To kill a Grey Knight

[kittenofdeath]

I've been thinking long and hard on how to counter the Grey Knights, on some levels they're just another inferior quality marine army (unlike the glorious Wolves) but they easily have enough differences that they can’t just be handled with the same old tactics as a regular army, similar to the way an all terminator army has to be handled differently to a mass amount of power armour or a mech list.

 

So this brings me to wonder what new skills must I develop as a general to counter them?

 

Long range is an obvious weakness for them, though they do have a number of ways to get to you quick, not to mention a few nasty tricks such as the psybolt riflemen (dreads with 4 s8 twin linked shots for those who don’t know) so long fangs are an obvious choice as always, though more focused towards ap2-3 rather than massed shots, I think plasma cannons will make quite a good impact against most of their units, with exceptions such as paladin units (2 wound terminator units) but at least it will negate their FnP.

 

If I were a Grey Knight player, I would imagine my optimum positions to be either 23 inches away, or in close combat. If a points equivalent number of GK strike dudes (their basic troop guys) is sitting at 19-23 inches away, they will probably outshoot Grey Hunters, not by that much, but I'm pretty sure they will. And while Grey Hunters will turn the tables on them if they get within range of 12 inch rapid fire goodness, there is no effective way to do so if they GKs are where they should be, at 19 or over the Grey Hunters can’t get within rapid in one turn, which means attempting to do so will take away a turn of shooting, and the Knights can just move back again anyway, if you try to run in order to close the gap, all you'll do is put yourself in charge range, meaning the Knights can fire all their guns in to you and then charge with a metric butt ton of power weapon attacks, which grey hunters do not like. While point for point, the Hunters will give as good as they get in CC with a little luck, as I said, they would have been on the bad end of the shooting phase for a while, so its probably not looking good for the Hunters by this point. This kind of thing leads me to wonder what to do with my masses of Grey Hunters now, plasma spam rhino rush? bunkering down on objectives and hoping for the best? or just go utter GH spam and pray they don’t have enough shots... I just don’t know.

 

Another thing to worry about are terminators, not their ones, mine, their main advantage is a 2+save, but with specialised demon hunting power weapons (amusing, since there are almost no demons with armour) a 2+ save isn’t that great, especially with storm shields costing so much for us, against grey knights I don’t see much use for them aside from assault cannon and CML delivery systems.

 

It’s not all bad news though, saga of the bear is golden against them, and we have some of the best psychic defence in the game between runic weapons and wolf tail charms (I don’t think I'm ever not going to take Najl, 3+ is going to be awesome) and with our points costs being a fraction of theirs, we can easily outnumber them. And depending on how hard you want to play, there are a number of tricks we can pull against them, Arjacs hammer and Jaws will make short work of dreadknights, even better if they take personal teleporters (no more plus 1 for monstrous creature) and depending on whether or not it stacks, an allied witch hunter inquisitor with psychic hood can further reduce they powers (also, on a side note, hammer of the witches, the psychic power from witch hunters, will seriously hurt most Grey Knight builds)

 

So my wolfen fellows, what are your thoughts? How will you deal with the latest of matt wards creations?

[Grey Mage]

Ill be playing drop pods more often than I already do. Against a GK player the main thing is going to be annihilate their unit before it hits you. So either castle up and make him eat every ounce of your firepower or hit him hard before he sees you coming.

 

Plasma-hunter packs are perfect for this kind of job, and taking a plasma pistol looks better than ever.

 

Because of how force weapons work I expect that after the initial burst of 'this is all I have' halberds well see only one or two in a squad, mostly regular NFWs for the rest. Theyll hurt, but not as bad as they could.

 

My Dreadnaughts will be working overtime, and Ill be finally finishing up those plasma-cannon long fangs Ive been meaning to assemble for forever. I might be switching out half my missiles to plasma if they become the hot ticket around here... its already been a thought since more people are switching to BA recently.

[Prot]

That's interesting Grey Mage.... because I see myself taking less Pods. lol

 

I do however see myself doubling up on Plasma, and staying away. Like I've said in the past, originally I felt VERY confident as a Wolf player in close combat. Now I feel we are teir 2. So in purely a competitive perspective I see my army gravitating towards a shooty-counter assault army.

 

No more strong army through games. The BA and GK alike are just going to punish me for it. I think the GK are going to put a LOT of power armour on the defensive. With Pods being forced in on turn 1, and the fact GK have some flanking tricks.... I think more times than not they will be dictating the assault.

 

Just my rough thoughts for now.

[skoll]

and with our points costs being a fraction of theirs, we can easily outnumber them.

 

So my wolfen fellows, what are your thoughts? How will you deal with the latest of matt wards creations?

 

see thats not quite true, our point cost is 25% less than theirs (our GH cost 15 points towards their units 20 points) halberds are 5+ per model and tough 250 points for 10 models seems like a lot, when you consider all have storm bolters,power weapons with the possibility of instagib , hammer hand psychic power and strike at i6 .thats a bargain, our wolf guard with reg power weapons would cost 280 for a squad of 10 dayum.

 

Tough i must agree with you, the key to winning this battle is staying away. I like the arjac idea tough , and like you said sadly our storm shields are expensive as god knows what (are ours diamond encrusted or something?). Even tough it goes against my morals and the viking feel the space wolves have(we are made to seem like a cc army yet they been leaving us in the dust for a while now), staying away will be the best idea, and we gonna have to put them wonderful long fangs on over time.

[Decoy]

Same thing we do against any other Marines. Shoot 'em first, then worry about Assault. The only difference between Gray Knights and regular Marines is their close combat ability. In reality, the Grays don't have much of a leg-up in terms of firepower, while we have the distinct advantage of being able to pour fire downrange while maintaining a static castled gunline. As it has already been said, Plasma will be the order of the day, perhaps with a few mixed-in Meltas (Insta-gibbed Paladins), but ultimately, very little will change.

 

What -will- need to change will be our reliance or use of Psychic powers. To wit, we need to be able to affect the tabletop without worrying about those same effects falling short, thanks to Gray Knight psychic hoods. Along this line, I intend to use Njal for a significant while. He offers a board-affecting non-Psychic ability, as well as standard psychic powers, and the ability to negate other Psychic powers (read; entire Gray Knight army) on a 3+. Moreover, Wolf Tail Talismans will be a cheap way to stop a few of those more annoying powers from smackin' us about the chops. Storm Caller will find a renewed love in any good Wolf army, and Hurricane might make a few grand steps forwards to slow down those ever-annoying Paladin squads.

 

However, by and large, I don't think our overall style needs to change much, if at all. My list has yet to change since the dawn of the Grays, and I have yet to lose to them in a total of thirteen games. (Pally heavy, the standard Leo-Strut Dreadknight list, All-Termies, PA Grays, et cetera.) Plasma on 6 Hunter squads, Lasplas/Heavy Flamer Razors, 2 squads of Plasma Long Fangs. Hell, I think the most I lost against the new Grays was... three or four squads of Hunters. Everything else was just fine and was quite capable of dismantling the Grays.

 

TL;DR version: Knights are nothing to worry about. They just require a bit more care in Close Combat. Other than that, they're like Khorne/Slaanesh Lite.

[narf]

Kittenof death wrote

 

"Arjacs hammer and Jaws will make short work of dreadknights, even better if they take personal teleporters (no more plus 1 for monstrous creature) and depending on whether or not it stacks"

 

 

 

I dont think this will work, as they dont loose being MC's, they just become Jump infantry as well, so 2d6 aP on tanks, and ignore Jaws as they are JI, or still get he +1 for being MC's

[Grey Mage]

Kittenof death wrote

 

"Arjacs hammer and Jaws will make short work of dreadknights, even better if they take personal teleporters (no more plus 1 for monstrous creature) and depending on whether or not it stacks"

 

 

 

I dont think this will work, as they dont loose being MC's, they just become Jump infantry as well, so 2d6 aP on tanks, and ignore Jaws as they are JI, or still get he +1 for being MC's

No- they dont become Jump Infantry at all is the proper response, if your opponent isnt goint to play with the more common sense- moves like jump infantry- way.

 

Why? Because, RAW, a dreadknight cant use a personal teleporter- only interceptor squads can.

 

That's interesting Grey Mage.... because I see myself taking less Pods. lol

Im going with more pods because I want to dictate the flow of battle by removing the squads of my choice, starting turn 1. Itll be bloody, but theyre outnumbered and out gunned in the marine-killing department. Their CC is certainly scary, but with good targetting I feel that there wont be enough of them left to carry the day.

 

Certainly not with the lists the locals are throwing down. Light on bodies, high on killin.

[Spacefrisian]

Anyone else thought about simply outnumbering them? 15 BC with Wg and hq+ wolves seem a good start for simply swarmin those small units to death. And if they have 10 men squads it only means you have less targets to fight and you could even overkill swarm them if needed.

[skoll]

I dont think that be the greatest of ideas , even if a few live they can wreck havoc on that squad, I figure your thinking something like 15 blood claws and a wolf priest or 15 + ragnar for the furious charge?

 

Honestly if we are going to hit em in close combat then might as well throw in someone who can match em, wolf guard with power weapons, and ragnar...... if the GK dont have halberds we'll be hitting first and what a hit it will be on the charge thats a possible 66 attacks with a minimum of 46 , all of them power weapons. after all 15 BC with no upgrades=225 points, i believe a power fist bumps us up to 240?(is it 15 or 25 for bc i dont have codex with me) for 40 more points you get almost same number of attacks but they are all power weapons. Then again i guess in theory the BC are also good since you get 20 more attacks than the wolf guard. (and again 60 attacks is nothing to laugh at)

[Natanael]

I dont think I'll change much in my army lists for the GK. Adding some more plasma, maybe, as you said, but without opting your list just against them (as you cant do in a tourney) I think that I'll just stick with the ML long fangs, 2-3 Rhino squads of GH and my TWC lords to bring the hurt. TDA is my main problem, but that can be solved by frag missiles and massed bolters. I just hope I dont get to face the double-LR-summoning list that a guy at my club runs :P I hate LRs.

 

As you guys said they are marines with lots of CC toys. Play SW like they are supposed to be played - close range firepower and counter-assault - and I think you will be fine.

 

- Natanael

[Wildfire]

Watched the tail end of a battle between SW and GK today. I certainly wouldn't call the GK one optimized by an stretch, but it did include a NDK, two psyflemen, Driago and 5 Pallies, and a bunch of slogging Strike squads. SW took a GH foot horde and 3 full LF missiles with a rune priest. No transports of any kind on either side.

 

From what I gather, the LF just crippled/killed the psyflemen straight away, then slaughtered squad after squad of Strike Squads. Not sure how the NDK died (maybe the rune priest Jawsed him?), but he basically deployed his GH forward then walked backwards wherever the pallies advanced. I don't think the GH ever did anything but retreat, maybe fire a round or two of long range fire before having to move back to get out of charge range of the pallies. End score was 6-2 SW, and one of those KPs was the RP.

[Grimtooth]

I dont think I'll change much in my army lists for the GK. Adding some more plasma, maybe, as you said, but without opting your list just against them (as you cant do in a tourney) I think that I'll just stick with the ML long fangs, 2-3 Rhino squads of GH and my TWC lords to bring the hurt. TDA is my main problem, but that can be solved by frag missiles and massed bolters. I just hope I dont get to face the double-LR-summoning list that a guy at my club runs :lol: I hate LRs.

 

As you guys said they are marines with lots of CC toys. Play SW like they are supposed to be played - close range firepower and counter-assault - and I think you will be fine.

 

- Natanael

 

This is about it for me too.

 

I currently run 3 sets of meltaguns x2. I will probably swap out a set for plasmaguns and maybe add a plasma pistol to one of my TWC since the wound allocation makes is already there.

 

Las/plas is already on my Long Fangs Razorback and they will keep their missile launchers.

 

My thunderlord and TWC will probably just chill. Ready to smoke a dreadknight that gets to far ahead of the GK force or any squad that is leftover from Grey Hunter packs firing for effect before dropping back.

[Prot]

I don't know about TWC. Too many horror stories, but I have yet to play GK... so who knows.

 

I will say I think the more expensive units you buy, this plays into the GK scheme nicely, and they'll probably make you pay for it. I think the GK's are 'the' small elite army of the day. Last week it was Blood Angels, but now I think that title is going to GK's.

 

So I personally believe that building a small, elite army, that isn't GK is probably going to work out quite well for the GK player. I think there are standard things Wolves do well and we shouldn't deviate from those things, but I honestly find it harder and harder to be elite heavy (expense wise) and _aggressive_ since BA and now GK have come out.

 

I hate to say it but I feel defensive and re-actionairy is best with a dash of super-shooty. You'll always have to go after the likes of IG so you can't over do it though.

[Natanael]

I dont know were you get that we should be a small elite army. SW are cheap, have lots of options to be able to do anything and work best in unison, not as deathstars or superkillers (altough, we can do that quite well also). No offence meant to you, but I think that is what is the problem for a lot of ppl playing wolves. Trying to play heavy assault with a force that is made for close up fire and counter-attack does not work as well as dedicated assault armies (BA, GK, Khorne etc).

 

And by TWC I mainly talk about Lords with Claw, SS and WTN to use against units that dont have many halberds. Striking at I5 with 6 S5 attacks that hit on 3+, wound on 3+ with reroll will mess them up, no matter how assault oriented they are. But that is all if you manage to strike first :P The two pet dogs are vital here tough, to keep the wounds from incoming fire at a minimum.

 

- Natanael

[Grey Mage]

Thing is, its alot of force weapons- and nemesis halberds means no other marine can count on being able to go first against them.

 

Of course, if its in your force you make do with what youve got. Just have to be alot more careful about picking your targets.

[Prot]

I dont know were you get that we should be a small elite army. SW are cheap, have lots of options to be able to do anything and work best in unison, not as deathstars or superkillers (altough, we can do that quite well also). No offence meant to you, but I think that is what is the problem for a lot of ppl playing wolves. Trying to play heavy assault with a force that is made for close up fire and counter-attack does not work as well as dedicated assault armies (BA, GK, Khorne etc).

 

- Natanael

 

I'm not sure if you're referring to my post? If so you are basically agreeing with me.... I am saying I don't find the future of Wolves to be one of using small, elite style force org lists.

 

To quote myself:

So I personally believe that building a small, elite army, that isn't GK is probably going to work out quite well for the GK player. I think there are standard things Wolves do well and we shouldn't deviate from those things, but I honestly find it harder and harder to be elite heavy (expense wise) and _aggressive_ since BA and now GK have come out.

 

What I'm saying by this is I really think the Wolves will have to diversify rather than play a toe to toe match vs. every opponent as I believe a fair number of people have been doing.

 

Depending on the size of the army, I really think we'll see TWC lists drop off the tournie scenes while GK's are hot.

[Grimtooth]

I don't know about TWC. Too many horror stories, but I have yet to play GK... so who knows.

 

I will say I think the more expensive units you buy, this plays into the GK scheme nicely, and they'll probably make you pay for it. I think the GK's are 'the' small elite army of the day. Last week it was Blood Angels, but now I think that title is going to GK's.

 

So I personally believe that building a small, elite army, that isn't GK is probably going to work out quite well for the GK player. I think there are standard things Wolves do well and we shouldn't deviate from those things, but I honestly find it harder and harder to be elite heavy (expense wise) and _aggressive_ since BA and now GK have come out.

 

I hate to say it but I feel defensive and re-actionairy is best with a dash of super-shooty. You'll always have to go after the likes of IG so you can't over do it though.

 

The problem in your summary here is that if you build your list to beat GK then you are building a list to lose to other armies.

 

It isn't about changing your list to beat GK, it is about changing your tactics to beat GK.

[Prot]

I don't know about TWC. Too many horror stories, but I have yet to play GK... so who knows.

 

I will say I think the more expensive units you buy, this plays into the GK scheme nicely, and they'll probably make you pay for it. I think the GK's are 'the' small elite army of the day. Last week it was Blood Angels, but now I think that title is going to GK's.

 

So I personally believe that building a small, elite army, that isn't GK is probably going to work out quite well for the GK player. I think there are standard things Wolves do well and we shouldn't deviate from those things, but I honestly find it harder and harder to be elite heavy (expense wise) and _aggressive_ since BA and now GK have come out.

 

I hate to say it but I feel defensive and re-actionairy is best with a dash of super-shooty. You'll always have to go after the likes of IG so you can't over do it though.

 

The problem in your summary here is that if you build your list to beat GK then you are building a list to lose to other armies.

 

It isn't about changing your list to beat GK, it is about changing your tactics to beat GK.

 

Whoa... that is incredibly miss interpreted. I even said above and again I guess I have re-quote my quote!....

 

I hate to say it but I feel defensive and re-actionairy is best with a dash of super-shooty. You'll always have to go after the likes of IG so you can't over do it though.

 

I play a lot of Orks. I certainly know the dangers of slapping your eggs in one basket.

 

In fact I don't anticipate playing too many 'maximized' GK lists which will probably feature (drum roll please) no Grey Knights.

 

I'll reduce my summary into this (of course there are exceptions but such is the price of summarizing:)

 

Before BA and GK, I believe Wolves were Teir 1 assault guru's. Now in the post era, the lists have to be prepared to play a very balanced list. And the more points you put into individual units, the smaller your list gets. The smaller your list gets, the worse off I think you are. Before those two codices not a lot of armies could handle small, fiercely aggressive Wolf lists... now? Different ballgame.

 

Of course all of the above is said with the cautionary note of not doing this at the expense of being flexible!

[Lord Ragnarok]

For those who use TWC, do you see yourself switching to Thunder lords using bear, thunder hammer, stormshield? Bear will negate the force weapons and with most GK players probably taking halberds, they'll be at +5 for their inv. Not something I think they'd like to face after all the jotww, plasma and massed bolters shots.

[Natanael]

I dont know were you get that we should be a small elite army. SW are cheap, have lots of options to be able to do anything and work best in unison, not as deathstars or superkillers (altough, we can do that quite well also). No offence meant to you, but I think that is what is the problem for a lot of ppl playing wolves. Trying to play heavy assault with a force that is made for close up fire and counter-attack does not work as well as dedicated assault armies (BA, GK, Khorne etc).

 

- Natanael

 

I'm not sure if you're referring to my post? If so you are basically agreeing with me.... I am saying I don't find the future of Wolves to be one of using small, elite style force org lists.

 

 

Sorry, I misread your post :P I agree with you.

 

For those who use TWC, do you see yourself switching to Thunder lords using bear, thunder hammer, stormshield? Bear will negate the force weapons and with most GK players probably taking halberds, they'll be at +5 for their inv. Not something I think they'd like to face after all the jotww, plasma and massed bolters shots.

 

I think the Claw will be the best for lords, as always, since the PWs of GK are way to hard to get buy if you dont thin them out first. That said, a TWC Lord with Bear, Fist and SS will always be good against NDK, dreads and tanks. I dont think the regular TWC will be as good unless you have 2 SS in the squad. Too much PW/Force Weapons all around.

 

- Natanael

[Godhead]

As far as TWC or Thunderlords go, I won't be changing my set up. Lord runs with frost weapon and stormshield with bear, He normally runs with 4 twc 1 with ss/th, one with ss/ccw, one with bolter/ccw, and one stock standard bp/ccw. The thing about these guys is that with a lord attached, he actually protects them in cc. people will dump more attacks on him, often times allowing too few to hit the regular guys to really be effective. They definately suffer at the hands of grey knights with their ID force weapons and rad grenades, but thats only one army. They are still wonderful against everything else, and i see no need for a knee jerk reaction, and remove something from my all comers list that is very effective otherwise. I'll just have to play them differently. Wolves should pack a decent amount of long range fire power, should be far more than most GK armies. GK's wont get the option to sit back and pick me off. They are a short ranged army and will need to get close to hit their sweet spot. This will allow me to play a counter assault role with not only my TWC, but with every other squad in my list. GK's will struggle to put lots of bodies on the table. Wolves should fare just fine and have all the answers they'll need already in most of their lists. Just my 2 cents though.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Yeah, you should still be able to run your all comers list and just use different tactics, or if you find yourself against more GK's in a all comers environment just tweaking it slightly.

[Natanael]

Indeed. And I still think that SW is one of the best (if not the best) all-around army out there.

 

- Natanael

[Jagermonster]

Mechanized lists are likely to work realy well against GK. As far as these things go they dont have as much anti-tank power as a lot of other armies. Psyflemen are their answer to light vehicles but will struggle ith armour 13 of above (vindicators, predators, land raiders). After that their only other reliable units for the job are NDK, stormravens and Landraiders. All of which are highly visible fire magnets that cost an absolute bomb. The dreadknight is slow the LR cant move very quikly whilst still being effective and the stormraven only has armour 12. Their other options are either not very accurate or are likely to be ignored (orbital strike relay. its strength 10 but always scatters 2D6. razorbacks with twin lascannons. who wants that when your squad deeep strikes anyway?) their anti-tank is far from the greatest and because they are grey knight far less numerous than would be liked.

Lots of rhinos with 2 storm bolters nd lots of razorbacks with assault cannons seems like a good idea to me. their squads in general will struggle to do anything unless they get in combat with their hammers. i'd always look to play it like a Demolition Derby against GK. Transports doin drive by's (even when they're empty) and the occasional bit of heavy armour just pummeling a squad into almost nothing

[Natanael]

I have to disagree with you there. Indeed GKs have some trouble with av 13-14, but not much with av 11-12. And since Rhinos are av 11, both psyfleman dreads and psycannons are very good at taking them out. Same goes for RBs obviously. Especially with some good drops/summonings they will be able to kill lots of rhinos very fast.

 

- Natanael