There can be only one...

[evileyevirtue]

Threads like these always make me want to go " waaaaaa!" That the sound of a baby crying. Just saying...

/rant

 

Any way, yes, giving guys SS who have inv modifiers is broken, and yes we can always add more rules... but there are already enough as is. I mean, I know GW gets everything right all the time... Throw a few into a shooty unit and they become retardedly tough. Your looking at an army that was designed to be in the thick of the melee against almost any army, and that plays out in the rules they're given. What, a 4++ save isn't good enough for you? Waaa...

 

GK are supposed to be in combat, with their +I, they should be tearing apart most units before they get to strike back. Unless your stupid enough to charge 30 boyz with 5 termies... but that's your own Damn fault.

 

Not to mention they did in fact give us ridiculously cheap powers that do even better than a SS... oh yeah. The thing that keeps it interesting is the fact that we carry around a glass hammer that is uber elite. Getting them to combat is that glass portion. It keeps the army decent to play against. Who wants to play you when you have a force that all carry SS and force weapons? If that doesn't sound broke, regardless of cost, you might want to think something a little easier to win at...

 

And even fluff wise, it doesn't make any sense to give them SS. The last codex, how many people had a unit with all SS? I sure didn't. The thing that makes them iconic is their NFW and wrist mounted SB. And yes, they get a forge of anything they want, but they don't manufacture lasguns either, do they? No... because it don't fit their profile.

 

So you can whine all you want about the army not being an indestructible, undefeatable hammer that does exactly what you think it should do... or you can play the game and accept the fact that you have to at least use some of your brain rather than buy something that fixes having to think. Unless you're used to using that "easy" button at office max... then you're screwed.

 

Hmmm... maybe that was the end of my rant...

[Iron Lord]

I can understand those people that did convert TH/SS grey knights in the last codex, and fielded a lot of them, being a bit upset though.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

ow wait, you can't take another weapon when you have a storm shield if you already have a storm shield and weapon X. Only combat shields allow you to take two weapons or a two handed weapon.

thanks

antique_nova

 

 

C:SM FAQ

 

Last page, last question:

 

Q. The rules for both the relic blade and the storm shield

simply state that a model with one of these pieces of

wargear cannot have +1 Attack for an additional close

combat weapon. Is it therefore possible to equip a model

with both a storm shield and a relic blade? (p99, 101)

A. The rules for two-handed weapons in the rulebook and

the rules for storm shields and relic blades are not in

contradiction. So you can have both a storm shield and a

relic blade, which I think makes for rather cool models!

 

All storm shield says is you cannot have the +1 attack for additional CCW's. It doesn't say you can't have 2 weapons, nor use a 2 handed weapon, nor gain any other bonuses derived there-of.

 

Thanks for that. It should be noted that the storm shield is actually wargear, and not a weapon. It just happens to eat a weapon most of the time.

[StormTAG]

Also, there is no such thing as a Two-Handed weapon in 5th edition unless I've missed something. You no longer have a smorgasboard of wargear and weapons to pick to limit what you can carry. You have set, specific options in your army list which lets you have A, B or C.

 

As to Stormshields in they Greyknights... I kinda like that they're not there except for very specific examples. To me, Grey Knights have always been about the Halberds. They even bolted their Bolters on so they can use both hands on their Halberds. Every model that has both hands on their weapon looks infinitely cooler, IMHO, than one that doesn't.

[Justcar]

It is a slight issue really, but one that carries a lot of disappointment with it.

 

Two things that I would have loved to see:

 

1. a 4+ save on paladins. They need the extra protection from all of the melta coming their way.

 

2. Lack of a better delivery system. We can't have scouting Land Raiders or Storm Ravens (because they aren't dedicated transports). We don't even have a teleport assault!! (Big Issue in my mind)

 

I would have also liked to see:

 

1. Justicars that have access to some interesting wargear

 

2. Terminators that have "the shrouding" psychic power. They lack significant transport/delivery systems. They need a little more survivability. SSGKs have Warp Quake, why can't termies have shrouding?

 

3. WAY better adversaries rules. I would like it so that people would actually take them.

 

Of course not all of these would be good if they were taken in conjunction with other suggestions, but you get the idea!

 

However, this isn't the end of the world. It makes the game a little more interesting!

[Brother Captain Kezef]

GW has to be careful not to steal too much from the DA's, if you give the GK's all the shiny stuff available to deathwing it cheapens the dathwing. IMO they should be the premier Terminator force while GK's should bea close second.

[Decoy]

GW has to be careful not to steal too much from the DA's, if you give the GK's all the shiny stuff available to deathwing it cheapens the dathwing. IMO they should be the premier Terminator force while GK's should bea close second.

 

 

Except that's not true. The Deathwing is an army (loosely described) that utilizes an all-terminator force. That does not mean that their terminators are in any way better than GK, not by a long shot. Deathwing should be, on average, about on par with a Wolf Guard force. Powerful, yes, but not -the- most powerful. No amount of Termie armor will make the occupants inside any better in terms of skill or ability.

[Marid]

I can understand those people that did convert TH/SS grey knights in the last codex, and fielded a lot of them, being a bit upset though.

 

Fortunately, I had just two TH/SS GKTs. I just finished cutting their shields off and rebuilding their storm bolters with dreadnought SBs, plasticard, and green stuff. At least I can keep the hammers.

[StormTAG]

2. Lack of a better delivery system. We can't have scouting Land Raiders or Storm Ravens (because they aren't dedicated transports). We don't even have a teleport assault!! (Big Issue in my mind)

 

Wait, what? You can't give a Stormraven Scout and let it get a scout move? I thought Grand Strategy would allow that...

[Gentlemanloser]

Can't use TGS on vehicles other than walkers. :)

[Ashe Darke]

2. Lack of a better delivery system. We can't have scouting Land Raiders or Storm Ravens (because they aren't dedicated transports). We don't even have a teleport assault!! (Big Issue in my mind)

 

Wait, what? You can't give a Stormraven Scout and let it get a scout move? I thought Grand Strategy would allow that...

It can't be used on non-walker vehicles. Scout can pass on to dedicated transports but that's it.

[chaplainmeliadus]

A lot of people are saying a storm shield and NFW would be over-powerered, and that's probably true. But what about the other way? What about swapping the NFW for the shield? Maybe put some special rule on it to make it a nemesis storm shield, though I've no idea how that would work. Daemon must re-roll successful hits against a shield model or something maybe.

[Ashe Darke]

The reason GKs can't have storm shields is because the Crusaders stole them all!

[Valerian]

Ultimately, the designers could have included Storm Shields and just not given NFS the +1 to Invulnerable Save in close combat ability. Just give the Swords something else, and Shields stay at 3++, which isn't a big deal at all. Terminators trade Storm Bolters for the Shields for free, while Paladins trade for +10 points, or so.

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

The real reason has just come to me.

 

GW couldn't fit a Storm Shield in the new Plastic Termy Box.

 

So we couldn't build any, we don't get them in the Codex. :)

[Brother Captain Kezef]

GW has to be careful not to steal too much from the DA's, if you give the GK's all the shiny stuff available to deathwing it cheapens the dathwing. IMO they should be the premier Terminator force while GK's should bea close second.

 

 

Except that's not true. The Deathwing is an army (loosely described) that utilizes an all-terminator force. That does not mean that their terminators are in any way better than GK, not by a long shot. Deathwing should be, on average, about on par with a Wolf Guard force. Powerful, yes, but not -the- most powerful. No amount of Termie armor will make the occupants inside any better in terms of skill or ability.

 

Who said anything about ability?

 

The SAS is better than the parachute Regiment, but you don't see the SAS being used as widely or as often, why? The SAS are an elite, highly specialised force.

 

The Deathwing is like the paras in this respect, they utilise all-Terminator assaults on a regular basis (don't want the restof the chapter to get involved when it comes down to grabbing a fallen). the Grey Knights are NOT an all-terminator force, they are a balanced, flexible elite that use a varied mix of squads. The codex itself states that Brotherhoods use a mixed force for maximum flexibility.

 

In this regard the Death wing IS the premier Terminator force of the Imperium. So they should have the terminator specific rules like teleport assault. Not only is this justified in fluff but it's a balance issue, what would be the point of Dathwing if you just gave GK's everything?

[Oiad]

Hehehe, as a Deathwing player I'd be worried about GKs stepping on my toes too. Both have fluff suggestive of them being completely fearless warriors that use Teleportation as their chosen approach to entering the battlefield. Luckily for the DA it seems Matt Ward wanted to steer away from using such rules, possibly for similar reasons as you put forward. Yet he hasn't really retconned those aspects from the fluff either. Then there his numbers and at least according to them none of the brotherhoods independently can claim to massing similar numbers to Deathwing. The Paladins, while a loose Brotherhood of sorts that does use TDA throughout are rarely if ever brought together as a singular fighting force like the DW. I think it's one of the few areas where Ward has maintained a good balance to keep fans happy. DW are still the no.1 company for TDA but GKs (not DA) now are shown to be capable of deploying it on a wider scale. It makes claims as to who the 'premier force' is a bit unwieldy and requires more specification.

 

But it's all beside the topic. Deathwing aren't unique when it comes to storm shields. Now with Loganwing as a possible build there was a likelihood that GKs would also follow suit in some way.

 

Ultimately, the designers could have included Storm Shields and just not given NFS the +1 to Invulnerable Save in close combat ability. Just give the Swords something else, and Shields stay at 3++, which isn't a big deal at all. Terminators trade Storm Bolters for the Shields for free, while Paladins trade for +10 points, or so.

Indeed. Tinkering about with the rules shows there is room for implementing them. But perhaps a low defence was part of the plan. After reading number6's feedback on his topic I find is agreeable that GKs have traded some of their defensive quality for better offensive power. Maybe SS would have countered this though I'm coming around to the idea that a choice between the default HH power and the Shrouding may have worked better.

 

Other armies don't "Deserve" anything. Neither do you, really. All you "Deserve" is a Codex that is playable, and you've got just that. In regards to what GW cares about... By releasing new models, you're forced to buy them, with or without Storm Shields. People will not spontaneously choose to play Grey Knights just because of Storm Shields, meaning by denying the option entirely, they've saved money on manufacturing while ensuring a group of people will buy the miniatures regardless. Essentially, GW has minmaxed expenditure for profit, with little to no damage to the Gray Knight image while ensuring the people who play (or want to play) the Knights will be able to do so...

So I don't deserve to voice my opinion, despite how unpopular it maybe? And talk of high-horse-style hypocrisy with the judgement calls wolf. No one here is naive enough to expect GW to reward our loyalty but for a balanced SM codex to work they have to include just as strong a defence for an elite SM army as much as it would a regular one. Paying through the nose with our costs and low model count should be enough. Grey Knights should not have additional weaknesses like a lack of anti-mech, etc. With such vital characteristics missing it'll be no wonder to me when competitive bandwagoners start disowning this release.

 

As to you're points about production, since when did spontaneity matter? The current box sets already don't provide enough thunder-hammers or falchions for each model, already requiring me to purchase further box-sets if I want to hypothetically kit out the rest of the squad fully with these weapons. Matt Ward could have stopped cussing around with useless ideas such as staves and made Storm-shields an option instead at little financial expense.

[antique_nova]

ow wait, you can't take another weapon when you have a storm shield if you already have a storm shield and weapon X. Only combat shields allow you to take two weapons or a two handed weapon.

thanks

antique_nova

 

 

C:SM FAQ

 

Last page, last question:

 

Q. The rules for both the relic blade and the storm shield

simply state that a model with one of these pieces of

wargear cannot have +1 Attack for an additional close

combat weapon. Is it therefore possible to equip a model

with both a storm shield and a relic blade? (p99, 101)

A. The rules for two-handed weapons in the rulebook and

the rules for storm shields and relic blades are not in

contradiction. So you can have both a storm shield and a

relic blade, which I think makes for rather cool models!

 

All storm shield says is you cannot have the +1 attack for additional CCW's. It doesn't say you can't have 2 weapons, nor use a 2 handed weapon, nor gain any other bonuses derived there-of.

 

Wait a minute. it only says things about two handed weapons. What about single handed weapons then.

[Iron Lord]

Also, there is no such thing as a Two-Handed weapon in 5th edition unless I've missed something. You no longer have a smorgasboard of wargear and weapons to pick to limit what you can carry. You have set, specific options in your army list which lets you have A, B or C.

 

That said, a "two handed power weapon" (as the Glaive Encarmine is described as, besides being mastercrafted) unlike a one-handed power weapon, cannot be used in conjunction with a pistol or CCW, to get an extra attack.

 

So the phrase "two-handed" generally will be relevant.

[Son of Rawl]

A Grey Knight Terminator with a NFS and Storm Sheild would be insanely hard to kill, he would have a 2+ armour save and a 2+ invulnerable in combat... Not to mention he would be able to shoot 2 times at 24 inches (or 4 if he takes a psycannon)a turn which is a clear advantage over any Terminator out there.

 

We already have power weapons standard and an option to Force Weapon every turn can't you just be happy with that.

 

We can't spam Storm Shields, big deal, was getting sick of seeing a Power Armour list with nothing but Storm Shields in them, its one of the worst changes to the game imo making Storm Shields a 3+ Invulnerable to everything

[Gentlemanloser]

Not to mention he would be able to shoot 2 times at 24 inches (or 4 if he takes a psycannon)a turn which is a clear advantage over any Terminator out there.

 

I don't think anyone advocates the ability to take a SS in addition to your Melee Weapon *and* Ranged Weapon. One or the other, really.

 

We can't spam Storm Shields, big deal, was getting sick of seeing a Power Armour list with nothing but Storm Shields in them, its one of the worst changes to the game imo making Storm Shields a 3+ Invulnerable to everything

 

Who can do that, really? Deathwing after the recent FAQ giving them the good Storm Shields?

[StormTAG]

GKs have three big weaknesses the help define them and this is part of one of them:

 

1) Expensive as all get out.

2) Not really any tougher than regular marines.

3) Not really any cheap, super-effective means of getting across the table.

 

Think about it, a Purifier will die just as easily as a Tactical Marine for almost 50% increase in cost. We don't have any scout/turbo boosting teleport homer scouts to make a Deep Strike super easy nor do we have Drop Pods to overwhelm our opponents on first turn.

 

Now, we can spend loads of points to help counter the second two issues. Paladins and Psychic Powers, help toughen us up but something as simple/cheap as easy access to Stormshields would destroy number 2 completely. Landraiders and Stormravens can help mitigate our mobility issue with the Termis, as can Servo Skulls and the like, but something like Teleport Assault would basically destroy weakness number 3.

 

Srsly, imagine a Paladin Squad with SS/NFS and an Apothecary? You would need 5+ Plasma-Marines rapidfiring into a Paladin squad to statistically guarantee a kill, and that's without wound allocation silliness. You already need a mob of almost 30 boys to guarantee a kill. Then imagine it gets to teleport down first turn guaranteed and unload with 16 S5 Stormbolter rounds and 16 S7, Rending Psycannon rounds? With a libby with Sanctuary?

 

Edit- Grammar