Nemesis DreadKnights

[Gentlemanloser]

3) 1x doomfist and 1x sword for 3 attacks (4 on the charge) may be at strength 6(7 with hammerhand) with re-rolls to hit and wound/pen. or at strength 10 for 25 pts.

 

Doh. That's what I get for not reading..

 

The Sword is never S10, but you get the option to hit with the Doomfist over the sword, at S10 with no reroll.

[Techmarine Harkus]

I've got one coming through the post some time soon, but I have no idea how I want to kit one out. I played a game the other day (v Necrons), proxying a DreadKnight but all he did was fire off a few shots (and kill nothing) before getting hosed down by Necron Destroyers. Obviously thats not something to go by, but something I've learnt is quite probably RUN! Give him an incinerator which is a pretty decent weapon and the cheapest in points, and every turn he dosen't look like he's in range to shoot or charge, just run. The only place he's safe from shooting is in combat, so get on with it, with sword or fist.

 

The hammer is definitely out of the question though for me, because I just dont care. IF it turns out the NDK is supposed to be S6 (which I doubt) then I might think about it, but generally speaking S6 (with or without rerolls) or S7 will wound pretty much anything you need it to, and being a monstrous creature means 6(or 7)+2D6 against vehicles (with 4 or so attacks, and maybe rerolls) is probably plenty anyway. For comparison, I know full well a Hive Tyrant (S6) can wreck tanks just fine.

 

One thing that I've been considering is giving it two guns, because as a monstrous creature, it is allowed to fire 2 a turn. The problem is, it's such a point sink I dont want to try it out. Plus as I said above, I do belive that it's supposed to be used in combat. Shame it dosen't have a psychic shooting attack to use up the other weapon a turn.

[number6]

here are your options:

 

1) 2x doomfist for 4 attacks (5 on charge) at strength 10

2) 1x doomfist and 1x hammer for 3 attacks (4 on the charge) at strength 10 with a stun ability for 10 points

3) 1x doomfist and 1x sword for 3 attacks (4 on the charge) may be at strength 6(7 with hammerhand) with re-rolls to hit and wound/pen. or at strength 10 for 25 pts.

 

heavy incinerator gives a range advantage over the norm.

heavy psycannon is a large template so you could hit anywhere from 5-20 models so its far better then 4 shots of the normal kind. its still str 7 ap 4 rend, so its worth it.

heavy psylencer makes your dreadknight act like he has 6 stormbolters, its nice.

 

there is no need to over analyse this unit like you are doing.

 

it simply works as above, no ifs or buts.

I am convinced. Thanks, gentlemen. :cuss

[Astrator]

So, obviously we'll need an official word from GW on the subject, but what's the consensus on playing Doomfists per RAW versus their likely intent?

 

By RAW, NDK's aren't walkers, so they don't get the S-doubling of the DCCW's. However, it seems likely that this was an unintentional oversight on GW's part, and that they should boost us to S10, just like a Dread.

 

It makes for a significant difference, in my eyes. The Daemonhammer's value goes way up if that is the NDK's only way to get S10. Otherwise, I'm not likely to drop the extra attack and extra points for Daemonbane and stunning vehicles.

[Wahotsu]

i've always played that DCCW are basiclly powerfists, but for dreads. is this something i may have read, or is my meta just kinda off?

 

doomfists have daemonbane, as they have Nemesis circuitry.

[Astrator]

i've always played that DCCW are basiclly powerfists, but for dreads. is this something i may have read, or is my meta just kinda off?

By the RAW, DCCW's double the strength of a walker, but NDK's are not walkers. They are Monstrous Creatures with the option to be Jump Infantry. As such, by RAW, they don't get the S10. It is doubtful that this was intentional on GW's part, but it's still unclear.

 

doomfists have daemonbane, as they have Nemesis circuitry.

Even less worth it, then! Fewer attacks and more points to stun vehicles? Bleh!

[Wahotsu]

who wrote this book? seriously.

[Defiance]

The two times that I have used the NDK I have tried the same loadout. Sword, heavy incinerator. And both times he has been the game decider and winner for me. The first time he multi charged a unit of a Herald and skulltaker and 7 juggernauts with my Brother captain and termies dark excommunicationing (ha ha verb?) away the juggy's power weapons utterly changed the assault and pretty much the game in my favor. The second time charging a Thunderwolf pack to hold them up while my said brother cap and termies got there to rescue him but little did they know he didn't need it! smashed the lord and a fellow thunderwolf for only 3 wounds back in 2 rounds! I know this is not statistical data or anything but he seems worth it for distraction factor alone and is non to expensive for what he does. :(

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

Based on what I've been reading, I like the great sword idea with a heavy incinerator. keep the dreadknight running to get him where he needs to be, in combat. At first I was thinking, heck yea extra attack with doomfists at str10 ill be wounding and smashing all things anyway and with ws 5, most hits in the game will be on a 3+,

 

But then I thought about assaulting vehicles, realising that ws doesnt matter against vehicles, what are you going to do against a cruising speed land raider? chances are you wont hit it with 6 among 4 attacks, but chances are youll have a very good chance among 8 total possible rolls on a charge to get one 6. with strength 7 (hammerhand) and 2D6 for armor pen. average 7 for a roll will glance. pretty much assaulting moving vehicles tipped it for me, and heck, if the land raider stays put, I can still put my fist through it :(

 

Also, I dont think I can count on my appendages how many times AACNMTO for my templars have saved my emperors champions skin, even though he's WS6. The reroll is just too sweet a deal

[Wolfbiter]

i've always played that DCCW are basiclly powerfists, but for dreads. is this something i may have read, or is my meta just kinda off?

By the RAW, DCCW's double the strength of a walker, but NDK's are not walkers. They are Monstrous Creatures with the option to be Jump Infantry. As such, by RAW, they don't get the S10. It is doubtful that this was intentional on GW's part, but it's still unclear.

 

doomfists have daemonbane, as they have Nemesis circuitry.

Even less worth it, then! Fewer attacks and more points to stun vehicles? Bleh!

 

Actually, I have a thought about possible use for the hammer. If you are fighting another Monstrous Creature with higher initiative (I'm mainly thinking about Daemon Princes), the Dreadknight is going to suffer a lot of hits with only a 5+ armor save before it gets a chance to hit back in assault. But if it's equipped with a Daemonhammer and survives the initial round of combat, a hit on the enemy will reduce the foe to I1...meaning next round the Dreadknight can wallop it with a flurry of S10 force weapon attacks first. That's potentially life-saving for the Dreadknight in such a situation.

[StormTAG]

If you hit it with a Force Weapon, it should be dead regardless unless you fail your Psychic Test. Doomfists are NFW, right?

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

If you hit it with a Force Weapon, it should be dead regardless unless you fail your Psychic Test. Doomfists are NFW, right?

 

yes

[Wolfbiter]

If you hit it with a Force Weapon, it should be dead regardless unless you fail your Psychic Test. Doomfists are NFW, right?

 

yes

 

That's a fair point...I wasn't factoring in Daemonbane or the Doom Fist's force weapon ability. I suppose the hammer's effect could still serve as a safety net if you flub your psychic rolls or have your powers nullified in some way., though

[Brother Valerius]

If you hit it with a Force Weapon, it should be dead regardless unless you fail your Psychic Test. Doomfists are NFW, right?

 

yes

 

That's a fair point...I wasn't factoring in Daemonbane or the Doom Fist's force weapon ability. I suppose the hammer's effect could still serve as a safety net if you flub your psychic rolls or have your powers nullified in some way., though

 

How prevalent is Eternal Warrior? To use your example of a Daemon Prince, the force weapon wouldn't do a thing because of EW. Daemonbane should still work, though, as it simply instructs to remove the model as a casualty (rather than invoking instant death).

[Whoopxi]

A great example of a dreadnought CC weapon on a monstrous creature. Eldar Wraithlord.

 

I am pretty sure the intent is to have it double str to max of 10.

[Godhead]

Things that a hammer on a NDK would be good against are greater daemons who have eternal warrior and Int 5 or higher, a thunderlord with a frostweapon and bear.

 

However, I would personally intend to just play my librarian like a farseer and buff the rest of the army, so Quicksilver on a NDK for the win. Go Str 10, int 10 ; )

 

As for guns I really like the heavy incinerator. If you put the teleporter on him, he has a 24 inch threat range that you can threaten anything in cover. Pathfinders, snipers, orks (ARMOR 10 ork trucks) that won't get a cover save from the accursed kustom force field. Guard blobs, gaunt blobs, heck anyone busted out of a transport. It is str 6 I cant still pen rhinos and glance front armor and pen side armor chimeras (side armor 10 yet again) I don't need a servo skull to prevent scatter as I get to place the small end of a flame temple 12inches away from the gun and turn it anyway I want. You can rend until you are blue in the face with that heavy psycannon and orks are still taking the same cover save that they would have taken even if you hadn't rended.

[templargdt]

No, I don't plan on using one in my lists. I plan on using at least one Land Raider to move my terminators around and the other heavy support slots will be psybolt dreadnoughts.

 

That said, the model has grown on me. If I buy a dreadknight, I will run it 2x Fists with Heavy Incinerator for horde control. My reading of the book is that the DCCW doubles it's strength, so the fists gives it 10+2d6 for vehicle penetration. And it ignores armor saves. And it's WS5. Really, does that need to be improved on?

[Daedalus Templarius]

Just finished up building my DK, went together quite well, only took about 2hrs.

 

I actually like the model if you leave off the goofy hydraulics and baby harness/codpiece, which is what I did :tu:

 

Looking forward to using it this weekend, still too many dang points though. It better take out a lot of stuff.

[Sabadin]

the fists gives it 10+2d6 for vehicle penetration. And it ignores armor saves. And it's WS5. Really, does that need to be improved on?

 

Pretty much why I sit in the "inentionally does not work on NDK" camp. If it works that way, you now have a WS5,I4,2+/5++ carnifex..for 80% of the cost...

[templargdt]

Yes, but if it's cost effective people will buy more of them, so I don't think GW has any issue with it being more effective than a Carnifex.

 

I'm sure this has been debated in other threads, so all I will say is that if Ward didn't want to have the DK to get the effect of the Doom Fist, I think he would have worded it's gear something like "two close combat weapons" and not mentioned the specific gear with specific rules later in the book.

 

I'm sure it will get settled in the FAQ.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'm going to go with it making more sense that it doesn't get the strength doubling of the fists. This simply makes the most sense given its other gear, and especially the pricing. If the fists give it str 10, then what's the point of the hammer except a few niche occasions? If the fists aren't s10, then suddenly the hammer makes perfect sense. It's said to have the doomfists for the daemonbane and nemesis force weapon effects, but mostly because the model has two fists!

 

If the fists don't give it str 10, it works out like this:

 

Double Fists: Cheap, more attacks

Hammer: Lose an attack in return for higher str and stun

Sword: Lose an attack in return for re-rolls.

 

Each is now different, and suddenly the order they are in makes sense if you consider their point costs. Yes, there is room for doubt about if the fists were meant to double it's str or not. But the RaW is crystal clear. Not only is the RaW clear, it also makes sense given the different roles of the weapons and their point costs. The ONLY reason to think that the doomfists might work the same for a MC as they do for a walker is because of fluff. The only real argument is that they are both big. That's not good enough to convince me when the rules make more sense the other way. Running them with s10 base is really taking the interpretation most beneficial to you, even though it's the harder of the two to justify.

[DeathKorpsman]

If you hit it with a Force Weapon, it should be dead regardless unless you fail your Psychic Test. Doomfists are NFW, right?

 

yes

 

That's a fair point...I wasn't factoring in Daemonbane or the Doom Fist's force weapon ability. I suppose the hammer's effect could still serve as a safety net if you flub your psychic rolls or have your powers nullified in some way., though

 

How prevalent is Eternal Warrior? To use your example of a Daemon Prince, the force weapon wouldn't do a thing because of EW. Daemonbane should still work, though, as it simply instructs to remove the model as a casualty (rather than invoking instant death).

 

Eternal Warrior isn't exactly rare. Most 'dexes have at least a few characters or character upgrades with it. Daemons all get it. The Daemonbane quality allows you to "instantly kill" a daemon (or psyker) if you cause any unsaved wounds to it and it fails a Leadership (not morale, take that Fearless!) test with no saves. Not precisely reliable, but not bad either for an off chance of whacking a greater daemon if you can get in a NFW hit from any random GK. Consequently, if you have a character with psychotroke grenades and you roll the Ld2 thing it counts for this. Murderthon! It would be a really fortuitous roll though.

[Iron Lord]

The ONLY reason to think that the doomfists might work the same for a MC as they do for a walker is because of fluff. The only real argument is that they are both big. That's not good enough to convince me when the rules make more sense the other way.

 

They worked for Wraithlords back when they had Dreadnought CCWs.

[henrywalker]

here is my DK list, not sure about the DK loadouts, might add an incinerator in their too

 

 

 

Nemesis Dreadknight

Psycannon, Psilencer, Greatsword, Teleporter

Heavy Support

305

 

Nemesis Dreadknight

Psycannon, Psilencer, Greatsword, Teleporter

Heavy Support

305

 

Nemesis Dreadknight

Psycannon, Psilencer, Greatsword, Teleporter

Heavy Support

305

 

Grand Master Inpensus

Pair Of Falchions, Psilencer, psybolt ammo

Hq

225

 

5 Terminators

Falchions, Brotherhood Banner, Psycannon

Troops

245

 

5 Terminators

Halberds, Psilencer, Psybolt Ammo

Troops

235

 

5 Interceptors

Psilencer

Fast Attack

130

 

1750

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The ONLY reason to think that the doomfists might work the same for a MC as they do for a walker is because of fluff. The only real argument is that they are both big. That's not good enough to convince me when the rules make more sense the other way.

 

They worked for Wraithlords back when they had Dreadnought CCWs.

 

That's a different unit in a different codex in a different edition that handled things very differently. If you want old edition rules to be a precedent, then be prepared for the entire rule system to break. What was done then has no bearing on how the rules work now.