Grey Knight and Landraiders

[StormTAG]

I've seen some talk about transports for the new Grey Knights, now that they get to take Rhinos for PAGK but what about the old standby, the Landraider? Do they still have a place in the era of pretty-damn-accurate Deep Striking and Stormravens? Are Landraiders simply too many eggs in one basket? What about the Crusader with Psybolt ammo and silly amount of high strength firing? Str7 Flame storms? One of only a couple of ways of getting Lascannons on the table?

 

It would seem with the Grey Knight's amazing melee troops, driving a Landraider into your opponent's midst and unloading a silly amount of Force Weapons in your opponent's grill sounds like an awesome idea. :)

[muadib02]

As a fun side idea I plan to run a Land Raider Redeemer, Psyflame, Psybolts, etc. with 10 Death Cult Assasins, a Brotherhood Champion, and an Inquisitor....should be fun.

[tksolway]

I'm at the point where I am thinking Stormraven every time. whenever I think about playing a Land Raider I ask myself if a Stormraven could do the job and it can, plus more. Add in the fact it is cheeper and it simply wins every time. The only thing the Land Raider has going for it is the extra AV, but considering every Trooper and his dog has a Melta these days that doesn't mean much, AV12 with the Ceramite is better when facing the Melta. I've got three land raiders from the good old days, but don't I see them getting used much as soon as my stormravens are done.

 

That being said I built a the Imperial Armour version of the LR Redeemer (with the PsiCannons) a while back and will probably find a place for it in fun games simply because it looks sooooo cooool

[Techmarine Harkus]

I'm definitely getting a Land Raider for my GKs at some point. It's a lot of points to pay, but it gives you good odds of getting your expensive troops where they need to be. I'm thinking probably 10 Purifiers in a LR. It can lascannon up any tanks while it rolls forward, then break into a 12" sprint to dump the Purifiers where they are needed.

 

I have very nearly finished painting a Storm Raven I bought last week, but I just had a read of the 5th Ed FAQ to refresh myself on the rules (I've not played for a while so the particulars are a bit rusty) and I was reminded that if a vehicle is destroyed when moving flat out, any passengers are destroyed also. With that in mind, I dont want any expensive infantry anywhere near the inside of a SR unless I'm pretty sure its not going to get shot down. Now a 4+ cover save for moving flat out is perfectly good for keeping itself alive in my mind, but not if its got 200+ points of troops inside it as well.

 

I do like the concept of a Psy'd up Crusader, but the opportunity for some Lascannons is not something I would want to pass up. That said, it'd be perfect to fill with Death Cult assassins as muadib02 suggested. On the flip side, as far as dealing with a hoard goes (one of GKs weaknesses) the crusader was literally built for it, so maybe it's not such a bad idea afterall. The Psyrifle Dreads can probably deal with most armor, leaving the Land Raiders Lascannons mostly redundant.

[tksolway]

Its not like the Storm Raven is particularly vulnerable. AV12 is quite good, and I only need one turn of moving flat out to get that squad exactly where i want them, in the Land Raider your squad spends half the game puttering towards the enemy. My GK lists have generally had a single squad of termies mounted in a LR to head straight towards the opponent's biggest squad and give them the business end of a halbred. I would run others for the PAGK squads simply because they had no other transport in 5th ed. Now I still want that squad to take care of the nasties, except I get to use a vehicle that is twice as fast, sacrifices almost nothing in weapons (Multi-Melta, Assault Cannon, and Hurricane Bolters, sounds like a Crusader to me) and is even cheeper. if all I have to pay for this is two points of AV I think its worth it hands down, especially when all the melta weapons out there melt the LR just as easily as the SR.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

... but I just had a read of the 5th Ed FAQ to refresh myself on the rules (I've not played for a while so the particulars are a bit rusty) and I was reminded that if a vehicle is destroyed when moving flat out, any passengers are destroyed also.

 

EPIC FAIL dude. :devil: Let me put your mind at ease. The rule you speak of in the FAQ is only for your own player turn. As in if you move flat out and the vehicle is destroyed on your turn, then everything dies. If it is your opponent's turn, all is good.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Stormraven > Landraider in every scenario. 'Fortitude' is lulzy on Raiders, but as soon as someone points a meltagun or dark lance your way, jokes on you when you expensive Terminators have to now trudge into enemy lines like chumps.

 

Stormraven also brings reliable anti-tank (twin linked BS4 multi-melta and lascannon is pretty scary on a mobile platform) in a army who rely on rending from psycannons to break armour most of the time. It also is much faster than a Landraider, has melta immunity and doesn't care about Dark Lance. Attach a Librarian to whatever is inside and cast 'Shrouding' when you turbo-boost (a trick you can repeat later, unlike Raiders who only get smokes once, then get at most a 6+ cover save from 'Shrouding'). Hydras will still blow you out of the sky, but thats one army. Most people will just try and stun you, while they're wasting their more powerful anti-tank on your Dreadnoughts/Dreadknights.

 

Always bring armour saturation in your lists if you're going to include Stormravens. Don't bring one in isolation, it'll just die.

[tksolway]

Always bring armour saturation in your lists if you're going to include Stormravens. Don't bring one in isolation, it'll just die.

True of any army, having only one target means you get all the heavy fire, having 6 targets means they have to split their fire or risk leave stuff unmolested.

[TheReclusiarch]

The cool thing about the Grey Knight army seems to be that you don't need tanks for armour saturation, terminators and paladin works fine to! :)

[Andrew B]

The cool thing about the Grey Knight army seems to be that you don't need tanks for armour saturation, terminators and paladin works fine to! :)

 

Not if they are in the SR/LR.

[Red Lost Soldier]

There are two common strategies I use to deal with enemy LR's, and come to think of it neither would work on a 'Raven.

 

First is simply turbo boosting a unit of speeders in front of them, the LR has to move around (often through cover) or try and ram and get nowhere. Worst case scenario the LR has to move through the destroyed speeders and it has another chance to immoblise.

 

Second is melta, which is not much better than a missile launcher against ceramite.

 

Though the drawback of a 'Raven is you can be shot down by every gun that the enemy takes to kill Rhinos/Chimeras/Serpents/Devilfish etc. This can be done from across the board.

[KnowThyEnemy]

... but I just had a read of the 5th Ed FAQ to refresh myself on the rules (I've not played for a while so the particulars are a bit rusty) and I was reminded that if a vehicle is destroyed when moving flat out, any passengers are destroyed also.

 

EPIC FAIL dude. ;) Let me put your mind at ease. The rule you speak of in the FAQ is only for your own player turn. As in if you move flat out and the vehicle is destroyed on your turn, then everything dies. If it is your opponent's turn, all is good.

 

do explain how you can destroy your own vehicle on your own turn Mr Johnson.

Harkus is correct in his statement: if you move flat out with your vehicle and your opponent destroys ur vehicle in his next turn, all units being carried would be destroyed. HOWEVER, because of the special deployement rules for a SR, you can always deploy (even if moving flat out) so this wont be an issue.

[Red Lost Soldier]

... but I just had a read of the 5th Ed FAQ to refresh myself on the rules (I've not played for a while so the particulars are a bit rusty) and I was reminded that if a vehicle is destroyed when moving flat out, any passengers are destroyed also.

 

EPIC FAIL dude. ;) Let me put your mind at ease. The rule you speak of in the FAQ is only for your own player turn. As in if you move flat out and the vehicle is destroyed on your turn, then everything dies. If it is your opponent's turn, all is good.

 

do explain how you can destroy your own vehicle on your own turn Mr Johnson.

Harkus is correct in his statement: if you move flat out with your vehicle and your opponent destroys ur vehicle in his next turn, all units being carried would be destroyed. HOWEVER, because of the special deployement rules for a SR, you can always deploy (even if moving flat out) so this wont be an issue.

Um, no sorry. You only lose all occupants if you lose the vehicle moving flat out on your turn. This can be done either by ramming, or moving into terrain and failing a dangerous terrain test. Becoming immbolised while moving flat out = wrecked, and only in situations like that do you loose all occupants without recourse to standard saves and the like.

[Gentlemanloser]

Aye. The FAQ makes it quite clear that by turn it means Player turn, as Game Turn isn't distinctly mentioned.

 

a trick you can repeat later, unlike Raiders who only get smokes once, then get at most a 6+ cover save from 'Shrouding'

 

5+ ;)

 

The 'Raven would get the 6+ from open ground due to Shrouding, then +1 to that from Stealth. :)

[ChaosPhoenix]

Aye. The FAQ makes it quite clear that by turn it means Player turn, as Game Turn isn't distinctly mentioned.

 

a trick you can repeat later, unlike Raiders who only get smokes once, then get at most a 6+ cover save from 'Shrouding'

 

5+ :)

 

The 'Raven would get the 6+ from open ground due to Shrouding, then +1 to that from Stealth. ;)

 

If they're in open ground, they get 6+ instead of stealth.

[tksolway]

With AV 12 the SR is technically vulnerable to Missile Launchers and Autocannons etc. However, AV12 is still at the top end of those weapons rolling a 5 or a 6 to get that penatrating hit is hard, which is why everyone has Meltas. I don't know about you guys but the lists I have been facing in the last year or two tend to have meltas everywhere and very few if any other heavy weapons. Ceramite combined with the fact Meltas have crappy range make me think the SR is the perfect transport in this meta. Before our new codex I can't count the number of times my LR has been slagged by some squad with four freekin' meltas in it driving up in their rhino/chimera etc. I'm loving the idea of the SR because its 200 points that seems a lot mire durable than the LR in this meta. If everyone starts using Missile launchers instead of meltas all of a sudden, then mabye I switch back to LRs.

[Daedalus Templarius]

I'll be running a LRR and LRC (psybolt/psyflame) in my game this weekend, and I am generally pretty happy with their performance.

 

Compared to a SR, my LRs generally live through the whole game unless they get melta rushed, however my SR does get shot down nearly every time. So I am yet to be convinced that it is more durable than a LR of any type.

[Techmarine Harkus]

With regards to me earlier comment, I now see that I was in error. I did say I was rusty on the particulars and the definition on a turn is clearly one of them. Also, thank the emperor for that! I'm totally going to revise my plans for a Purifier filled LR to a Purifier and dreadnought SR (egg) basket.

 

My biggest problem with the SR is still AV12. I know its immune to melta, which is great, but it can be hurt by a fairly large range of guns compared to the LR which can only be killed by S9+. What that boils down to, is that a LR has a good chance of surviving a lascannon blast. A Stormraven has a good chance (if it didnt move flat out, otherwise trust me to fail the cover save) of getting wrecked or imobilised, which is the same difference. When I run a LR in my Ultramarine army I tend to find it will last the whole game or die on turn one. Bright/Dark lances are still an issue the SR wins on though of course, and with the recently released DE book, I can see myself facing more of those than I'm used to. I'm going to use my SR at least a few times even if it dosen't seem to be working, and its definitely going to be Reserved to make sure it dosen't get shot down in my deployment zone. A somewhat dificult descision, since its possible you lose probably 2-3 turns of potential shooting from it. That said, if it gets one unit of GKs (safely) into your opponents deployment zone, I'd consider its mission a sucess even if thats all it did. A Land Raider howver, I'd have much higher expectations of. Given the points scarcity in a GK list, I probably shouldn't throw them into a SR if I think its going to die from the offset.

[Decoy]

Just throwing a bit of perspective... Buddy of mine plays a three-SR army with a few other tanks on the ground. I play TAC Space Wolves. All three Ravens are dead on turn one, their cargo pinned down (or out in the open), nicely clustered, in front of ten Plasmacannon shots and about thirty five Plasmagun shots.

 

Especially with Wolves, I suggest taking the Raven with a grain of salt. I've never had one Raven live past turn one, let alone three. HUGE point sinks, it seems.

[tksolway]

If you guys don't see the Melta abuse that I see in my meta the LR might still be the answer, but around here, everything that can take a melta, does and takes the max number of them. Blame the bloody IG mech lists for that. I wouldn't expect the SR to last the entire game, but if they can get my squad + dread stuck in then it has done its job, extra turns of shooting after that are just gravy.

[hmk17]

... but I just had a read of the 5th Ed FAQ to refresh myself on the rules (I've not played for a while so the particulars are a bit rusty) and I was reminded that if a vehicle is destroyed when moving flat out, any passengers are destroyed also.

 

EPIC FAIL dude. ^_^ Let me put your mind at ease. The rule you speak of in the FAQ is only for your own player turn. As in if you move flat out and the vehicle is destroyed on your turn, then everything dies. If it is your opponent's turn, all is good.

 

do explain how you can destroy your own vehicle on your own turn Mr Johnson.

Harkus is correct in his statement: if you move flat out with your vehicle and your opponent destroys ur vehicle in his next turn, all units being carried would be destroyed. HOWEVER, because of the special deployement rules for a SR, you can always deploy (even if moving flat out) so this wont be an issue.

 

I'll answer for him since I saw this last night with a Raider.

 

If you move flat out and fail a dangerous terrain test.

[Gentlemanloser]

If they're in open ground, they get 6+ instead of stealth.

 

any friendly unit within 6" of him, have the Stealth Special Rule. Additionally, the unit benefits from a 6+ cover save even in the open

 

Otherwise Stealth would only be useable when already in cover.

 

It's 5+ in the open.

[Krieghammer]

Well a melta still has less chance to pop a Landraider AV14 than Stormraven AV12, and Landraiders get smoke!

With the Warp stabilisation field i consider LR a Very viable tank and transport since the unit it is carrying is also "summoned along" with the Land Raider.

That, i consider, is the answer to; "but Stormravens can deepstrike".

 

Potentialy you have all around AV14 summoned! Since it can pop smoke, and use fortitude if stunned/shaken, move 12 next turn and assault with your purifiers or terminators!

 

Costs just slightly more points than your Stormraven with upgrades, and is even cheaper in some settings...

[Brother Valerius]

If you guys don't see the Melta abuse that I see in my meta the LR might still be the answer, but around here, everything that can take a melta, does and takes the max number of them. Blame the bloody IG mech lists for that. I wouldn't expect the SR to last the entire game, but if they can get my squad + dread stuck in then it has done its job, extra turns of shooting after that are just gravy.

 

Melta spam in your area hurts a bit, but not that much, since meltas have the same chance to pen the Stormraven as a missile launcher. AP1 helps kill once they pen, but the ML gets more shots off. Either one is going to hurt.