First Thoughts After Initial Readthu and Silly Test Game

[number6]

I actually got in a silly test game with the new codex yesterday after a single read-through of the rules sections. (Still have to read the fluff, and after playing, I need to go over the rules again, if not multiple times.) I say "silly" because at this time, I of course don't own any of the new models so had to buy virtually all my GKs halberds. And that adds up FAST. Also don't have hammers on any units, don't have the number of psycannon models one would need with the new rules (I only own two power-armoured GKs with psycannons currently because, IMHO, it was STUPID to equip the old GK models with psycannons in 9 out of 10 cases), don't have mortis dreads or rhinos or razorbacks, and so on and so forth.

 

So the funsy 2000 pts list was:

 

Grand Master, psycannon, fun grenades (which I forgot all about during the game :( )

Eversor Assassin

Callidus Assassin

Vindicare Assassin

5 GKTs, psycannon

10 GKSs, 2x psycannon, 9 halberds

10 GKSs, 2x incinerator, 9 halberds (in LRC)

10 GKIs, psybolt ammo, 9 halberds

LRC, multi-melta

 

Lessons learned:

 

* The army is nothing at all like the old Daemonhunters. For all intents and purposes, this is a brand new, never-before-seen army. Just about everything I "knew" about GKs -- what they do well, what they do poorly, how to play them tactically -- doesn't or only barely applies anymore. Only my basic competence in 40K generally made the game any kind of fun at all. (Well, it is a crap list. Still. GKs, right? :lol: ) I must unlearn what I have learned. I suspect all of us old hands must do the same.

 

* The Vindicare is ^_^ ;) :blink: good. I mean, SICKENINGLY good. The guy is virtually auto-include. What's that? You have TH/SS termies? Well, there's a guy that no longer gets his SS. And he's dead. You have land raiders? Not anymore, you don't. Damn I hate that Librarian. I think I'll just kill him now.

 

* Interceptors are damn cool and useful. I want at least one unit with a hammer and 2 psycannons. Combat squad it so I have a unit with 2 psycannons for shooty and a hammer unit for sacrificial assaults and annoyances.

 

* The new psycannons are amazing. No substitute for meltas, but are surprisingly effective nonetheless. Definitely better than I was expecting out of them. Must include a BUNCH in any army I take.

 

* GKTs need protection. Badly. As I've said elsewhere, AP 2 firepower makes them cry big tears of pain. I now know that this truth isn't just theoretical, it is definitely a REAL PROBLEM. Why GW won't let them have anything better than a 5+ invul vs shooting yet doesn't provide them with any dedicated transport options I fail to understand. Paladins: they suck as a result. They sound cheesy, but really aren't all that. Just big points-sink anchors on the army. It's the one unit in the codex that should always be avoided like the plague, if you ask me. I love me the GKTs and always have, but I am having a difficult time figuring out how to include them in a list that doesn't also require stuffing them into stormravens, land raiders, or perhaps borrowing chimeras from Inquisitorial warbands. I had a few fun rounds shooting psycannon spitty death while footslogging them, but then my opponent got tired of that, zoomed his melta bikes and multi-melta attack bikes up along with a las-plas razorback and eliminated the GM and GKTs in one swell poop. :(

 

* Warp Quake (standard power on GKSs and GKIs) is tits. Oh, you have drop pods that want to deep strike? Nowhere near me, you won't be. THIS is the power that is going to ruin daemon player's games. It is so detrimental to the way they must play that when combined with a dreadknight to rob even Khorne of their collar immunities against force weapons, .... Well. This :cuss is real. GKs >> daemons. Done deal.

 

* The army is REALLY pricy. People think it's overpowered, but it's a finesse army that is no tougher than any other Space Marine list. It's got fun tricks, potent tricks, but at the end of the day you're still only fielding half as many marines as anybody else. Fewer vehicles, too, even if you go full mech. I suspect the best GK-centric builds will be a mix of foot and mech. But no question: the real power is in abusing Coteaz and taking multiple Troop warbands. That'll make sick armies, pure GK armies like I'll be running -- because it's GKs that make me happy, not puny li'l humies -- will be "good", "decent", and "passably competitive" only. Not great.

[Wahotsu]

GKTs are equipped with NFW swords, right? that gives them an additional 1+ to their invul save, doesn't it?

[Inquisitor Fox]

In close combat only. Both the Nemesis Force Sword and the Nemesis Warding Staff function only in close combat. Otherwise the only better Invuln save is on a Captain or Grand Master. Kinda stinks (my Inquisitor Lady lost her Rosarius too...) but it's what we got. Also no more Chiurgeons for her, but she does have the Crusaders still. Granted a retinue of 11 DCA's with Hammerhand from the Inquisitor charging out of a Land Raider Crusader or Storm Raven will ruin anyone's day worse than a unit of Purifiers (that'd be 44 WS 5 Str 5 Init 6 power weapon attacks, plus the Inquisitor for only 243 points or so, plus the transport. Eat that, mate...) so there maaaayyy be some truth to the fact that while the Inquisition is a smaller part of the Codex, it's a brutal part if done right ;)

[alloyslayer]

The swords only give that +1 save in combat 

[Brother Captain Kezef]

*cackles madly*

 

I was called crazy for my Psycannon-heavy lists, considered mad for using so many. Now I am vindicated! MUHAHAHAHA

 

On a more serious note, i always considered the psycannon the bread and butter gun in the old dex and it seems they are even more so now.

[Gentlemanloser]

Still, we can do Marine spam surprsingly well. ;)

 

A 25 point HQ, and 20 point Marine Troops.

 

That get Power Weapons and Storm Bolters. Beats the pants off of any Marine equivalent. There's no way any other (current) Marine Dex can match that.

 

Our Mortis Dreads are better than any other Marines too.

 

I don't tihnk it's too much doom and gloom for pure GK builds. ;)

[number6]

I don't tihnk it's too much doom and gloom for pure GK builds. ;)

I don't mean to be doomy-gloomy. Sorry if that's what came out of that post! :D

 

No, really, I'm super jazzed for the army. Really. :D It's gonna be fun. And I think I'll be able to figure out how to make a pure GK list work for me. But the limitations that I mentioned are real and significant drags to my expectations leading up to the actual cracking open of the printed codex. Certainly in my environment, you can't go non-mech with GKs and/or GKTs. They'll just get smoked. Mech is required.

 

Unless you're willing to take Coteaz and go Inquisition-centric. That strikes me as a valid foot build -- but there's no room for GKTs in that kind of list, either. :P And anyway, I only ever wanted pure GK or Inquisition as the support, not the other way 'round.

 

And I really really wanted to like Paladins. ;) Really. But I just can't get behind them.

 

I'm just saying: valid pure GK armies can and will be built. I'll be doing that. But the truth is the same for this codex as it was for the old DH codex: the strongest armies will make at least some use of the Inquisition. I admit to hoping that I'd be able to go pure power armour/terminator armour and get something as rough and tough as 'nilla Marines, SW, or BA. That really isn't possible, not right now, not so far as I can see, anyway. (Who knows, a bit more experience and analysis and I might see something new. We'll see. But for now....)

 

So excited, but my expectations have had to be adjusted to reality. I'm already cooking up army list ideas in my head.... ;)

 

In this one sense, at least, the new GK dex is similar to the old DH dex. You gotta use all the assets provided to make the best army.

[Aidoneus]

Interesting thoughts. I definitely can't wait to play more games with the new 'dex. Stupid school... :lol:

 

From the one game I played and from talking over the 'dex with others, I definitely think the way to go is to get as many PAGKs on the board as possible. Like you said, Termies aren't really any more resilient, certainly not twice as resilient. So I'm thinkin' Purifiers, Strikeknights, and Interceptors will carry the day.

 

I wonder if you could expand on what you said about the new codex being nothing like the old one in terms of how the army functions? I see a lot of potential for more specialization, such as highly-aggressive lists with purifiers and storm ravens, but I also see the ability to field a versatile, infantry-heavy force just like before. Why is it that you think our old strategies won't work any more?

[number6]

I wonder if you could expand on what you said about the new codex being nothing like the old one in terms of how the army functions? I see a lot of potential for more specialization, such as highly-aggressive lists with purifiers and storm ravens, but I also see the ability to field a versatile, infantry-heavy force just like before. Why is it that you think our old strategies won't work any more?

In no particular order:

 

* Psycannons are no longer 36" range. This means that GK infantry can no longer deliver long-range dakka. All long range firepower must now come from either Inq warbands or vehicles. If GK infantry can shoot, they are by definition close to the enemy.

 

* There is no shrouding. Yes, there's a psyker power, but it doesn't work the same way at all, and its effects are also limited to a single unit. But army-wide shooting protection is altogether gone. GK infantry are no longer relatively safe from enemy fire until they are within weapons range. If they are on the table, they are in danger of being targeted. Any time, all the time.

 

* Old-school GKs (WS 5, Str 6, 2 attacks, Fearless) are much more dangerous in assault, on the whole, than the new "basic Marine with fancier wargear" GKs. Even though I was forced to equip all my basic GK units with halberds (which even brought their points cost to exactly what the old GKs used to cost per model) -- which brought their Init up to 6 -- and even though every GK carries a power weapon, they simply didn't generate as much damage in any combat I ever had them in as old-school GKs. LD 9 only barely qualifies as "reliable" for getting off Hammerhand, and if there's a psychic hood nearby, forget about it. (And in any case, Str 5 is still not as good as Str 6.) If you've combat squaded or are unlucky enough to have lost the Justicar, you're down to LD 8 for psychic tests. ^_^ So while the new GKs are really very good and points efficient, they are in no way as potent as the old-school GKs, even with all their bling and abilities.

 

Just these three points imply a completely different tactical approach to the game. You can't just footslog GKs on the table any more. They aren't as shooty, they aren't as assaulty, yet they are more fragile. You better have vehicles around to protect them and/or find ways to get them where you need them immediately while still managing the task of supplying target saturation to your opponent. With a small, elite force, this is incredibly challenging to pull off. There is no such thing as a cheap unit; the army will still be outnumbered and must worry about casualties.

 

Unless you embrace Coteaz and multiple scoring Inquisition warbands. That is the one safety valve provided in the codex. It irritates me that Coteaz is such an important unit, but what can you do? I don't intend to use him, but trust me when I say that makes the job of building a balanced, all-comers pure GK list an incredibly difficult proposition.

[Gentlemanloser]

Old-school GKs (WS 5, Str 6, 2 attacks, Fearless) are much more dangerous in assault, on the whole, than the new "basic Marine with fancier wargear" GKs. Even though I was forced to equip all my basic GK units with halberds (which even brought their points cost to exactly what the old GKs used to cost per model) -- which brought their Init up to 6 -- and even though every GK carries a power weapon, they simply didn't generate as much damage in any combat I ever had them in as old-school GKs. LD 9 only barely qualifies as "reliable" for getting off Hammerhand, and if there's a psychic hood nearby, forget about it. (And in any case, Str 5 is still not as good as Str 6.) If you've combat squaded or are unlucky enough to have lost the Justicar, you're down to LD 8 for psychic tests. So while the new GKs are really very good and points efficient, they are in no way as potent as the old-school GKs, even with all their bling and abilities.

 

I've had a totally opposite experience.

 

Maybe becuase I face a lot of 3+ Armour save opponents.

 

For me, the change from S6 CCW to S4/5 Power Weapons has increased my CC killing potential by a staggering amount. Even with the loss of an attack.

[Inquisitor Fox]

* Old-school GKs (WS 5, Str 6, 2 attacks, Fearless) are much more dangerous in assault, on the whole, than the new "basic Marine with fancier wargear" GKs. Even though I was forced to equip all my basic GK units with halberds (which even brought their points cost to exactly what the old GKs used to cost per model) -- which brought their Init up to 6 -- and even though every GK carries a power weapon, they simply didn't generate as much damage in any combat I ever had them in as old-school GKs. LD 9 only barely qualifies as "reliable" for getting off Hammerhand, and if there's a psychic hood nearby, forget about it. (And in any case, Str 5 is still not as good as Str 6.) If you've combat squaded or are unlucky enough to have lost the Justicar, you're down to LD 8 for psychic tests. :D So while the new GKs are really very good and points efficient, they are in no way as potent as the old-school GKs, even with all their bling and abilities.

Out of morbid curiosity I just ran some numbers on this... it's only partially true.

 

Let's look at 3 instances, for ease of comparison we'll use a unit of 10 MEQ as the targets, using both the old PAGK, and the new Strike Squad (for ease of use without Justicar, who merely generates an extra attack. It made for easier math):

 

Old PAGK (WS 5, Str 6, 2A):

20 attacks = 13.3340 hits = 11.1112 wounds = 3.7034 dead Marines

 

New GK with Hammerhand:

on charge: 20 attacks = 10 hits = 6.6670 wounds = 6.6670 dead Marines

post charge: 10 attacks = 5 hits = 3.3335 wounds = 3.3335 dead Marines

 

Alright, not so bad on this comparison is it? We slaughter on the charge, comporable post charge, on a MEQ style opponent. Paying for Halberds even lets us go first and do a slew of damage meaning since we were shooting the whole 24" of our range (1 or 2 volleys) before they got to us the squad is probably wiped out by now, right? Right.

 

However, without Hammerhand the picture is a little more grim...

 

New GK without Hammerhand:

on charge: 20 attacks = 10 hits = 5 wounds = 5 dead Marines

post charge: 10 attacks = 5 hits = 2.5 wounds = 2.5 dead Marines

 

Definately not as good. Not bad, but not as good. We are definately showing a need for Hammerhand to maintain damage output.

 

Where these numbers aught to become telling is against say, a GEQ style unit, right? This would minimize the effect of the newer Strike Squad force weapons versus the non-powered Old PAGK.

 

Old PAGK: 20 attacks = 13.3340 hits = 11.1112 wounds = 9.2590 dead GEQ

 

New PAGK (hammerhand, charge): 20 attacks = 13.3340 hits = 11.1112 wounds = 11.1112 dead GEQ

New PAGK (hammerhand, post charge): 10 attacks = 6.6670 hits = 5.5556 wounds = 5.5556 dead GEQ

 

New PAGK (no hammerhand, charge): 20 attacks = 13.3340 hits = 8.8898 wounds = 8.8898 dead GEQ

New PAGK (no hammerhand, post charge): 10 attacks = 6.6670 hits = 4.4449 dead GEQ

 

Surprisingly enough, still not that bad. There is more of a difference here, the bigger difference is in the 2nd round and later rounds of combat, or if we do not get the charge.

 

The lesson here? Always always always get the charge. We NEED that extra attack to maintain close combat viability. No longer can we count on true grit to save us. If they charged you, you did something horribly horribly wrong.

[Gentlemanloser]

Or you got your GM to give you countercharge. :D

[KnowThyEnemy]

Crowe

Vindicare

10 purifiers: 4 psycannons, halberds, hammer, rhino

10 purifiers: 4 psycannons, halberds, hammer, rhino

10 purifiers: 4 psycannons, halberds, hammer, rhino

10 purifiers: 4 psycannons, halberds, hammer, rhino

psyrifle dread

psyrifle dread

psyrifle dread

2000 pts

add 2 venerable psyrifle dreads + inq w/shiny things for a 2500 list

 

rinse and repeat :D. i agree though, theres a different dynamic you have to take into account when your relying so much on LD values that you never needed to before. i still hold hope for the pure GK build. i only ever liked using the assassins for the sheer bad-assness. However, i DID happen to pick up 60 DE wyches to convert into DCA...but thats more for a fluffy all-assassin army ;)

[KnowThyEnemy]

use purifiers. USE THEM!!!!! extra attack, potential for cleansing flame to dominate hordes. hammerhand for extra special killiness. and all for 1 point LESS than the old PAGK.

 

an old squad was 300 for 10 and the justicar, putting out 21 attacks S6 attacks. now its 240 for either 20 S5 attacks with no saves or 20 S4 attacks with no save combined with 50% enemy wounds pre-CC.

 

with the extra 60 pts you can get 4, count them 4, psycannons for some extra shooty goodness (you lose some of those power weapon attacks of course), a hammer and 5 halberds.

 

so, by comparison (no psychic powers since they're not guarenteed):

 

21 S6 attacks

 

or

 

2 PW S8 attacks

10 PW S4 attacks at I6

8 S4 attacks (8-16 S7 rending shooting attacks)

[Inquisitor Fox]

I'm thinking 11 DCA's with Inquisitor utilizing Hammerhand charging out of a Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer will ruin anyones day. 44 power weapon attacks on the charge with frag grenades, WS5, S5, I6, then whatever the Inquisitor's got. Purifiers eat your heart out :D

 

As far as Purifiers go, yes they do more damage than your basic troops choice. My example was to illustrate power armored troops versus power armored troops. Comparing an old troops choice to a new elites choice doesn't really demonstrate the overall change.

[KnowThyEnemy]

o they're troops in my example senior crowe says so :D . i understand your point, i was just illustrating point values. strike squads certainly have their place and their ability to DS combined with some GM tom-foolery can make them a mainstay in any army.

 

and ill do 3 Landraiders packed with DCA, supported by the rest on foot. don't push me ;)

[Daedalus Templarius]

If you equip your Purifiers/PAGK with psycannons/incinerators, does that take away their melee weapon? What I'm reading makes it sound like it doesn't.

[number6]

However, without Hammerhand the picture is a little more grim...

[...]

Definately not as good. Not bad, but not as good. We are definately showing a need for Hammerhand to maintain damage output.

And that was the crux of the problem in my test game. I simply could not count on Hammerhand going off. I only got it off 4 times total in the entire game. Either fluffed the psychic test or had it shut down by my opponent's Librarian. (LD 8/9 vs LD 10? Fuhgeddaboudit!) Seriously, there is a HUGE difference between testing on LD 9 and LD 10. And LD 8 is simply not reliable at all.

 

The lesson I took home was: GK assaults are not reliable. They may turn out awesomely in your favor. But you're better off going in and believing that Hammerhand is not gonna go off and plan accordingly.

 

For assault reliability and power, you can't beat the old GKs. The new ones simply are not as good.

[Inquisitor Fox]

If you equip your Purifiers/PAGK with psycannons/incinerators, does that take away their melee weapon? What I'm reading makes it sound like it doesn't.

I'm confused as to how you're reading that...

 

".. one Grey Knight may replace his storm bolter and Nemesis Force Sword with one of the following:"

 

That definately takes away the melee weapon.

 

A Terminator does not suffer this problem, but a power armored fellow does.

 

@number 6: I definately see your point about reliability. The old PAGK performed the same, rain or shine, armor or not, very consistant. The new ones behave more like normal troops. Really really powerful normal troops, but there are situations you simply do not want to be in. The older PAGK were more forgiving if you messed up and got jumped somehow. Now... well we have to maximize firepower for as long as possible then make sure we're the ones charging them. Maneuver and deployment become critical. I am thinking that in order to maximize firepower we may want to reconsider the whole mechanization thing, and look at other means of deployment some of the time (ergo: deep striking). Something I'm contemplating as I'm trying to figure out how to work in my slew of Inquisitorial forces with the new Grey Knight options into something resembling a cohesive whole.

[Frosty the Pyro]

remember your not packing 100% power weapons, you are packing 100% force weapons. Force weapons that get a second chance to intant death psykers and deamons, and a vindicare should let you knock out librarians with reltive ease.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm thinking 11 DCA's with Inquisitor utilizing Hammerhand charging out of a Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer will ruin anyones day. 44 power weapon attacks on the charge with frag grenades, WS5, S5, I6, then whatever the Inquisitor's got. Purifiers eat your heart out

 

Pfft...

 

Give the Purifiers Falchions for a staggering 50 S4 Power Weapon attacks, with 50% wounds caused before blows land!

 

(And then you add the kill Libby with Quickening and Might and a Brotherhood Champion, just to make sure! :) Oh and a Techmarine for Rad, Blind and Psycho 'nades!)

 

Now... well we have to maximize firepower for as long as possible then make sure we're the ones charging them.

 

I don't really agree with this. ;)

 

Give them Counter Attack (from a GM) and Blind Grenades and you can make sure you always have the charge advantage! :P

[Inquisitor Fox]

Give the Purifiers Falchions for a staggering 50 S4 Power Weapon attacks, with 50% wounds caused before blows land!

Quality vs Quantity argument :) The DCA's are higher weapon skill, higher strength, higher initiative. The Purifiers can do better against a horde, but the DCA's will excel against elite troops. Much of a muchness ;) Well 9 points cheaper with an invuln save instead of a power armor save...

 

Give them Counter Attack (from a GM) and Blind Grenades and you can make sure you always have the charge advantage! :P

Yes, you can do that.. however then the GM isn't able to make things like Purifiers scoring. This is another argument for using Strike Squads over Purifiers. The Grand Strategy fixes a lot, but we cannot use it as a crutch to fix ALL our problems as it can only fix one at a time.

 

Yes your Purifiers are scoring, but now you want the charge as you can't countercharge.

 

or

 

Yes your men can countercharge now, but it only works on 1d3 units and lets hope you remembered that all your nifty toys can't score anymore.

 

Either way we need a new mental shift, otherwise we're toast. I think the Grand Master will always prove popular, but no matter which way you go there will be inherent problems in your list you will have to address by changing how you play. Thankfully it appears to me that we have an army book that will adapt readily to many playstyles, but each will require us to be on our toes and stay on our A game else we'll have issues. Eldar Marines is still the mental mindset I think.

[Seahawk]

(LD 8/9 vs LD 10? Fuhgeddaboudit!) Seriously, there is a HUGE difference between testing on LD 9 and LD 10. And LD 8 is simply not reliable at all.

Probabilities of successful Psychic/Leadership checks on:

 

- Ld 8: 73%

- Ld 9: 84%

- Ld 10: 92%

 

I don't even want to try my hand at opposing hoods either...I just worked the simple numbers! I guess the only lesson learned is that one can't use their high-number-rigged dice when doing GK psychic tests :).

[Daedalus Templarius]

If you equip your Purifiers/PAGK with psycannons/incinerators, does that take away their melee weapon? What I'm reading makes it sound like it doesn't.

I'm confused as to how you're reading that...

 

".. one Grey Knight may replace his storm bolter and Nemesis Force Sword with one of the following:"

 

That definately takes away the melee weapon.

 

A Terminator does not suffer this problem, but a power armored fellow does.

 

 

Yea, I wasn't actually looking at the book, just reading some of the stuff people were posting about how many attacks they were getting on charge, etc, but also equipping special weapons like psycannons/etc.

 

For my first game, I am just throwing out a ton of different things from the codex to see how I like them. Crowe, purifiers as troops in some rhinos, some unique paladins in LRC/LRR (both, heh, I have 4 LRs afterall), A stormraven, a psyrifle dread, a tooled out dreadknight that is WAY too expensive, and a vindicare :)

[Ashe Darke]

(LD 8/9 vs LD 10? Fuhgeddaboudit!) Seriously, there is a HUGE difference between testing on LD 9 and LD 10. And LD 8 is simply not reliable at all.

Probabilities of successful Psychic/Leadership checks on:

 

- Ld 8: 73%

- Ld 9: 84%

- Ld 10: 92%

 

I don't even want to try my hand at opposing hoods either...I just worked the simple numbers! I guess the only lesson learned is that one can't use their high-number-rigged dice when doing GK psychic tests :).

I may be wrong but I got it as a 58.3% chance of the Librarian blocking LD9 and 72.2% for him blocking LD8. Not good.