Gentlemanloser Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 For those who haven't already commented on this in the OI forum. Can Mordrak use his 'Frist to the Fray' rule when embarked in a Storm Raven to allow it to Deep Strike first turn, without scatter? Mordrak can use First to the Fray when he is deployed by Deep Strike and it effects any unit he 'accompanies'. The recent Main Rule Book FAQ states that units embarked in transports that Deep Strike count as Deep Striking themselves, so the first part of Mordraks rule seems to be satisfied. As for the seocnd, 'accompany' isn't defined anywhere. It's not 'joining' or 'attaching' to another unit, nor 'embarking' in a transport. So, does Mordrak accompany the Storm Raven he's embarked upon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 My first reaction would be - No. ICs can't join vehicle units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 5, 2011 Author Share Posted April 5, 2011 First to the Fray doesn't mention joining units. Just accompanying them. Edit: Also Mordrak isn't an IC, so can't join anyone anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 OK, so what's the RAW definition of "accompanying" if it's not "joining"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 5, 2011 Author Share Posted April 5, 2011 Exactly. :cuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 OK, so what's the RAW definition of "accompanying" if it's not "joining"? There isnt one, the rule is currently unusable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Exactly. :cuss So your question is answered. No rule = no use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 5, 2011 Author Share Posted April 5, 2011 So his First to the Fray is totally unuseable until it's FAQed? As he's not a MC, but a unit in his own right, 'attaching' or 'joining' wouldn't apply. I presume they could have stated 'embarking', but left it as 'accompany' to include any other IC's that attach themselves to his unit. But then again they could have just said "Mordrak and any attached ICs". Or the rule could have said "Mordrak, any attached ICs and any transport embarked" instead of the vague 'accompany'. /sigh Would you rule that Mordrak doesn't 'accompany' a Transport he is embarked upon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Would you rule that Mordrak doesn't 'accompany' a Transport he is embarked upon? Correct. A transport vehicle is its own unit. Mordrak may not join a vehicle unit(both due to lacking IC rules and ICs may not join vehicle units). Transports(independant or dedicated) and units(transported or not) are still two seperate units for all purposes. Embarked =/= accompanying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 5, 2011 Author Share Posted April 5, 2011 But if you're inside, you can use all your special rules, wargear and Psychic Powers. Techmarines can repair the vehicle form inside, and Grey Knights could cast Sanctuary from inside. I suppose First to the Fray also shouldn't be used if an IC has joined the unit, becuase 'accompany' isn't the same as 'Attached' or 'Joined'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 So his First to the Fray is totally unuseable until it's FAQed? As he's not a MC, but a unit in his own right, 'attaching' or 'joining' wouldn't apply. I presume they could have stated 'embarking', but left it as 'accompany' to include any other IC's that attach themselves to his unit. But then again they could have just said "Mordrak and any attached ICs". Or the rule could have said "Mordrak, any attached ICs and any transport embarked" instead of the vague 'accompany'. /sigh Would you rule that Mordrak doesn't 'accompany' a Transport he is embarked upon? Unless Mordrak is the guy who can bring ghost terminators with him -sorry no codex at the moment- you cant have an IC join him, as ICs cant join units of one model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 5, 2011 Author Share Posted April 5, 2011 Yeah, he can bring the Ghost Knights. ^_^ And I agree you can't attach ICs to him unless you have at least one Ghost Knight. And if they all die, then the IC automaticaly detaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Yeah, he can bring the Ghost Knights. :devil: And I agree you can't attach ICs to him unless you have at least one Ghost Knight. And if they all die, then the IC automaticaly detaches. No... the rule is "always consists of one unit". If he can have ghosts knights then he isnt always of one unit, just sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 5, 2011 Author Share Posted April 5, 2011 I'm taking that from; until such point as the Ghost Knights are slain, at which point he reverts to being a single model unit in his own right Which would imply that on his own, ICs can't join him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 *sighs* What a horrible, horrible mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan VK Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 "First to the Fray: If he deploys via Deep Strike, Mordrak and any unit he accompanies will automatically arrive in your first turn and will not scatter." C:GK pg40 He is not being deployed via Deep Strike, the Stormraven is being deployed via Deep Strike while he is embarked. The language is essentially the same as Descent of Angels from C:BA, although it is closer to Commander Dante's Tactical Precision. I imagine the future C:GK FAQ will be in line with the C:BA FAQ, which reads: "Q: If a unit with the Descent of Angels rule Deep Strikes via a transport, teleport or means other than by jump pack, can the Descent of Angels rule still be used? (p23) A: No." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 6, 2011 Author Share Posted April 6, 2011 The Main rulebook FAQ adresses that. If a Transport arrives by Deep Strike, any embarked units count as arriving by Deep Strike as well. Mordrak's rule doesn't specify the 'means' of Deep Strike (unlike the Bangles who require the use of Jump Packs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 He would not scatter, but the vehicle still would. An embarked unit doesn't roll for scatter, the vehicle does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 6, 2011 Author Share Posted April 6, 2011 If it works, then he accompanies the SR, in which case; Mordrak and any unit he accompanies will automatically arrive in your first turn and will not scatter It won't scatter as it's included in the First to the Fray rule. But it's all down to whatever 'accompanies' means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan VK Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 If it works, then he accompanies the SR, in which case; Mordrak and any unit he accompanies will automatically arrive in your first turn and will not scatter It won't scatter as it's included in the First to the Fray rule. But it's all down to whatever 'accompanies' means. "Q: Does a unit being transported by a vehicle that has arrived by Deep Strike that turn also count as having arrived by Deep Strike? (p95) A: Yes." BRB FAQ v1.2 I think that is ridiculous, as I take the BRB FAQ quoted above to mean a unit in a transport that arrives by Deep Strike cannot act freely outside of the Deep Strike restrictions ("Of course my Death Company can assault, they didn't Deep Strike, the Land Raider did!" ^_^ ), but I see your point. Is there something other than ambiguous language in C:GK to suggest the Special Rules of a unit carry over to the vehicle they are embarked in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 6, 2011 Author Share Posted April 6, 2011 A techmarine can repair a vehicle when embarked. You can use Wargear, Psychic Powers and other Special Rules while embarked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan VK Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 A techmarine can repair a vehicle when embarked. You can use Wargear, Psychic Powers and other Special Rules while embarked. Using them is different than granting their benefits to another unit. A unit of Grey Hunters does not grant Acute Senses to a Rhino while embarked. The same applies to Thousand Sons with Relentless in a Chaos Rhino, Scouts with Stealth in a Razorback, or Fire Dragons with Tank Hunters in a Falcon. The Stormraven is arriving by Deep Strike. Mordrak, since he is embarked, counts as having arrived by Deep Strike. Unless the meaning of "accompanies" is assumed, there is no reason for the Stormraven to not scatter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 A techmarine can repair a vehicle when embarked. You can use Wargear, Psychic Powers and other Special Rules while embarked. On the other hand Infiltrate does not carry over to a transport, and Scout only carries over to a units Dedicated Transport. Is the SR a dedicated option for Mr. Mordrak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan VK Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Is the SR a dedicated option for Mr. Mordrak? :cuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 It seems you REALLY want this to go a peculiar way. What does your gaming group say? Go with that :cuss But since I have to contribute to the discussion: SR is not a dedicated transport :cuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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