Mindstrike Missiles

[BigDunc]

"Any psyker hit by a mindstrike missile suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects."

 

Undoubtedly this is going to need to be FAQ'd, but perhaps someone has a good approach: Mechanically, how does psi-shock work?

 

According to the above, if you merely hit a psyker he suffers PotW, no to-wound roll is necessary. Against Mephiston this means... well, he's pretty screwed I think. So are Tervigons and possibly Hive Tyrants. But what if they're in cover? Does such a model get a cover save versus the 'hit'? Normally cover saves are taken against wounds but this isn't necessarily a wound. In fact, PotW says you can't take cover saves against it. But, this is a shooting attack so it would make sense that he would get a cover save.

 

What about a unit that contains an IC psyker, like Grey Hunters and a Rune Priest? Do you treat psi-shock hits as if it worked like wound allocation? For example, say only 1 mindstrike missile hits 5 of 10 models, the Rune Priest is among the 5. Can you allocate the psi-shock hits against Grey Hunters to avoid PotW on the Rune Priest? Can this 'psi-shock hit allocation' be mixed with normal wound allocation?

 

The simplest answer would seem to be that if a psyker is under the template he's hit by psi-shock but not necessarily the fragmentation of the missile. However, that allows a player to effectively "deadshot" psyker ICs and that seems a little exploitative.

 

Thoughts or suggestions?

[Brother Dylan]

My take on psy strike is no you don't get a cover save verses the perils, and yes I believe the intention was for us to be able to snipe psyker ics out of squads with it.

[Flinch]

That's how I played it. Also as a 4-shot frag alpha strike for the non-psykers...

[soots]

how i think mindstrikestrike works

for an example: genestealers with a broodlord are hit by a missile, the lord will take a potw wound (no armour save) as well as a wound from the missile if he is wound(4+) and the squad will get wounded as well (4+) with no armour saves allowed(ap5 vs as5+)

i personally wouldnt shoot at one model, not the greatest chance to hit directly but who knows :lol:

[Eddie Orlock]

Well, based on the text in the original post, I'd play it like this: The missile hit the unit. The number of hits is determined and alocated. If the defending player alocated any of the hits from that volley with this special rule to a psyker that psyker then takes his perils and prays for his invulenerable save, twice.

 

So, yeah, Mephiston is kinda hosed. Your average Tzeentch aspiring sorceror with a large retinue of Rubrics, not so much.

 

Kinda hoops 'Nids, but I guess that's what Tryant Guard are for.

 

Here's a follow up question, how do these missiles interact with hostile grey knights in the mirror match? Are all the marines considered psykers, or is the unit considered one psyker? If the former, how many succumb to perils? one for every model under the marker, or, just the squad leader per the rule that perils only hits him?

[Chengar Qordath]

Brotherhood of Psykers applies, since it specifically refers to Perils of the Warp and any other attack that targets Psykers as being resolved against the squad leader.

[muadib02]

Since you dont allocate hits ....I have been playing it as such. If the Psyker in question is touched by the template after it scatters then the Psyker takes perils...wounds taken from the blast can be allocated as the player wishes. If the template does not touch the psyker, then only wounds are incurred.

[Auretious Taak]

Since you dont allocate hits ....I have been playing it as such. If the Psyker in question is touched by the template after it scatters then the Psyker takes perils...wounds taken from the blast can be allocated as the player wishes. If the template does not touch the psyker, then only wounds are incurred.

 

This is how you play it.

 

The rules are quite clear there - because Perils of the Warp is not a direct damage attack, it is a special effect, you don't get a cover save against it. Indeed, the rules for perils of the warp specifically state that you don't get any armour or cover saves against them, only an invulnerable save and that needs to be re-rolled if successful. Thus I am confused as to why this even needs to be discussed?

 

The psi-shock is in addition to the normal frag missile round that is the physical side of the attack.

 

As to the chap who said it's a waste targetting single models like psykers because it is so unreliable with a blast weapon...1/3 hit outright, otherwise you scatter 3" on average dice...or you know, don't scatter because you are ACTUALLY USING YOUR WHOLE CODEX. I'll let you figure that out.

[soots]

not sure where you saw me say that its a waste and its so unreliable???

i personally wouldnt use a one shot weapon on a single model if i had the choice to shoot at a bigger unit ?

[Lord Ragnarok]

Since you dont allocate hits ....I have been playing it as such. If the Psyker in question is touched by the template after it scatters then the Psyker takes perils...wounds taken from the blast can be allocated as the player wishes. If the template does not touch the psyker, then only wounds are incurred.

 

After reading the mindstrike entry and the blast weapon entry i the BGB, I agree with this. It says in the mindstrike entry that psykers take a perils attack if they are "hit". In the blast entry in the rulebook models covered after scatter are "hit". But, for wounds those are allocated by the effected player. So yeah, wound allocated as the player wishes, but psyker takes the perils. now whats interesting.

 

For additional clarity sequence of events...

 

1. psyker hit

2. Psyker takes peril

3. wounds allocated

 

Sequence agreement is important, as the player may try to allocate a wound on the priest who may be dying to perils.

 

Sorry if this is obvious.

[Red Lost Soldier]

I would say close but not quite Lord Ragnorak.

 

Read the BRB page 30 on blasts, after scatter those are the models that are hit. So if a psyker is touching the template after scatter it gets perils, but in addition to any other effects. Now you allocate wounds, but you could still allocate a wound to the doomed psyker if you like. Then roll saves. Saves are always rolled last, and perils is a save. On page 50 it states that they take a wound, and you roll all wounds together after allocation and such.

 

Repeat for every mindstrike missile before you roll saves, as you resolve all shooting from a single vehicle before rolling saves. Perils does stack as it's a wound. Yes the enemy may stack wounds on the psyker who is already almost certainly dead, but the psyker is dead so it's a win win in my books.

 

This is why mindstrike missiles are going to be great for removing enemy psychic defense, and keeping our psychic powers up. You can't hide in your unit! You can hide in tanks though...

[Eddie Orlock]

It's being discussed because people will get it wrong. It may spring logically from the rules, but it's counter intuative to how most players think of the game. Presuming I'm not too far from normal, I'd cite my own mistaken interpretation from above.

 

This may play out a bit like the Doom of Malantai. If I recall the current FAQ correctly, the word is that you get cover saves from the soul sucking aura special effect, whereas stricter readings tended to say otherwise. Treating it as an out of sequece shooting attack neatly dodged the question of lines of retreat in a transport.

 

'Template Sniping' was a problem in early third, and was corrected. With the assumption that they wouldn't publish something that would allow the equivelent of 'template sniping' again, players would naturally find an interpretation that doesn't allow it.

 

If we're going to get technical on the arguments, it would behoove us to quote the passages rather than paraphrase them. Until I actually see the text and review the material, I might contest the notion that brotherhood of psykers limits the perils effect to the squad leader if we accept the interpretation that it's outside the normal damage sequence. I'd have to read if it specifically refered to perils from the squads pychic test, or just perils in general amongst other considerations.

[muadib02]

Well now that we've clarified the whole hitting thing...

 

as to perils vs GK squads

 

Brotherhood of Psykers....bullet point 2 "if a GK unit suffers perils of the warp, or any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar, or Knight of the Flame (if alive) or against a random non character model in the squad if the justicar or knight of the flame is dead"

So as the Mindstrike causes perils on psykers....just 1 dude (the justicar) takes it for the team

 

Pretty cut and dry as to who takes perils if there is some GK blue on blue going on.

[Brother Dylan]

Well now that we've clarified the whole hitting thing...

 

as to perils vs GK squads

 

Brotherhood of Psykers....bullet point 2 "if a GK unit suffers perils of the warp, or any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar, or Knight of the Flame (if alive) or against a random non character model in the squad if the justicar or knight of the flame is dead"

So as the Mindstrike causes perils on psykers....just 1 dude (the justicar) takes it for the team

 

Pretty cut and dry as to who takes perils if there is some GK blue on blue going on.

 

Yeah for gk on gk mindstrike missiles are going to be a pain, almost a guaranteed justicar/knight of flame kill per missile.

[Lord Ragnarok]

in addition to any other effects.

I took that to mean if you decide to allocate one of the wounds to the psyker then the "other effects" come into play.

[BigDunc]

Thank you for your responses.

 

There's basically two issues here: cover saves and hit/wnd allocation.

 

For cover saves I think this might apply:

Q: Do psychic shooting attack grant cover saves?

A: Yes, as long as they cause wounds. Cover saves are taken against wounds caused by psychic shooting attacks, not against any other 'weirder' effects of the psychic power.

It's arguable whether this FAQ question applies, but MS missiles do cause normal wounds and PotW would be the 'weirder' effect. Pinning could be considered a 'weirder' effect and it's pretty obvious you don't take cover saves versus pinning tests. So, no cover saves.

 

 

 

However, for 'template sniping' the IC, I don't think it works like this:

Since you dont allocate hits ....I have been playing it as such. If the Psyker in question is touched by the template after it scatters then the Psyker takes perils...wounds taken from the blast can be allocated as the player wishes. If the template does not touch the psyker, then only wounds are incurred.

Under the Blast rules on pg30 it does say "all models whose bases are completely... covered by the blast marker are hit (as shown in the diagram)". However the next paragraph, and the diagram mentioned in the previous quote, talk about "hits inflicted on the unit" which weakens the idea that specific models are hit.

Add to that the IC rules on pg49 that say: "ICs that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may not be picked out as targets. If the unit they have joined is hit, the controlling player can choose to allocate hits against the characters just like the other members of the unit."

 

The IC section mentions nothing about wounds, only hits, and seems to suggest a step that isn't defined in the shooting phase rules as necessary, that of allocating hits in a unit that contains an IC before rolling wounds. I'm not sure the sequence for determining whether an IC psyker gets hit by PotW, but it's pretty clear that 'template sniping' can't happen.

[daboarder]

My take on psy strike is no you don't get a cover save verses the perils, and yes I believe the intention was for us to be able to snipe psyker ics out of squads with it.

 

BS!

 

If you get a cover save from DoM whose "NOT" even shooting you, then I get a cover save from these

[Gentlemanloser]

No.

 

You cannot take a cover save for a Perils test.

 

You are only able to make an Invulnerable save (or Ghost Helm if you're Eldar) and that *must* be rerolled if sucessful.

 

You can take a Cover save form the natural S4 hit of the missile.

[iamnothere]

Personally I'm using these to snipe tyrants and zoes, I don't care for your Hive Guard - you're taking a perils!

[KnowThyEnemy]

why are people trying to swindle a cover save for a PotW? you can have your cover save, for the damage from the missle not the Perils it causes

 

the FAQ that was just quoted is irrelevant. mind strike missles are not a psychic shooting attack. you take no psychic test nor does it state it is a form of psychic attack nor imply it (like DoM). swarmlord, im coming for you ;)

 

id also like to remind people that codex trumps brb. Always. if it says you can do it in your codex and the brb disagrees or lends support to an argument against doing it, you can still do it. models under the template are hit. if one of those models is a psyker, he takes a Perils. Roll to wound. Owning player assigns the wounds from the missle. take armour/cover/invs/FnP. But "my psyker is an IC and cannot be targeted seperatley from a unit" you say? brb agrees with you, but unfortunately for you my codex agrees with me. until theres an FAQ that says otherwise, thems the breaks im afraid

[Red Lost Soldier]

However, for 'template sniping' the IC, I don't think it works like this:

Since you dont allocate hits ....I have been playing it as such. If the Psyker in question is touched by the template after it scatters then the Psyker takes perils...wounds taken from the blast can be allocated as the player wishes. If the template does not touch the psyker, then only wounds are incurred.

Under the Blast rules on pg30 it does say "all models whose bases are completely... covered by the blast marker are hit (as shown in the diagram)". However the next paragraph, and the diagram mentioned in the previous quote, talk about "hits inflicted on the unit" which weakens the idea that specific models are hit.

You need to read the whole of that next paragraph:

Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit...

Also the previous paragraph is quite clear

Once the final position of the blast marker has been determined...all models whose bases are completely or partially covered by the blast marker are hit

Also in that second paragraph

...then the controlling player may allocate these wounds on any model in the unit

All from BRB, page 30, emphasis mine.

 

In the diagram, if the front middle orc was an IC psyker, but wounds were allocated elsewhere, the psyker would still have been hit by the blast and still suffer perils.

 

Add to that the IC rules on pg49 that say: "ICs that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may not be picked out as targets. If the unit they have joined is hit, the controlling player can choose to allocate hits against the characters just like the other members of the unit."

 

The IC section mentions nothing about wounds, only hits, and seems to suggest a step that isn't defined in the shooting phase rules as necessary, that of allocating hits in a unit that contains an IC before rolling wounds. I'm not sure the sequence for determining whether an IC psyker gets hit by PotW, but it's pretty clear that 'template sniping' can't happen.

You cannot target them. If you shoot at them with non blast weaponry, the controlling player can still allocate hits where they please. Blast rules specifically state who they 'hit,' then controller allocates wounds.

 

The sentence you are referring to:

If the unit they have joined is hit, the controlling player can choose to allocate hits against the characters just like the other members of the unit

BRB, page 49, emphasis mine.

 

The unit they are joined to is hit, but the IC itself is also hit, though the IC was not targeted. You can allocate the wound away, just not perils. This is specific to this weapon, not justifying template sniping as a whole.

 

 

in addition to any other effects.

I took that to mean if you decide to allocate one of the wounds to the psyker then the "other effects" come into play.

Hmmm, I took it to mean that the 'other effects' are the standard wounds from shooting. Could see it both ways though.

[BigDunc]

I'm not completely sold, but your explanation makes a lot of sense, Red. Thanks.

[Eddie Orlock]

I'm not completely sold, but your explanation makes a lot of sense, Red. Thanks.

I reckon he's correct by a strict reading, but I also figure there's a good chance of a rule changing faq in the foreseeable future.

[BigDunc]

I reckon he's correct by a strict reading, but I also figure there's a good chance of a rule changing faq in the foreseeable future.

Yea... it's the literal interpretation of the rules we're discussing that's bothering me. In order to accept them so literally you almost need to ignore how they fit into 40k as a whole.

 

Like the Blast rules. Read literally they seem to suggest that hits are allocated despite no such mechanic existing in 40k for infantry units. Am I to understand that the Blast rules introduce just such a mechanic by way of a single sentence and completely do away with them in the following paragraph? That doesn't make sense. It makes more sense that "all models whose bases are... covered by the blast marker are hit" is just the easiest way to explain in plain 'ole English the first step in determining the number of dice to roll for wounds and should not be taken literally that individual models are hit.

 

Also, with the literal Blast interpretation and the asterisk for psi-shock, it follows that a psyker hit by a MS missile suffers a PotW and must roll to be wounded by fragmentation. That is the literal interpretation of "in addition to any other effects". This circumvents the normal wound allocation rules for no apparent reason.

 

As for ICs, I think there's too much emphasis placed on "targeted" and too little on the fact that the IC is considered part of the unit and can't be singled out. Plus, the reality is, with MS Missiles we are targeting ICs within units.

 

Yea, overall, though I can see the above reasoning and it works to a degree, but I don't think it's correct.

[Something Wycked]

As overpowered as it might be, it looks like RAW supports a psyker suffering PotW if the template touches his base. The missile says "psykers hit", not "psykers wounded". This would be yet another way the GK codex has of ignoring the untouchable part of the IC rule. (Vindicare does this better, and cheaper.)

 

Then again, if it worked the other way (only a psyker who has been allocated a wound would suffer PotW) the weapon would be useless against psykers hidden in units, and would only be really effective against single model psykers or units composed entirely of psykers.