Nemesis DreadKnights

[Wahotsu]

So far, most of the lists i've seen for GKs have not included NDKs. Does anyone use them? if so, what loadout and tactica? if not, why? (please, don't say dreads instead. i know of their awesomeness. ^_^)

[Ju'kosian]

I've used 2 in my testlists, I run them standard as they are, IMO all the rest are quite some pointcosting extra's.

Allthough that greatsword seems very nice.

I do not have the intention to run them with shooting options.. except in fungames.

[number6]

Haven't yet used them. But in talks with others over the weekend we reached the conclusion that the best NDK build is the basic one without any upgrades. 130 pts for a 2+/5++ monstrous creature capable of deploying by deep strike is really a great bargain. We are greatly disappointed in the rules for the heavy psycannon. :D Would have been better to have just let it have a normal psycannon. Most of the time, "heavy" versions of weapons get increased strength or more shots. I would have settled for exactly the normal psycannon, or even 2 shots at Str 8 (with or without rending). Or 2 shots at Str 7, rending, but with increased range (say, 36"). But I feel like what we got instead is total crap.

 

We've been similarly unimpressed with the gatling psilencer. If you're going to buy a shooting upgrade, the only one we think is really worth the points is the heavy incinerator. That has lots of potential to hurt models in cover, something that GKs otherewise have only a limited ability to put on the table in any meaninful fashion.

 

I think the greatsword is worth the points, but probably won't take it just to save on points costs.

 

I see no real point at all to the daemon hammer. You're already Str 10, and how often is anything going to be capable of surviving 4 (perhaps 5) S10 MC attacks that can cause instant death? Reducing a surviving enemy's initiative to 1 is the only thin the hammer seems to offer that means anything ... and I don't think it will come up in more than 1 in 30 games.

[alloyslayer]

[quote name='number6' date='Apr 5 2011, 08:42 PM' post='2713788'

I see no real point at all to the daemon hammer. You're already Str 10

 

@ number6 - I thought the dreadknight was only str 6? Otherwise why would it have hammerhand as a power?

[number6]

@ number6 - I thought the dreadknight was only str 6? Otherwise why would it have hammerhand as a power?

I admit to being confused by this. Current consensus with my game group is that a doomfist -- which is exactly a dreadnought close combat weapon -- doubles the model's strength. So Str 6 would be Str 10, no hammer required.

 

What I am not 100% certain of is that, the DK being a monstrous creature and not a walker, if GW fully intends for this to be the case. I don't know how else to interpret the RAW for this, however. It kinda doesn't make any sense for a MC to have walker-specific weapons, but there you are.

 

If the doomfist on a DK is only S6, then yes, definitely, take the hammer. If not ... why?

[Gentlemanloser]

You take the cheap as chips Hammer for the auto Stun at the cost of an extra attack. :lol:

 

But can't help but to echo 6 here. Utterly unimpress by the very expensive Heavy Psycannon (and Psilencers are garbage anyway). I see what they were aiming at. Synergy with Servo Skulls and the like.

 

Maybe if it was still 36" I'd use it.

 

However the Incinerator is pure win. Worth the points for the way it fires (and in essence an extra 12" range!) and melts Scouts, Pathfinders and any sort of large horde unit.

[Ju'kosian]

doomfists are dreadnought close combat weapons and those :

"A dreadnought close combat weapon is a power weapon and doubles the walker's strength in close combat (max 10)"

RBB p73

 

so now the discussion will be that a dreadknight is not really a walker ... will need a clarification in a FAQ

So thank you GW, you guys just shot yourself in the foot.. again.. :lol:

[Brother Valerius]

I see no real point at all to the daemon hammer. You're already Str 10

 

@ number6 - I thought the dreadknight was only str 6? Otherwise why would it have hammerhand as a power?

 

Nemesis Greatsword strikes at S6, regardless of the way you interpret the Doomfist, so hammerhand still has a good use.

[alloyslayer]

Yeah it is a little confusing, ill be using str 6 until they rule otherwise. I'm running two when I get all the army done. One will have a Gatling psilencer and a greatsword and the other will have heavy incinerator and a hammer

[number6]

Nemesis Greatsword strikes at S6, regardless of the way you interpret the Doomfist, so hammerhand still has a good use.

Why? The model still has a doomfist (again, assuming it's supposed to double the model's strength so CC attacks would be S10). On walkers with two dread CC weapons, for example, destroying one of those dread CC weapons doesn't alter the model's strength in assaults.

 

The Nemesis Greatsword makes no mention of the model's Str for CC attacks at all. It simply allows rerolls to hit and wound. Assuming a doomfist is supposed to double the NDK's strength, taking a greatsword doesn't change that. What it DOES do is cost you a single close combat attack (no longer have two of the same special weapons) and instead gives you rerolls. I think that's a fair trade for 25 pts.

[Brother Valerius]

For the same reason you can't use Calgar's power sword at double strength: rules from one CCW don't apply when you're using a different CCW. And these are two different CCWs, you have to pick one.

[archangelCJ]

Nemesis Greatsword strikes at S6, regardless of the way you interpret the Doomfist, so hammerhand still has a good use.

Why? The model still has a doomfist (again, assuming it's supposed to double the model's strength so CC attacks would be S10). On walkers with two dread CC weapons, for example, destroying one of those dread CC weapons doesn't alter the model's strength in assaults.

 

The Nemesis Greatsword makes no mention of the model's Str for CC attacks at all. It simply allows rerolls to hit and wound. Assuming a doomfist is supposed to double the NDK's strength, taking a greatsword doesn't change that. What it DOES do is cost you a single close combat attack (no longer have two of the same special weapons) and instead gives you rerolls. I think that's a fair trade for 25 pts.

 

im not truly understanding how there can be so much confusion about this. they are both individual weapons that do completely different things. the way to look at it is in the rulings of using two different special weapons in close combat (bottom right of page 42 of the mini rulebok).

 

it says that "when it is these models turn to attack, they must chose which weapons to use that turn"

 

 

now here's the thing... the greatsword attacks are NOT S10 simply because the dreadnight has a Dreadnaught Close Combat Weapon, the weapon doubles his strength when he uses it, it does NOT add to his base strength on his profile.

 

therefore if we chose to have a greatsword we do indeed sacrifice an attack AND the S10 bonus, however we get to re-roll failed rolls to hit AND wound, which i think is totally worth the loss. rerolling the armor pen roll is kinda useless as your gonna use the fist against a tank anyways.

 

now that that rant like statement is over i would like to state that that is simply my interpretation of the rules and i would LOVE to be proved wron here, as S10 with a greatsword would be just pure CHEESE!

 

also, i would like to pose a request for clarification. as i have lost the thread above (i hit quote rather than quick reply) i may get this wrong but is there confusion about why a monstrous creature is having a Dreadnaucht Close Combat Weapon, and wondering why the dreadnight is not being counted as a dreadnaught? in teh codex it just says that it just "follows the rules of a Dreadnaught Close Combat Weapon". im just reading that as a fancy way of saying "counts as, but is not"

 

now in this situation i wouldn't love to be worng but i would love to be corrected :)

 

thanks guys!!

 

EDIT: brother Valerius beat me to the punch by like 5 minutres!!!!! RAGE :P

[Hapless]

I'll be gettin in my first battle with GK this thursday, I have 1500 points up and ready, and could probably hit 1850 with only a few add ons. I honestly think the Psilencer is being under valued. I plan to run with two gatling psilencer greatsword builds. 12 S4 shots into anything is going to kill something. Models at T6 still take damage and with 12 shots, in one target (remember Demons are hurt oh 4+ or better) something will die. Put those shots into a unit, and it will suffer losses. Two NDK working together with this load out will wipe units off the face of a planet. The heavy incenerator though I am also likeing with high strength (6) I think that these weapons are the two best and might consider a NDK with one of each.

[Daedalus Templarius]

Will be running one with Greatsword and Incinerator this weekend, we'll see how it goes.

[Grimtooth]

I think the problem with Dreadknights is that despite what they can do, they need close support of GK infantry to really be worthwhile. While 130pts for a barebones one is along the same lines of a dreadnought, it is not going to survive as well as a dread on its own.

 

If an opponent let's his dreadknight get just a little to far ahead of his army, it is going to be toast to any of the many dethstar/mini deathst deathstar counter assault units that each army can put down.

 

Keep the dreadknight close to your GK troops with all their fancy NFW options and use him as the leaiding cc edge to soften up a unit so a GK charge will finish off completely or as the next turn counter to finish off what your GK wasn't able to wipe out.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Dreadknights are made of win and awesome. The two upgrades I would always take are nemesis greatsword and personal teleporter. The former is what elevates him from 'interesting but not that powerful' to 'OMG what the hell you just ate three squads and several tanks'. The latter is what elevates him from 'lol please trudge towards my gunline mr slowpoke' to 'OMG after eating my dudes, you then flew over to the other objective and ate the rest :devil: '

 

Don't take the guns unless you have points spare. If you do, only heavy psycannon. Gatling psilencer is made of fail, heavy incinerator is kinda redundant in an army of storm bolters and psycannons (and nasty assault prowess). Heavy psycannon is quite random, but a nearby servo-skull to reduce scatter can help it start to edge out. It's both better (if you get enough hits, you roll Rending and thus kill Terminators and Wraithguard lol) and worse (if you don't roll rending, AP4 is pretty meh, even though it wounds most things on a 2+) than a battle cannon. For it's price, it's a bargain, but you may need those points elsewhere for a Rhino or some moar psycannon (the infantry version is definitely preferable, as you can never have enough).

 

Ignore the hammer, re-rolling everything forever is so much better.

[Doomaflatchi]

I must admit, I don't understand the current proclivity to take the Heavy Incinerator instead of the Heavy Psycannon. The Heavy Psycannon has greater range, higher strength, Rending, a larger template, and the same AP, in return for the single downside of d6-4" scatter. How can the Heavy Incinerator stand up to this? I can see an exception for the Cover Save, but against anything in Power Armour their armor save is going to be better than the cover anyway.

[Joasht]

I've said this before several times in other posts, but I believe the only truly viable upgrade for them is the Greatsword, with the Teleporter being utterly optional because it makes it prohibitively expensive with one, and the shunt losses some function without a gun. I'm not saying the shunt becomes useless as it is still a viable way to shift your threat rapidly across the board or to contest/capture later in the game (with a GM) if it somehow lasts till the end. The big fat issue I have with the teleporter is that its already 50% of the price of a second Dreadknight. Whether or not that extra speed is worth that massive point spike is difficult to theoryhammer but in a sense, not all that far off from buying wings for a Hive Tyrant.

[Gentlemanloser]

in return for the single downside of d6-4" scatter.

 

2d6. :cuss

 

Not everyone is going to have Servo skulls. And they've got to be still alive, and in the right place for the Blast reduction.

 

It's the ignore Cover that's golden. And the ability to place the Template in such a fashion you can guarantee hitting whole units.

[Fenric]

I used mine last game with both Psilencer and Heavy Psycannon versus a shooty eldar army. Lets just say any unit not in transport or that got forced out of a transport got shot to pieces by this guy. When shooting at one squad he could kill half a squad every round minimum with a bit of luck. Just saying a hit with the heavy psycannon+12 str 4 shots can kill quite a bit. Plus it will be a fire magnet which most don't want to take out in cc.

 

Will try to make him more melee oriented next game with a teleporter to see how this works out. But shooty Dreadknight worked out for me anyways.

[Toshi]

I have not tried it out yet, but I do like the heavy psycannon in combination with the first grand strategy ability (=reroll all wound rolls of 1).

With a lot of targets (up to T5) that will mean reroll all failed wounds!

[iamnothere]

So let me get this straight in my head then. A DK with Sword and Fist is S10, 3A, Rerolls misses, rerolls wounds and ignores armour saves? Didn't think 2 special weapons stacked?

[Gentlemanloser]

They don't stack.

[iamnothere]

Sorted, so S6 it is then :) Or S10 against stationary vehicles ftw!

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

here are your options:

 

1) 2x doomfist for 4 attacks (5 on charge) at strength 10

2) 1x doomfist and 1x hammer for 3 attacks (4 on the charge) at strength 10 with a stun ability for 10 points

3) 1x doomfist and 1x sword for 3 attacks (4 on the charge) may be at strength 6(7 with hammerhand) with re-rolls to hit and wound/pen. or at strength 10 for 25 pts.

 

heavy incinerator gives a range advantage over the norm.

heavy psycannon is a large template so you could hit anywhere from 5-20 models so its far better then 4 shots of the normal kind. its still str 7 ap 4 rend, so its worth it.

heavy psylencer makes your dreadknight act like he has 6 stormbolters, its nice.

 

there is no need to over analyse this unit like you are doing.

 

it simply works as above, no ifs or buts.