Mortis909 Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 As the title says is a purgation squad worth taking and if so what weapon options would you take and what battlefield role would they be used for? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormTAG Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Purgators w/ 4 Incinerators and a transport would crispy fry the hell out of just about anything. W/ 4 Psicannons, they're pretty serious anti-tank, but again, would probably need a transport. Move them mid-field and park in some cover, then lay down 16 rending S7s every turn. :huh: That said, you're competing for Heavy slots, which include the Psyfle-dread and the Land Raider, both awesome choices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2712631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muadib02 Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 In my mostly deep strike army I have two small squads (5 guys) with 4 psycannons, a teleport homer and a razorback to act as anchors for the rest of my army to come in around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2712632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Not really. The only thing they are good for is to get 4 Psycannons with just 5 men. For anything else, Purifiers, especially combat squaded fake Purgation, 4 Psycannon Purifiers are better. And they don't have to compete with your Dreads. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2712692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Yeah, Purifier squads are better in almost all cases. Much more cost-effective, and they don't suck in combat. Besides, you need the points/slots for Dreadknights/Dreadnoughts Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Aye it seems everyone will be either paying the Crowe tax for Purifiers or Grand Mastering them into Troops choices. Personally I think they are worth it due to reasons stated, 16 rending shots at S7 is rather tasty Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 It's not going to be too often power-armoured dudes fire in heavy mode though. Terminators sure (thats why double psycannon on Paladins is so tasty), but regular dudes will spend most of their time moving either into range, or into close-combat. Admittedly it's hilarious if you get the chance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Purgation squads are definitely worth serious consideration. I'm considering taking a squad or two in razorbacks. Keep the TLHB turret but give the vehicle psybolt ammo. 50 pts of cheap but awesome dakka at 36". :) Give the unit 4 psycannons. Deploy the unit as far forward as you can. Depending on enemy deployment, either run the razorback a full 12" upfield and pop smoke, or just go 6" and prepare to fire the TLHB. Dump out the purgators behind the hull of the vehicle and LET 'ER RIP! Your opponent can't see your firepower, just the razorback. ^_^ Which is also a significant weapon in its own right. :D Sure, the target unit will be guaranteed at least a 4+ cover save, but I don't think that's gonna matter with 4 psycannons firing on them. Wounds (or hits on vehicles) are likely to get through. And that's only going to get more true because in subsequent turns your psycannon fire will double its output. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmande Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 4 Incinerators and a ride costs only 135pts, so they could definitely find a use in small games/metas where horde armies are prevalent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sirrion Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 I'm loving the purgation. Anybody thought about using a purgation sqaud with psilencers? 4 of them will put out 24 shots a turn! Sure you have to spend one turn moving into position, but after that, WOOT!! I can also see the psilencer squad being good at holding an objective against horde armies. They'll give orks, nids, IG fits. Well if the IG foot-slog. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormTAG Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Correct me if I'm wrong, since I don't have the book in front of me but the Psilencer is a Heavy 6, S4, AP- weapon. The Psycannon is a Assualt2/Heavy 4, S7, AP4 Rending weapon. Psilencer vs. Guardsmen w/o Coversave: 6 shots, 4 hits, 2.67 wounds. 1.78 kills Psycannon vs. Guardsmen w/o Coversave: 4 shots, 2.67 hits, 2.22 wounds, 2.22 kills With a cover save, the Psilencer comes narrowly ahead. Psilencer Vs. Orks w/o Coversave: 6 shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 1.67 kills Psycannon vs. Orks w/o Coversave: 4 shots, 2.67 hits, 2.22 wounds, 2.22 kills Even with a cover save, the Psycannon comes out ahead. S7 just makes it so easy to wound things, plus having an AP value So yeah, if you have the points, the Psycannon is as effective at killing hordes theoretically while being capable of threatening their support and vehicles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sirrion Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Damn you math!! ^_^ Well, thanks for that. Saved me from putting a bunch of psilencers together. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Purgation squads are definitely worth serious consideration. I'm considering taking a squad or two in razorbacks. Keep the TLHB turret but give the vehicle psybolt ammo. 50 pts of cheap but awesome dakka at 36". Give the unit 4 psycannons. Deploy the unit as far forward as you can. Depending on enemy deployment, either run the razorback a full 12" upfield and pop smoke, or just go 6" and prepare to fire the TLHB. Dump out the purgators behind the hull of the vehicle and LET 'ER RIP! Your opponent can't see your firepower, just the razorback. Which is also a significant weapon in its own right. Sure, the target unit will be guaranteed at least a 4+ cover save, but I don't think that's gonna matter with 4 psycannons firing on them. Wounds (or hits on vehicles) are likely to get through. And that's only going to get more true because in subsequent turns your psycannon fire will double its output. If you don't mind not using Astral Aim, or you plan on the Razor gwtting popped, you can do the same with a Purifer Squad. Just take 10 and Combat Squad them. ;) Stick the 5 with 4 Psycannons in your Razorback, and the other 5 (with 1 Hammer and 4 Halberds) in your Stormraven. ^_^ Well, thanks for that. Saved me from putting a bunch of psilencers together. Psilencers sohuld be the poster boy for this Codex. Great new unit, great fluff, nice lookng model. So rubbish rules, you'll *never* use them... Hopefully in another 10 years we can get someone to update and tidy up our Codex, and fix these craptastic designs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Purgation squads are definitely worth serious consideration. I'm considering taking a squad or two in razorbacks. Keep the TLHB turret but give the vehicle psybolt ammo. 50 pts of cheap but awesome dakka at 36". Give the unit 4 psycannons. Deploy the unit as far forward as you can. Depending on enemy deployment, either run the razorback a full 12" upfield and pop smoke, or just go 6" and prepare to fire the TLHB. Dump out the purgators behind the hull of the vehicle and LET 'ER RIP! Your opponent can't see your firepower, just the razorback. Which is also a significant weapon in its own right. Sure, the target unit will be guaranteed at least a 4+ cover save, but I don't think that's gonna matter with 4 psycannons firing on them. Wounds (or hits on vehicles) are likely to get through. And that's only going to get more true because in subsequent turns your psycannon fire will double its output. If you don't mind not using Astral Aim, or you plan on the Razor gwtting popped, you can do the same with a Purifer Squad. Just take 10 and Combat Squad them. ;) Stick the 5 with 4 Psycannons in your Razorback, and the other 5 (with 1 Hammer and 4 Halberds) in your Stormraven. ;) Well, thanks for that. Saved me from putting a bunch of psilencers together. Psilencers sohuld be the poster boy for this Codex. Great new unit, great fluff, nice lookng model. So rubbish rules, you'll *never* use them... Hopefully in another 10 years we can get someone to update and tidy up our Codex, and fix these craptastic designs. Unless you are facing daemons then the psilencers will win you the game. Greater Daemon? Who needs a Dreadknight when you have a few Psilencer purgation squads Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormTAG Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Psilencers sohuld be the poster boy for this Codex. Great new unit, great fluff, nice lookng model. So rubbish rules, you'll *never* use them... Ain't a codex released where something wasn't underpowered compared to something else. At least Psilencer/Psycannon have a points differential. But the GK, for the most part, has plenty of fully serviceable models. Every heavy, fast and troop is pretty much solid. Most of the Elites are as well. Majority of the HQs are solid too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Psilencers, Crowe, and I'm sure others. New stuff, with great ideas and fluff, but abysmally bad rules... Unless you are facing daemons then the psilencers will win you the game. Greater Daemon? Who needs a Dreadknight when you have a few Psilencer purgation squads Never! Psycannons wound most Dameons on a 2+ anyway. And you can rend away the 'crushers Armour saves. Pislencers are worse than Psycannons in every respect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Psilencers, Crowe, and I'm sure others. New stuff, with great ideas and fluff, but abysmally bad rules... Unless you are facing daemons then the psilencers will win you the game. Greater Daemon? Who needs a Dreadknight when you have a few Psilencer purgation squads Never! Psycannons wound most Dameons on a 2+ anyway. And you can rend away the 'crushers Armour saves. Pislencers are worse than Psycannons in every respect. I can't agree, against Greater Daemons and daemon Princes the psilencer is the superior weapon. i agree in every other case the psilencer is useless. personaly i don't use them because i hate the fluff. I kill you with MIND bulets! *facepalms* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nian Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 What would a Psilencer be like vs a Psycannon if they were both master created? Would the extra shots from the Psilencer be better than vs a squad? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notanoob Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 You could use Purgation squads, but Purifiers and such are always better. Quad incinerators? Who cares when Purifiers have cleansing flame? Quad psycannons? You've got so much psycannon saturation in the GK army that it doesn't mean much, especially when you want some LONG ranged firepower, which comes best from HS psyfleman dreads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 I can't agree, against Greater Daemons and daemon Princes the psilencer is the superior weapon. i agree in every other case the psilencer is useless. Does that include the AP and Rending of the Psycannons, and the ability to get 2 shots out on the move? personaly i don't use them because i hate the fluff. I kill you with MIND bulets! *facepalms* I love the fluff! :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormTAG Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Psilencer is a worst weapon EXCEPT for maximum kill potential, obviously. If your dice are on fire, you have a higher kill potential than the Psycannon. Plus, they're cheaper. A Mastercrafted version of each would probably favor the Psycannon, since it has less shots, so more hits would mean more coming from the S7/AP4 weapon than the S4/AP- one. But yes, a Psilencer will kill daemons better, unless those Daemons have Armor saves. If they have armor saves, the Psycannon probably wins out. If I remember right, very few Daemons have armor saves, so... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2713794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Purgation squads are definitely worth serious consideration. I'm considering taking a squad or two in razorbacks. Keep the TLHB turret but give the vehicle psybolt ammo. 50 pts of cheap but awesome dakka at 36". :) Give the unit 4 psycannons. Deploy the unit as far forward as you can. Depending on enemy deployment, either run the razorback a full 12" upfield and pop smoke, or just go 6" and prepare to fire the TLHB. Dump out the purgators behind the hull of the vehicle and LET 'ER RIP! Your opponent can't see your firepower, just the razorback. :devil: Which is also a significant weapon in its own right. :devil: Sure, the target unit will be guaranteed at least a 4+ cover save, but I don't think that's gonna matter with 4 psycannons firing on them. Wounds (or hits on vehicles) are likely to get through. And that's only going to get more true because in subsequent turns your psycannon fire will double its output. Except giving the enemy a free cover save is just retarded. Also, your tiny 5-man squad just quite easy to kill, once the enemy manoeuvre around an assault/get LOS with a shooty unit onto you. Thats the problem with theory-hammer. You go 'ooh look this would so work and be quite nasty', then you go play it and it fails hard. Same reason why I'm over Strike squads, they land, get one good shooting phase in, then get shot+counter-assaulted to death (whereas Terminators at least live a bit longer and are quick with free halberds). 'Astral Aim' will make noobs cry, because they'll claim hax, but in competitive play I just don't see the point. Purifiers do the same job, but also function as an assault unit (they're as scary as Terminators in close-combat). The whole 'hide behind objectives' trick works until you get outmanoeuvred, which is perfectly possible as many armies are faster than your Knights. Never! Psycannons wound most Dameons on a 2+ anyway. And you can rend away the 'crushers Armour saves. Pislencers are worse than Psycannons in every respect. This. Psilencers are complete garbage, they basically started out trying to make an anti-horde weapon, then tried to make it anti-Daemon, then failed hard at either. The worst part is, unlike all our other specials (except conversion beamer), there is no Assault mode. Grey Knights already struggle with anti-tank as it is, taking psilencers is a waste. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2714015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Except giving the enemy a free cover save is just retarded. Smart players give almost their entire army -- vehicles included -- cover saves as it is. How many non-cover shots are you getting into enemy vehicles these days? Not much, I would hazard. I know I rarely get free shots on anything not a Valkyrie or Stormraven. Also, your tiny 5-man squad just quite easy to kill, once the enemy manoeuvre around an assault/get LOS with a shooty unit onto you. Thats the problem with theory-hammer. You go 'ooh look this would so work and be quite nasty', then you go play it and it fails hard. You make it sound like people who will play with these units are idiots and won't know how to maneuver their own army while their opponents will. If you don't see the strength of being able to shoot while out of line of sight of the enemy, try convincing Tyranid players how awful hive guard are. :P Yes, 5 marines of any kind are easy to kill. In a vacuum. Clearly one wouldn't shove just one or even two of these units into the midfield without the support of an entire army around them. :P Target saturation is key to playing any army. Is there a reason why this must be explained here, specifically? I take it as a given at all times. The B&C is full of quality army lists that are MSU. The armies that just competed for the Adepticon Championships are MSU armies. The SW army that won it used 5-man units extensively, almost exclusively. Same reason why I'm over Strike squads, they land, get one good shooting phase in, then get shot+counter-assaulted to death (whereas Terminators at least live a bit longer and are quick with free halberds). There is more than one way to use a Strike Squad. I for one am not advocating throwing them away on useless deep striking missions. :lol: I would also think it's obvious that Strikers and Termies aren't comparable. If they were, there'd be no reason to include both of them in the codex. They both have purposes, distinct purposes. Sometimes one will be better than the other, depending on the context of the entire army list. 'Astral Aim' will make noobs cry, because they'll claim hax, but in competitive play I just don't see the point. Purifiers do the same job, but also function as an assault unit (they're as scary as Terminators in close-combat). The whole 'hide behind objectives' trick works until you get outmanoeuvred, which is perfectly possible as many armies are faster than your Knights. I love Purifiers as much as the next guy. But they are not THE BESTEST UNIT IN THE CODEX. They are merely another very good unit with excellent utility in a codex packed with such units. Purifiers are not a priori "better" than Strike Squads or any other unit. It is very shortsighted to claim otherwise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2714201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfire Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 From a theoryhammer perspective, I'm thinking there's a definite place for Purgation squads. There are two significant advantages that I see. They've got much better heavy weapon density, and they've got Astral Aim. It costs about 2/3 as much to get 4 psycannons from Purgation squads. Yes, they're not as good in combat, but why are you worrying about combat in 1) an army that has so much CC potential elsewhere, and 2) unit that has 4 psycannons! If you want them in Troops slots you'll have to add in Crowe's cost as well, which makes them even more expensive. As for Astral Aim, it's a power with incredible potential. With as plentiful as cover saves are these days, I don't feel the disadvantage is all that great. Especially against things with a 3+ or better armour save, where the cover save won't matter on 5/6 of the wounds delivered. And how can you complain about a unit getting a cover save, when without this power you wouldn't be able to shoot them at all?!? Something I just thought of: an attached Inquisitor with Gravition Gun in a corner would benefit from Astral Aim as well. That's probably the only way to get a useful graviton gun in the GK codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2714238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nian Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 The reason why I am asking about master crafting a Psilencer is that the potential kills vs a horde is high, does that give any statistical advantage over the psycannon? Remember that a psilencer + master craft, is 5 points cheaper than a psycannon. Whats the math hammer like with a psilencer+mc vs a generic psycannon? I think the psilencer would be better point wise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226497-purgation-squads/#findComment-2714472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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