WE ROCK!

[DOCSpanky]

Finally after years of taking a backseat as real daemon hunters, we can kick daemons :lol: !!!!!!

[archangelCJ]

BOOYEAH!!!

 

except...... i dont play against any demon players...... <_< well there goes on special rule!

[Decoy]

That, and Daemons are actually made more effective against these particular Knights. Khorne-Daemons are now the bane of most things GK. I suspect we'll see a large increase in the number of Khornate Daemon armies thanks to the GK dex.

[Custodian Athiair]

That, and Daemons are actually made more effective against these particular Knights. Khorne-Daemons are now the bane of most things GK. I suspect we'll see a large increase in the number of Khornate Daemon armies thanks to the GK dex.

 

sadly so, we will just have to field dark excommunication powers a lot when we come against Khornate Deamons, it's the only thing that will work.

 

Athiair :tu:

[Grey Mage]

Copied from amicus due to apathy:

 

They are making a sacrifice. It isnt one that can be seen in their special rules, but its there.

 

They are expensive. Any Demon army Ive ever seen hit the field will outnumber them 2:1. Sure... NFWs are beastly against monstrous creatures- but monstrous creatures should be targetting vehicles, who dont have NFW instantly. Khornate Bloodletters will rip through most GK squads unless the player has taken the pricey option of halberds for the I boost. Dreadknights? Owned by your average bloodthirster, and unlikely to get the charge.

 

Will it be a harder fight than say, vs C:SM. Sure, of course it will. But this gloom and doom is just conjecture- the codex has been out less than a week and people are over-reacting. Mono-god lists other than Khorne will likely struggle... as they always have. Multi-god lists will probly see a larger emphasis on khorne and tzeentch... wich many of them already do.

 

If theyre folded back into C:CSM this becomes even less of a problem. The GK player will have to make tough choices in the assault- does he go after the demons and try to get a better combat resolution? Or does he go after the CSMs and ignore the specialists?

 

No, besides... C:GK actually has Less ability against demons than it ever did before. How so? Well lets look:

 

-NFWs still work against demons- nothing new.

-Psycannons no longer ignore invulnerable saves- win for demons.

-Incinerators no longer ignore invulnerable saves- win for demons.

-2x Mystics is no longer an available deep strike counter, nor can it be combined with leman russ'. One special character, shorter range on the effect- win for demons.

-Sanctuary no longer makes an area of the board untouchable- win for demons. Particularly important in objective games.

-NFWs are all power weapons all the time- ohwell, demons are all invulnerable, all the time. They dont care- win for demons.

-The cost of a Grey Knight has gone down 5pts- deceptive. Potentially a hazard... but all the new toys means their squads are atleast as expensive as they used to be and in general have less demon-specific punch (as shown above)

-Grey Knights have gotten prefered enemy (demons). Since slaanesh and charging khronates will still be striking first, the actuall CC potential of the demon army hasnt changed much- the grey knights will hit harder, but the demons havent lost any of their considerable CC bite.

- Most of their considerable rules affect psychers more than they affect demons. In fact, psychic powers are brought up constantly- look to see Seer Councils on the way out, not demonic gifts. In fact, so far Ive only seen one mention of demonic gifts being lost- a psychic power available to dreadknights and librarians. Any Greater Demon is better than a Dreadknight in CC, with or without gifts....

 

No, if anything Grey Knights have gained alot of ability as an all-rounder force and lost their strongest options against demons. That can only be good for game balance in the long run, initial "OMG" aside. If a GK player does take everything he can to screw over a demon player than theyve set themselves up to lose against most opponents... and no tournament player with half a brain is going to do that.

[Ashe Darke]

sadly so, we will just have to field dark excommunication powers a lot when we come against Khornate Deamons, it's the only thing that will work.

 

Athiair biggrin.gif

 

That or shooting the crap out of them.

[Prathios]

Gonna have to disagree with the NDK losing to the BT for one reason, Gatling Psilencer. Should you actually take the proper gear the Bloodthirster will never make it into close combat 1v1 with a NDK. I could be forgetting something major but if the Thirster looses his armor save from demonic gifts because of excomunication the psilencer is gonna take him out extremely quick. Along with the ability to use quicksilver on a NDK or any other unit you want to beat bloodletters... seems pretty bad for daemons. Also, losing the gifts ruins things like bloodcrushers who no longer even get an armor save or a power weapon. Add in the small but still present chance for a single wound to cause a casualty for a failed leadership check and I don't see it being nearly as good for Khorne. Sure it's all theory right now, but I think we gained more than we lost against daemons.

[Grey Mage]

Dreadknights cant take quicksilver- its only a vehicle upgrade, wich their MCs should be targetting.... only dreads, and other vehicles. So if by 'units you want to beat khorne' you mean as a deterent for units they already dont want to assault......

[Justcar]

I'm not worried.

 

Mono-khorne armies are never going to be fielded in mass (it just won't happen)!

 

I even play against a mono-khorne army and I am still not worried. I will just use my 'mean to Daemons list' using two librarians and three dreadknights. Try doing anything against five units with dark excommunication!

[jimbo1701]

Another way to spare yourself some pain from charging slaanesh/khorne daemons is to load up on halberds and (for slaanesh) cleansing flame. Purifier heavy (Crowe tax) armies would perform well in this I feel. Give them some halberds, incinerators and a stave and you end up with an effective anti-daemon unit for 260pts. (300 in a rhino)

[Grey Mage]

Indeed- but your adding 25% to the cost of PA GKs to get that +2 I. How much of that can a person afford to stack in an all comers list?

 

Though purifiers are only a point more at that point.... would be nasty. But again, your cutting your survivability alot to do it.

[krewl]

I have one power for you that will murderise deamons, and in general I don;t understand the doom and gloom some seem to see.

 

Warp Quake.

On Interceptors and Strike squads. I for one would easily include a unit of GKSS in a rhino or 1 or two Interceptor squads in an all comers list as they are just good units in their own right.

 

50% of the games even the kornate deamons will have to DS outside of 12" from your units. If they don't auto mishaps will give you 33% chance to outright remove a unit (Hurts a lot) places them back in reserves (Bye bye!, repeat next turn) or you place them on the who cares side of the board. Even if you do not have T1 you can make reinforcements stay away while you focus fire on the units in scary range.

 

Did you remember kornate deamons do not have fleet or a large charge range? Yes that means you will get a minimum of 2 turns shooting them as they move into charge range.

I'd suggest moving back from them as your weapons are almost all assault based and ranged 24" so you should get say 3 turns of shooting.

 

I'm not forgetting say a thirster could charge you and lock a unit or he could wedge you in, but his (the deamon player) game would be so much harder for them I'd say you have a pretty huge chance of winning. Khorne deamons win games in combat, they do not shoot. As long as you have them walking from somewhere you are winning.

 

And propper deployment with you staying in rhino's keeps you able to move away 12" even from the scary deep strikes when they drop to close to you.

You will need to watch and spread your placement in suchs a way that they can not drop to block you in from all sides.

 

Just some more anti deamon options to throw around, I think we will do fine. (Also, a vindicare in the middle of your deployemnt blob WILL make fateweavers 3+ poof, a must add for things fatecrusher builds, but usefull in several other situations, so not to be dismissed lightly.)

[DeathKorpsman]

Sadly the Vindicaire doesn't work against non-wargear invuln saves. He's still nasty, to be sure, but no insta-gib against daemons for him.

 

As for the rest, I think the daemonbane ability of NFW's on top of things like Librarians or GK grenade choices are going to be the big equalizer. The quote above listed some things that are true, but some of it is a little misleading. Psycannons for example, get an additional shot now and wound greater demons on a 3+ instead of a 4, along with rending for things like 'thirsters with an armor save. All of the CC points the quote lists depend on going first, which the demons will have to charge to do. Psyk-out grenades really make the difference here. Throw a solo banisher into your CC dedicated henchmen warbands with an inquisitor toting psyk-out and rad or psychotroke grenades and you've got a daemon killing combo. Also, the regular storm bolter can be buffed to Str5, which will reliably mow down daemons for not all that many more points in your up-close-and-personal squads like GKT's or Paladins. Purifiers are, as has been mentioned, quite solid. Pay your Crowe tax and go crush some skulky demon scum.

[krewl]

Good catch on the wargear item inv save. I missed that one, so fast reflexes and deamon inv saves will stay.

 

Apart from that bit though I stand by my assesment that deamons will have a very hard if not impossible time against GK.

As stated some of those quotes don't even make sense. GK are cheaper now, but thats a negative because you will buy so many upgrades they will be more expensive?

Thats assuming quite a bit, good generals know that you should not fall into the temptation of 18 uber guys as a 1750 point army ;) (I know my first draft lists ended up like that, but I know the weaknesses in those lists.)

 

Sanctuary no longer beeing an auto game winner is true, but that just less good now because it was broken as !@^%&$#.

It's still a good power and remember that a well built list can be made with some psy and rad grenades at units that will take the charges so that you hit first, with buffed S against lowered T, while making his ability to place so that you get overwhelmed fast a lot lesser due to warpquake/sanctuary.

 

As said, warp quake will prevent those annoying flamer from dropping next to you and whiping a squad (I swear these never scatter away/badly from my units, I hate them ;) ).

not old sanctualy, but outside of 12"means you have a turn to roast the freakers with shooting and our certainly has the dakka to do that.

 

Also, it's only negatives, no buffs. Our GKT's have frag and krak now.. we can charge into terrain with halbards and hit at I6 before many strike back, we have powerweapons, bloodcrushers will mind going from 3+ to 5++, those kind of things ARE advantages even if they are not universally winning you the game 100%.

 

I'm not going to take all the items summed up, but all in all I think some really pessimistic type wrote that. Look at the problems you face and look at our codex and see that the tools are there for solutions. GK DO rock as they should now, in my humble opinion, brokenling so (Is that even a word?) against deamons.

[DeathKorpsman]

I just read in another post about some guy using Dark Excommunication to nullify a bunch of Bloodcrusher(maybe Bloodletter)'s Hellblades. I was like "those aren't Gifts" and then I looked it up. Sure enough. There's a ton of things that go away with this power. I like it.

[krewl]

Yup, it's horrible....

 

Look at the Deamons codex and see that nearly all stuff they use is a deamonic gift.

Basically whatever is normally named under wargear in other codexes are now deamonic gifts. (including btw the oh so scary blessing of the blood god :wacko: )

Also note that page 27 notes the options you have to buy are also demonic gifts, which would lead to you beeing able to remove allocation gear by casting the power, doing close combat, then for say each 2 wounds on a unit of bloodcrushers he would have to remove a model, no way to spread the wounds around while keeping up the units strength.

 

In my opinion, this power could have been left out of the codex as it is only good against deamons and then it is rediculisly (Spelling?) good. A dreadknight could charge into a unit of crushers/bloodletters without fear as they'd have no power weapons so he get's to save on a 2+.... (Same goes for rending btw on slaanesh models, also a gift)

 

A libby is very good in any all comers list and adding the power to them for just 5 pts as a backup in case you roll deamons, pure gold!

(BTW, Warp quake is not just anti-deamons good, it's the exact same for thing like drop pod lists, jumppacker deep strikers, nid pods, wingend montrous creatures etc.)

[Oiad]

As we're talking about Dark Communication - upon reading it does anyone else feel the first thing the next daemon codex is going to do is rename the daemonic gifts section? :wacko:

[Gentlemanloser]

Lol! Yeah! :wacko:

[Grey Mage]

Nah, cause while it is really good against daemons, its crap against everything else- unless you know your gunning for daemon players it wont be alot of players first choice, especially on librarians.

[krewl]

Nah, cause while it is really good against daemons, its crap against everything else- unless you know your gunning for daemon players it wont be alot of players first choice, especially on librarians.

5 Points extra on a guy who is good in your army anyways? Why not!

[Brother Valerius]

Nah, cause while it is really good against daemons, its crap against everything else- unless you know your gunning for daemon players it wont be alot of players first choice, especially on librarians.

5 Points extra on a guy who is good in your army anyways? Why not!

 

Yeah, that's my opinion. If I'm taking a librarian, I may as well spend the 5 points to have some good insurance against daemons. It's very rare that my lists reach the points value of the game exactly, so there's almost always wiggle room for something like that.

[Grey Mage]

Nah, cause while it is really good against daemons, its crap against everything else- unless you know your gunning for daemon players it wont be alot of players first choice, especially on librarians.

5 Points extra on a guy who is good in your army anyways? Why not!

When you have 'the summoning', 'quicksilver', and 'warp rift'... or even just 'might of titan' they all have alot more use in them vs alot more armies. If you arent specificly going to be fighting demons taking dark excommunication is a real crap shoot, and these others are sooo useful.

 

I mean sure, its only 5pts per power- but how much do you really want to spend on those each game? Most people will probly take 2-3 favorites for a lvl 2, and on a rare occasion a 4rth for a level 3.

[Brother Valerius]

Nah, cause while it is really good against daemons, its crap against everything else- unless you know your gunning for daemon players it wont be alot of players first choice, especially on librarians.

5 Points extra on a guy who is good in your army anyways? Why not!

When you have 'the summoning', 'quicksilver', and 'warp rift'... or even just 'might of titan' they all have alot more use in them vs alot more armies. If you arent specificly going to be fighting demons taking dark excommunication is a real crap shoot, and these others are sooo useful.

 

I mean sure, its only 5pts per power- but how much do you really want to spend on those each game? Most people will probly take 2-3 favorites for a lvl 2, and on a rare occasion a 4rth for a level 3.

 

True, other powers have more general use, but you're probably going to be taking those powers anyway. Any way you slice it, the power is only 5 points more than whatever your normal libby setup would be. Not a bad investment, imo.

[Godhead]

Or just include a NDK and it's part of the package. Hammerhand or Dark Excommunication.. There isn't a lot of options for psychic powers and since the nemesis part of the force weapon automatically forces ld tests.. there is no real reason to test for Instant death (and daemons are EW anyways) so DE is the bomb. God forbid you multicharge them with a unit sporting psychout grenades forcing them to go at int 1, remove their gifts, and then proceed to remove them from the table.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Whilsty it's nice that are grey knights now have impressive psychic powers, does anyone else feel the pendulum has swung to far and what was an army you had to think to use and was fairly different and uniuqe compared to other marines now feels like "MARINES OVER 90000!!!"? and that may be a bit too powerfull? the fluff we can agree is terrible (apart from the terminus decree) but I just don't think Grey knights are the same army that I started any more... and whilst small changes are to be expected with a new codex, I just feel they changed it completely...