sent Death Company due to the following:

 

Benefit of DC believing they're Sanguinius- harder faster stronger, fair to assume there is potential a "purer divine" mind/psychic resonance to affect daemons (just throwing out a concept- purity of faith sort of thing) plus it is a battle with Ka'bandatha (sp) who Sanguinius defeated himself and that if the mindwipe process is extensive enough the battle brothers may even revert to pre-black rage.

 

I know that there will be an argument against why this would'nt happen as then could do it for all DC and then no problem but thinking on the basis that to fully mind wipe a marine is an extremely time-consuming process therefore not feasible on chapter scale but, considering that these are effectively expendible troops i.e. hope they find death or else Astorath time, and that it is the resources of the inquistion/grey knights who will perform this task then could be considered win win for BA as the number expected to survive will not be high but those who do, may be able to return to wearing red instead of black

 

Somehow I don't think they would send unattended DC to assist the one organization that could declare them touched by chaos for the mere existance of the DC.

[Blood Angel Scout]

Tabgoi,

 

First response to that is The Red Thirst would be the thing that brings accusations of taint, Black Rage essentially causes marines to run around shouting "I'm Sanguinius" "No, I'm Sanguinius" "I'm Lemartes" etc and are Death Company not led by chaplains therefore attended by?

 

Secondly, after roughly at least 8,000 years (figure flaw would take at least 2,000 to develop into a serious concern, due to chapter reknowned life spans) think sections of the Inquisition will be aware of the DC and not be concerned, though more puritanical elements might.

 

Somehow I think you may have been unaware of the political differences within the structure of the =I=, or indeed some of the details surronding the flaw or then again maybe slightly too eager to put down my theory and failed to give it some proper consideration?

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Well 'we won' the LPC forum contest anyway! ^_^ ...nice job everyone!

[Tabgoi]

I got mixed up between this thread and the other Grey Knights BA thread where we were discussing the Black Rage, because somehow it seems like every GK thread in this forum ends up talking about them. I am not reposting a couple pages of how I think someone in the Inquisition has to be giving them a hand or something because otherwise hiding the flaw would be just about impossible since Space Marines are not exactly inconspicous. Plus Marines are super human killing machines, not masters of intelligence gathering and control like the Inquisition. Not to mention the Blood Angels have a close working relationship with both the Order Malleus and Xenos, so someone in both those orders must have put two and two together, otherwise they would be very bad at their jobs. I also realize there are a lot political infighting in the Inquisition and there are far more then just the two orders I mentioned already and the ordo Hereticus. The new Grey Knights Codex even outlines two Inquisitors going head to head and trying to kill each other over a disagreement over how to handle a problem. But I appologize if you thought I was dismissing your idea out of hand. Still you do not poke the bear by throwing guys in grip of the Black Rage into battle beside the Inquisition.

 

Besides, our codex specifically says it was the Sang Guard lead by Sepharan that fought beside the Inquisition on this particular fight. Perhaps before you accuse me of not giving you due consideration, and accusing me of being ignorant, you could check page 16 of the BA codex, first entry and compare the date to the last entry on page 15 of the Grey Knights codex which is the one everyone is discussing in terms of mind wiping. This whole discussion is over two little tiny paragraphs within the confines of two large codexes, so it can be easy to miss little things like these. If you want to have a discussion on the Black Rage and the Red Thirst, we should probably start a different thread as that would probably have a lot of people wanting to give voice to their opinions on it. As it is I am still used to the Red Thirst simply being a special rule for the DC allowing Chaplains and Sang Priests to control them as opposed to an army wide rule. The first codex you play for an army just tends to be the one that sticks in your mind the firmest, you know?

[Blood Angel Scout]

Fair point, especially your last line re the first codex you read sticks in your mind the firmest!

[Tabgoi]

Yeah, how sad is that? I can remember where these little bits of fluff are, but I still cannot get past the changes to the Black Rage and the Red Thirst. I am pretty sure my brain is not wired right. And if it wasn't for our codex already stating it was Sang Guard, and the Inquisition's stance on deviance within the Adeptus Astartes I would be all on board with the DC being the ideal unit to send. I mean seriously, with how powerful the average Marine is, who would not want one pushed to even further heights by the stored memory of the fall of their Primarch? If there are better shock troops in the Imperium I have yet to see them, at least for their in game points cost (Grey Knights, Terminators, things like that can out perform them, but with twice the starting price). And yeah, prior to this codex if a Chaplain was nearby they would be able to be fully controlled, but we lost that, so they are more of a liability now then they used to be. Which is a shame, but after third edition there will always be a place for them in any list I make. Its so sad that people will never again know the fear in their opponent's eyes as 24 DC with a handful of power weapons and power fists come storming forward into their lines with jump packs in a 1,000 point battle (you really have to get lucky for this to happen). There are just too many power weapons and plasma weapons in this edition, that and plasma weapons got beefed up. They just are not as scary anymore. And now I am rambling.