You Are the Lead Designer

[Valerian]

Fellow Grey Knights,

 

Let's pretend for the sake of this exercise that you are the lead designer for Codex: Grey Knights, and your lackeys just brought the recently released codex as an initial draft. They've done an admirable job of getting started on what you knew would be a significant challenge in modernizing an army that was two editions out of date. You have spent several days reviewing and analyzing their work, and overall you are impressed with what they have come up with. However, now it's time for you to take your red pen and give it the final editing and polishing touch that you know it needs.

 

Focusing on the unit rules, wargear, and the army list itself (leaving the background material for other threads), what would you change, and why?

 

Valerian

[StormTAG]

I'd...

 

- Clarify that a Dreadknight remains a MC and may "move as Jump Infantry" when equipped with a personal teleporter

- Remove the statement that Nemesis Force Falchions gain +1 attack and clarify that it counts as two identical close combat weapons, thus receive a +1 attack from that rule (AKA, it's only +1, not +2)

- Replace the Dreadknight's default equipment to a pair of Powerfists. #

- Make the Psilencer Assault 6, S3*, AP5 *Wounds Daemons on a 2+ regardless of Toughness

- Make the Heavy Psilencer Heavy 12, S4*, AP5 *Wounds Daemons on a 2+ regardless of Toughness

- Include the Forgeworld options of who you can give Psycannons (Dreads, Landraiders, etc.) and remove Assault Cannons and Autocannons from the list of Psybolt-able weapons ##

- Replace the Space Monkey with a Mechanicum Adept model (I do not care for Space Monkeys.)

- Add the following to the rules for Nemesis Force Weapons "Grey Knights are <insert fluff blurb>. Due to this, at the beginning of any Assault Phase, they make take a Psychic test to make any attack with a Nemesis Force Weapon cause instant death. This replaces the usual rule for Force Weapons and Instant Death." ###

- Add the Independent Character rule to Crowe

 

# Yes, this means that his default equipment is not NFW.

## Meaning only weapons with "Bolt" in the name should be getting Psybolt ammo, IIRC

### Yes this means that IC can do it to multiple models in the same round. Yes, I'm okay with that.

 

A few mild buffs, a couple of nerfs but I think it would be a cleaner, more focused book over all.

[Ju'kosian]

StormTag here has it summed up quite nicely imo !!

 

I agree with most on the list, and most of it I would have put on myself;

 

- change the Heavy psycannon profile to : 36" S7 ap4 heavy 4 blast. (like a thunderfire cannon)

- more Attacks on the profile of characters ( A GRAND master with only 3 attacks, please..)

- eternal warrior on grandmasters

- clarify that terminators cannot ride in chimera's (seems silly they could)

- stormtroopers as troops (not only trough a special character but just with a standard inquisitor

- when they really must include a ordos xenos inquisitor, let's get in the deathwatch

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

I can only think of a few things at the moment:

 

Crow = independent char

Brotherhood Champion = 110pts 2 wounds

 

clarify dreadknight CC weapons (doomfist str10 for monstrous creature?) (greatsword can do parry like regular sword? they are both swords after all)

[Commander Sasha]

I would include a section of 'The Adversaries of the Daemonhunter", like the old Codex: if C:GK is balanced against most armies, it is overpowered against Daemons, because of the anti-daemon weapons and pref enemy.

Giving character rules for M'Kachen, M'kar, N'kari etc, plus maybe a generic Daemon HQ with buff auras, would have led to some great narrative games.

[PhallenFoenix]

it is overpowered against Daemons, because of the anti-daemon weapons and pref enemy.

 

Which anti daemon weapons are those again? 90% of the Grey Knight wargear that effected daemons has gone the way of the dodo.

 

And preferred enemy is not actually a "benefit" vs daemons, per se. It's given for balance, as a replacement effect for the fact we're paying so many points per model for universal power weapons that don't do a thing vs Daemons.

 

Grey Knights don't beat Daemons because they are good at fighting Daemons. GK beat daemons for the same reason every other list does - Daemons are a fairly poorly designed army. The only special rule GK's have that is a real FU to daemon players is Warp Quake - if you go first, combat squad, and use a GM to give units scouting, you can probably cover 80% of the board with warp quake.

[Ashe Darke]

The only special rule GK's have that is a real FU to daemon players is Warp Quake - if you go first, combat squad, and use a GM to give units scouting, you can probably cover 80% of the board with warp quake.

Maybe the people I've been playing haven't been taking risks but even units not that far apart (they were all in an area less than 12 x 24 inches) cast a big enough bubble to push them back far enough to the point of them being useless.

 

Daemon Bane isn't gonna see Daemons get removed that often, psykout grenades are handy but only work on the charge and if you have halberds you'll probably strike first anway. After that it's taking specific people/equipment so yeah as far as basic rules for basic troops Warp Quake is the biggie. It's full of win.

[bccorin]

In addition to Storm Tag's excellent summary I would add:

 

(1) Grey Knight Terminators have access to Storm Shields. The storm shield replaces any ranged weapon (including the storm bolter). Any member of a unit equipped with a storm shield cannot have access to a warding stave.

 

(2) In fact, I'd even be willing to get rid of the warding stave from the armory if I was granted the above

 

(3) Grey Knights are fearless (you face the most incredible horrors to mankind as a living and you arent fearless?)

[Gentlemanloser]

In no particular order.

 

1: Make the Brother Captain an upgrade character to a unit of Terminators.

 

2: Make Strike Squads and Interceptors 2A and Ld9, like Terminators. Increase thier cost by a few points to compensate.

 

3: Teleport Assault. An upgrade you can purchase for units that can deep strike. Let's them DS turn 1, with no scatter.

 

4: All Grey Knights can DS (I'm looking at you Purifiers!)

 

5: Brotherhood Champions are an Elite choice, or a Purifier/Strike/Interceptor/Purgation upgrade Character.

 

6: Storm Shields.

 

7: Eviscerators.

 

8: Crowe would become an IC (he's good enough to control the Blade). He wouldn't use it, but would use an Annointed Blade as usual. Rends on 4+ and any Rending hit causes ID (Hi hi Skulltaker).

 

9: Warding Staves would give a 2++ save to Perils.

 

10: Hexagramic Seals. Upgrade to units to either give a save versus Perils, or automatically pass Psychic Tests.

 

11: NDK would move as JI with a PT.

 

12: Falchions would give +2A (1 for thier special rule, the other for having two of them).

 

13: (Agree with the earlier post about tiding up the Force Weapon activation rules)

 

14: Psilencers: Assault 4-6, Wound anythng on a 4+, AP 6. Heavy Psilencers Assault 8-12, Wound on a 2+, AP5

 

15: Heavy Psycannon. 36" Heavy 6, S8, AP3, Rending.

 

16: Return the 36" Range to Psycannons.

 

17: Allow Justicars/Keepers of the Flame to purchase an additional Psychic Power.

 

18: Stuborn (somehow)

 

19: Psychic Dreads and an AV13 CC orientated Dread.

 

Edits

 

20: Astra Aim would add 12" Range to the Purgation Weapons. It would allow Incinerators to fire like the Heavy Incinerator.

 

21: DCA would be toned down.

 

22: Henchment wouldn't be able to choose Storm Bolters.

 

23: No using Daemon Weapons or Daemonhosts with Grey Knight units.

 

24: Terminators can upgrade to an Apothecary as well as Pallies. Cost vastly reduced.

 

Probably much more to come later! ;)

[StormTAG]

GKs have ATSKNF, which is even better. Sometimes, you actually want to get out of combat so you can gun something down.

[Gentlemanloser]

Stuborn > ATSKNF > Fearless ;)

 

(Unless it's versus pinning! ;))

[Brother Valerius]

GKs have ATSKNF, which is even better. Sometimes, you actually want to get out of combat so you can gun something down.

 

I initially thought Combat Tactics was an idiotic rule when I read C:SM the first time, but I've really learned to appreciate its greatness. Too bad that other Marine codexes don't get it! ;)

[Bat33.1]

I'd be asking the rest of the design team why, when GK have *access to all the best equipment* they have no melta available or even a basic drop pod?

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

In no particular order.

 

1: Make the Brother Captain an upgrade character to a unit of Terminators. yes

 

2: Make Strike Squads and Interceptors 2A and Ld9, like Terminators. Increase thier cost by a few points to compensate. yes

 

 

3: Teleport Assault. An upgrade you can purchase for units that can deep strike. Let's them DS turn 1, with no scatter. no

 

 

4: All Grey Knights can DS (I'm looking at you Purifiers!) no, and certainly not for free

 

 

5: Brotherhood Champions are an Elite choice, or a Purifier/Strike/Interceptor/Purgation upgrade Character. no

 

 

6: Storm Shields. 2++? yeah, right

 

 

7: Eviscerators.

 

8: Crowe would become an IC (he's good enough to control the Blade). He wouldn't use it, but would use an Annointed Blade as usual. Rends on 4+ and any Rending hit causes ID (Hi hi Skulltaker). and cost 200 points?

 

 

9: Warding Staves would give a 2++ save to Perils. no

 

 

10: Hexagramic Seals. Upgrade to units to either give a save versus Perils, or automatically pass Psychic Tests. no

 

 

11: NDK would move as JI with a PT. yup

 

 

12: Falchions would give +2A (1 for thier special rule, the other for having two of them). lol

 

 

13: (Agree with the earlier post about tiding up the Force Weapon activation rules)

 

14: Psilencers: Assault 4-6, Wound anythng on a 4+, AP 6. Heavy Psilencers Assault 8-12, Wound on a 2+, AP5 yes and no

 

 

15: Heavy Psycannon. 36" Heavy 6, S8, AP3, Rending. nooooooooooooo

 

 

16: Return the 36" Range to Psycannons. yes

 

 

17: Allow Justicars/Keepers of the Flame to purchase an additional Psychic Power. yes

 

 

18: Stuborn (somehow) oki

 

 

19: Psychic Dreads and an AV13 CC orientated Dread. no, BA has that, you can't have it all

 

 

Edits

 

20: Astra Aim would add 12" Range to the Purgation Weapons. It would allow Incinerators to fire like the Heavy Incinerator. no

 

 

21: DCA would be toned down.

 

22: Henchment wouldn't be able to choose Storm Bolters. why?

 

 

23: No using Daemon Weapons or Daemonhosts with Grey Knight units. indeed

 

 

24: Terminators can upgrade to an Apothecary as well as Pallies. Cost vastly reduced. why would the cost be reduced?

 

 

Probably much more to come later! ;)

 

 

With your proposed changes, everybody would play Grey Knights. I'd even paint my orks silver to make them "count as" G.K.

[Gentlemanloser]

Cool. ;) And you'd get to use about 30 of them, compared to the 120 you usually could! ;)

 

Yeah, there's a lot of buffs there, but I think we'll se that the GK dex, while a vast improvement over the old one, will be lacking design, focus and power.

 

24: Terminators can upgrade to an Apothecary as well as Pallies. Cost vastly reduced. why would the cost be reduced?

 

The current cost is *far* too expensive, especially when the major Pally killers (S8+, AP2/1) Weapons ignore FNP.

 

22: Henchment wouldn't be able to choose Storm Bolters. why?

 

Fluff. S3 Humans aren't strong enough to use them. Marines have to use 2 hands, and they're designed for use in TDA.

 

19: Psychic Dreads and an AV13 CC orientated Dread. no, BA has that, you can't have it all

 

The Ultramarines called, and want thier Ironclads back. Our Dreads are already Psychic, and not haivng a CC orinetated Dread lessens the usefullness of the Stormraven.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Cool. ;) And you'd get to use about 30 of them, compared to the 120 you usually could! ;)

 

Yeah, there's a lot of buffs there, but I think we'll se that the GK dex, while a vast improvement over the old one, will be lacking design, focus and power.

 

There is a "space marines the movies" list. It plays a bit like thos GKs^^

[gil galed]

I can live with the rules, I'd scrub all the ridiculous fluff

 

~Draigo

~Purifiers

~secrets

 

- Keep terminus decree

 

~Gil ;)

[HERO]

BROTHERS, we have been bitching for 9 years.

 

Our codex came out last week.

 

Give it some time maybe?

[Stormshrug]

Free spotlights on vehicles.

 

I am so sick of terrible 1 point upgrades like spotlights. One point upgrades on 35-250 point models are silly.

 

-Stormshrug

[gil galed]

BROTHERS, we have been bitching for 9 years.

 

Our codex came out last week.

 

Give it some time maybe?

 

Nobody was bitching about the fluff ;)

 

~Gil ;)

[chaplainmeliadus]

*I'd add the option of targeters to warrior henchmen for x points to give them +1 BS - voila, instant Inquisitorial stormtroopers, and everyone who used to use them will be happy.

 

*Bring back True Grit.

 

* Remove Unique on Vindicare assassins ;)

 

 

 

I also agree with most of the points raised above. Not sure about needing drop-pods, and I don't feel we need Librarian dreadnoughts. I like the idea of using Tech-adepts as Jokaero.

[Wildfire]

I'd hire some mathematicians to do an analysis on how much weapons and units should really cost in combination. And I'd get some decent proofreaders to clear up rules confusion which the writers poor writing caused.

 

No, scratch that. I'd fire my so-called writers and get some literate mathematicians to write the codex.

 

Oh yeah, and I'd put the Inquisition as a playable army back in the codex.

[Heru]

Take the Henchmen warbands as troops rule from Coteaz and make it a purchasible upgrade for regular Inquisitors aswell. Also give said rule to Karamazov and the Ordo Xenos girl.

 

Make the servitors unit limit 4 instead of 3, and create a new henchman type that can babysit them for mindlock instead of the Inquisitor (your two up-to-two Inquisitors have better things to do than babysit Servitors). That would also unlock more than two units with servitors being useful in Inquisiton only lists.

 

Increase the range of weapons that Warrior Acolytes can choose from (sniper rifles, grenade launchers {because Stormies had that option}, shotguns {S4 with manstopper rounds}, lasgun {for free}, Heavy Stubber).

 

Give Warrior Acolytes a BS upgrade option (like the targeters suggested earlier).

 

Give Warrior Acolytes access to Xenos weaponry when you have an Ordo Xenos Inquistor or add an Xenos Mercenary type to the Henchmen warband.

 

Increase the xenos weaponry list (shuriken weapons, pulse weapons etc).

 

Purchasable special rule granting gear for Henchmen warbands (infiltrate, deep strike, scout etc).

 

Give Crusaders back their Carapace Armour.

 

Rules for Venenum and Vanus Assassins.

 

Rules for Officio Sabatorum Agents.

 

Add Ordo Sicarius and Ordo Sepulturum Inquisitors.

 

Add a new Inquisition unit that can be carried by a Storm Raven instead of a Dreadnought.

[sonofblood]

My proposed changes:

 

- All Grey Knights are WS5(again) and A2 base for an additional 5 points each. They are the best trained after all are they not? If not A2 then just WS5 for around 2-3 points.

- Grey Knight Grandmaster has WS7 and A4. Similar reasons to above, but increase points by 10 or so.

- With the above said, it would make Brother-Captains more viable in smaller games or as an acctually decent HQ.

- Brotherhood Champion with W2 and A2 base, but keep the "Perfect Warrior" rules as alternatives if you don't want to use the base attacks. Up points by 10-15.

- Give Librarians, Brother-Captains, and Grandmasters the options for Storm-Shields(giving them to Paladins I think would be to overpowered.)

- Lower the Apothecary cost on Paladins to 50.

- Falchions are +2A for being Dual Close Combat Weapons and then +1A attack.

- Any Justicar can take an additional Psychic power for 15 points. Excluding those specific to other units. So no Holocaust, Warp Quake, Astral Aim, etc.

- Psychic Dreadnaughts that can acctually take Psychic Powers.

- Drop Pods for Dreadnaughts.

- All Grey Knights can Deep Strike.

- Deep Striking Terminators and Paladins have Teleport Assault.

- Grey Knight Grandmasters can take up to two additional psychic powers for 5 points each.

- Brother-Captains can take up to one additional psychic power for 5 points.

- Remove the Dreadknight from the game.

- Make Crowe an IC with W2 and A3.

 

Those are my Grey Knight specific changes.

Now for Inquisition:

 

- Remove Storm Shields and Power Armor from Henchmen, put Combat Shields and Carapace Armor in their place.

- 2 Inquisitor profiles: Inquistor who is W2 and A2. Lord Inquisitor who is WS5, W3, A3(Like a Commisar Lord).

- Inquisitor same psychic options as now.

- Inquisitor Lord may be upgraded to Psychic mastery 2 with 2 additional powers for 5 points each.

- No Radicals with Grey Knights.

- Make henchmen take up a Elite slot and be as big as 3-20, and an Inquisitor Lord makes them count as troops.

 

That's all I can think of for now.

[Heru]

- Remove Storm Shields and Power Armor from Henchmen, put Combat Shields and Carapace Armor in their place.

They already have the option for Carapace Armour. Though why do you think Power Armour should be removed?