Tournament winning lists..a little confused

[SevenExxes]

Not only is it a flying transport vehicle but it's a flying transport -assault- vehicle. ;)

[Brother Nathan]

@Brother Nathan: Love your name! Brother Nathan sounds so Blood Angely :) Anyways, thanks for the advice. Like I said above I am in college right now but I work as a bartender so I don't really have any other expenses. (Rents pay for lodging and allowance for food) so I kind have my $ to do whateva :D So what I got from your helpful post is that we are so versatile minus 1 or 2 units that we can really work with whatever and do well? How would you go about making a balance list then that can "do well" vs everyone?

 

With all that said... ^_^ How would you guys go about making an ALL COMERS list with Sanguinor, 4-6x AV13 preds (Baals and regular) and 1-2 squads of 10 man assault squads with 2 meltas,1 power first and 1 priest with a jump pack? What do you guys think is the weakness of a list like that? So I know what else to fill up my army with to make up for the weakness. For example if you think its a glaring weakness of anti-AV14 maybe an honour guard squad of meltas as a suggestion? I don't know...what do you guys think? Good base core? What to compliment it with? Vindicators maybe?

 

Oh on another note what is this Baal Pred + Vindicator 1,2 combo people are talking about?

 

Thanks you guys for the help so far! ;)

 

my name is blood angely? never thought that so thanks:) If mones not a problem then go how you want. I would say if you get a few baal preds ty to see if you can make them so you can switch the weapons off with magnets or some such way(i made it so that the plastic is tight enough that everythin just holds together.) this way i have a baal that can be played as a rhino or what ever i need as my list changes. theres loads of tutorials on the net for magnetising too. And prettymuch yes everything works quite well together. there is a few units that work compleately different such as sternguard but they and work with defined roles. tacticals i hae only used to hold my objective since we have been able to have scoring assault marines.

As for balanced list well that changes with every dex released. currently my 1500 army is something like

 

libby with jumpack (sheild of sanguinius and unlease rage, dont forget with sheild even veichles get the cover save;))

sanguary priest with powerweapon and jump pack

furiso deads with blood talons, magna grappel and pod

10 man assault squad with powerfist and 2 meltas

10 man assault squad with 2 flamers, powerweapon, hand flamer and melta bombs

5 man assault squad with flamerback(twin linked heavy flamer)with meltagun and powerweapon

10 man tactical squad with plasma gun, missile launcher, fist

2 baal preds with heavy bolters

 

saying that the tactical squad hs done nothing for me so im thinking of swaping it out for some vanguard vets to help tie up units till i hit their lines. though i do miss my vindicator(the old metal model though which i hate and is why its currently out...)

 

Awesome! Thanks for the help guys! So more bodies is what we do best huh... Hmm... that kind of goes against what I was thinking of doing after you guys suggested to take whatever I wanted and play with it till I got good with it since our codex is so versatile...

 

Was looking at the codex a little while ago and :3

 

12 Dreadnaughts? Is possible right? LOL How competitive would that be haha. I wonder if people would expect that even o_o Sounds scary to me...

no best you can do is 11. 3 elite, 3 heavy, 5 death co(you can take 30 death company as a unit which would allow you 6 if u hadnt taken a troop choice already...) though to win in 2/3 games you need to table the opponent. would be fun though. in my last game my furiso dropped behind an excorcist, slagged it then chased down a rhino and went through the sisters inside in a single combat... well before he ran into 20 eviscivator attacks. was fun... B) but yeah fun though they are they dont score. and unfortunately you need scoring troops in this edition. really at least you need;

at 1000, 2 troops

1500, 3

2000, 4

at least... though i recommend a mix of jumpy troops and other, just for the likes of wolves who can shut down jump armys with their phsyic powers. against that your veichles really can shine

 

Ya never mind lol... was just thinking about it for dumb reasons. I will never build that many drop pods. Never...

 

What are your guys thoughts on the Stormraven? I'm thinking of using them as plain gunships. (Not carrying anything at all) Spamming a high rate of fire or flamers on my other vehicles. That sounds like it would synergize well together. Stormravens can pop anything they want and templates and TLACs will come to clean up.

 

Also it feels like it will be easy to pop. For it's points I don't want to invest too much into it since it's a fairly easy to pop AV. (12)

to be honest not a fan of the storm raven. feels like a jack of all traes that you pay for and dies relatively easily too. (plus i dont like the standard kit, i will eventually get one but it will be so heavily converted...)and though its immune to the melta rule melta guns stilll glance on a 4, pen on a 5/6. and moving fast protects it a bit but reduces its firepower... if i was using one id want a dread in it and something like mephy/sanguinator of 10 death co and lemartes... but then thats alot of points in one basket. and yea pods are, grrr... ive had mine pretty much since the kit was released and still havent finished it, and its only seen the table once...though did well(stopped a tank getting at my furiso while it went to town elsewhere :P ) id say come to it when you have a well working list your starting to get bored of and try it then. (the raven i mean)

 

Now as for the vindicator. it has one of the best guns in the game. str 10 ap 2 large blast. it can give anything a bad day.insta kills anything toughness 5 or less. no fnp. only cover or inv saves will save you. only 24 inches though, but as ours is fast we can move 12 inches and still fire, effectively giving 36 inch range, which aint to be sniffed at. and the threat of that screws up most opponents plans as they will have to spred out and be careful. which also takes their minds off baals etc. also say yur iring at a tactical squad, the vindi can kill them all in a single shot. unlikely it will but should atleast weaken a unit to such a state that a baal could then clean the survivors off. and the vindi is one of our best bets against a monolith(wouldnt bother with anything less than str 9)

 

thers more i could say probably too but ill leat you digest that all and question it too;)

[spec.ops]

Awesome! Thanks for the help guys! So more bodies is what we do best huh... Hmm... that kind of goes against what I was thinking of doing after you guys suggested to take whatever I wanted and play with it till I got good with it since our codex is so versatile...

 

I feel that I am confusing you. >_<

 

Yes, take whatever you want and play with it till you get good with it because our dex is very versatile allowing anyone to play competitively with Pure, Hybrid, or Mech; however, BA's main strength are Bodies (RAS), but it doesn't mean it isn't our only form of competitive play. You seem to like Mech, rightfully so, because who else can field 6x Fast AV13's w/ Scout?! What other SM chapter can field mass AV's that can fire their main weapon at cruising speed? Who else can DS a LR! etc...

 

If you prefer Mech BA field it, we can compete in a competitive environment with them.

 

Note, there are a few exceptions you should never bother fielding: Captains, Tech Marine, and Tac Squads. =P

[Leonaides]

and you were doing so well up until the last line. Tac squads aren't useless, apart from all the idiots on the web who cant think their way out of a paperbag who say they are because they dont know how to use them well... Tho i'm sure you know that as i'm sure you're not one of them old bean! :)

[Corby]

and you were doing so well up until the last line. Tac squads aren't useless, apart from all the idiots on the web who cant think their way out of a paperbag who say they are because they dont know how to use them well... Tho i'm sure you know that as i'm sure you're not one of them old bean! :mellow:

 

In a blood angels list they've no place and the assault squad is a far superior choice to the tactical squad as a troop choice. Please don't turn this thread into a debate about the effectiveness of tactical squads in a blood angels army as theres been loads of threads on them. Theres a reason they are not present in Blood angel tournament armies. Saying "People don't know how to use them well" does not mean the tactical squad is good.

[Brother Nathan]

though to be honest cost wise tactiacl marines dont quite cut it the same as our assault marines do. not saying they are a bad choice. personally i think ours are better than vanilla marines tact squads, but as our assault squads are scoring the rather modest additional cost just makes them more attractive to me. now if tacticals had a cheaper rhino, or could have jump packs, had acess to heavy flamers, could take a special at 5 man etc, then id probably take them after all i do have 5 squads of the bloody things(full company, though fluff wise one of my tactical squads decided to use ccws instead of bolters so fluff wise i do have 6) they just dont do any one job effectively enough for me. maby if we had more armys out there like dark eldar where double tapping was so essiential then i would but i dont think a tactical squad has ever earned its points back (ok thats a lie, a tactical sarge did walk through a guard army viciously slaughtering all he came accross, whilst the rest of my army got decimated by battle cannons...) but unless my assault marines take the full flack fire from my oponents army(3+ sav, 5+ cover from sheild, 4+ fnp....) then they remain a concern till they are fully dead. though im sure tacticals can be used quite well when you have the patience etc, but if i was doing that id be as wel playing another chapter... most of the time...(though i still do like my tactical marines they ust dont do enough for me anymore:()

[SamaNagol]

The concept of 'what do BA do best? More bodies on the ground or Mech' is far too simplistic.

 

More bodies on the ground means nothing if they are not supported adequately. Mech means nothing if you have not got enough saturation of targets and anti assault elements.

[teemoki]

Thanks everyone! Even more information to absorb! I feel like sponge :D

 

So anything is pretty good and we have a lot of options and be versatile on making our lists for competitive play. Synergy wise (I know I'm going to get yelled at for this since I am not putting anything in them) but what about 3x gunship Stormravens + 3x TL ASC/HB Baals. (Ok I might put Furiosos in it) Storm Ravens will destroy whatever vehicles there are and Baals can light up the inside!

 

Here's what I'm thinking about the Stormravens...I LOVE them as gun platform and can see it saturating my AV quite well because they will be taking shots and that costs 200 pts. If I put even a 5 man DC + Furioso in it thats already a minimum 425 pts or without DC and only the Dred 325 pts. You would probably be taking Extra Armor since you have something to drop off and that makes it even more expensive. In a AV12 platform...That just doesn't sit right with me! :o I don't feel like reserving (unless I should vs a gunline type army) because I don't know when 3-400pts of my army is now :| It seems like too big of an investment in pts for something that can fairly easily be taken out. (One of the guys here has 3x LF squads he plays with regularly for example but I'm sure many armys can take out AV12 fairly easily.)

 

Can anyone convince me that I'm wrong? I would like to think I am cuz I would love to take stuff in them :)

 

Has there ever been any talk about 10 RAS in a Rhino vs 10 RAS jump packing on foot and which is a better choice and why?

[JamesI]

The RAS rhino/jump question is hard to answer. It really depends on the rest of the list, but most of the really good lists I've seen in action have mostly mech with a 10ish man RAS running behind the mech.

[spec.ops]

@Leonaides

 

I'm an old bean?! I like that. B]

 

@SamaNagol

 

I know I stated bodies + support in my prior posts.

 

The word Mech in my book = a lot of vehicles, not Hybrid. I thought that was a universal understanding in this game?

 

@teemoki

Synergy wise (I know I'm going to get yelled at for this since I am not putting anything in them) but what about 3x gunship Stormravens + 3x TL ASC/HB Baals. Storm Ravens will destroy whatever vehicles there are and Baals can light up the inside!

 

from a purpose standpoint you are losing if you take empty ravens. But, there isn't anything stopping you from doing it. I would rather suggest Preds for popping and Baals for shredding; however, I like AC's so I devised a list geared twords pure AC's. If money isn't an issue why not take this list for a spin?

 

Meph (loaded in SR)

3x1 Furioso (attached to SR)

6x5 RAS w/ RB: AC

3x1 Baal: AC

3x1 SR

 

Has there ever been any talk about 10 RAS in a Rhino vs 10 RAS jump packing on foot and which is a better choice and why?

 

You could foot-it with JP's but you will get cut down from afar when you can drop (DS) and pop (6" Melta) armor on turn two with zero elements for the enemy to shoot at (DOA)? :]

 

As for the Rino...idk, I think this part would be best left with Leonaides.

[Corby]

@Corby

 

I'm an old bean?! I like that. B]

 

@SamaNagol

 

I know I stated bodies + support in my prior posts.

 

The word Mech in my book = a lot of vehicles, not Hybrid. I thought that was a universal understanding in this game?

 

I didn't call you an old bean. Leonidas did.

[teemoki]

Back on topics you old beans! :o

[spec.ops]

My bad! lol

 

I corrected the error. =P

[SamaNagol]

Pure Mech and Pure DoA is not going to win your tournaments as easily as hybrid as they both have flaws which the other can fill

[teemoki]

Thanks for covering a lot of my questions. Here is one that was posted a ways up that might have been missed..

 

Here's what I'm thinking about the Stormravens...I LOVE them as gun platform and can see it saturating my AV quite well because they will be taking shots and that costs 200 pts. If I put even a 5 man DC + Furioso in it thats already a minimum 425 pts or without DC and only the Dred 325 pts. You would probably be taking Extra Armor since you have something to drop off and that makes it even more expensive. In a AV12 platform...That just doesn't sit right with me! I don't feel like reserving (unless I should vs a gunline type army) because I don't know when 3-400pts of my army is now :| It seems like too big of an investment in pts for something that can fairly easily be taken out. (One of the guys here has 3x LF squads he plays with regularly for example but I'm sure many armys can take out AV12 fairly easily.)

 

Can anyone convince me that I'm wrong? I would like to think I am cuz I would love to take stuff in them :blush: I really want to use them for transports but I am thinking cost efficient Rhinos or tougher harder to kill LRs are just better :/ Can anyone suggest otherwise?

[Corby]

Thanks for covering a lot of my questions. Here is one that was posted a ways up that might have been missed..

 

Here's what I'm thinking about the Stormravens...I LOVE them as gun platform and can see it saturating my AV quite well because they will be taking shots and that costs 200 pts. If I put even a 5 man DC + Furioso in it thats already a minimum 425 pts or without DC and only the Dred 325 pts. You would probably be taking Extra Armor since you have something to drop off and that makes it even more expensive. In a AV12 platform...That just doesn't sit right with me! I don't feel like reserving (unless I should vs a gunline type army) because I don't know when 3-400pts of my army is now :| It seems like too big of an investment in pts for something that can fairly easily be taken out. (One of the guys here has 3x LF squads he plays with regularly for example but I'm sure many armys can take out AV12 fairly easily.)

 

Can anyone convince me that I'm wrong? I would like to think I am cuz I would love to take stuff in them :blush: I really want to use them for transports but I am thinking cost efficient Rhinos or tougher harder to kill LRs are just better :/ Can anyone suggest otherwise?

 

 

Firstly , stormraven gunships , despite containing the word "Gunship" in their name are actually deliverly systems first and gun platforms second. If you're taking stormravens and want to keep the contents relatively cheap a furioso dreadnaught with bloodtalons works wonders and can do a good 1-2 combo with the raven. ( Ie boost turn 1. Ruin transport with multi-melta. Dread jumps out next turn. And eats a squad.) If the stormraven is left alive in the following turns then it can act as firesupport.

[Leonaides]

Has there ever been any talk about 10 RAS in a Rhino vs 10 RAS jump packing on foot and which is a better choice and why?

 

You could foot-it with JP's but you will get cut down from afar when you can drop (DS) and pop (6" Melta) armor on turn two with zero elements for the enemy to shoot at (DOA)? :]

 

As for the Rino...idk, I think this part would be best left with Leonaides.

 

 

I'll tilt at that windmill you've so kindly set up for me...

 

Which is a better choice - neither, both or either. The question is "choice to do what?"

 

Consider vs guard - assuming you go first - a rhino will give you a turn 2 charge on anything he's deployed more than 4" onto the board. He cannot shoot your marines in the tank till he's killed it - so there will be shots wasted either due to you popping smoke, or him using infantry squads (wasting lasguns). Worst case - he blows up your tank and you deploy in the cover of its wreck/in the crater left by it - loosing a couple of inches from your charge distance an dnow facing less fire than if you ahd been on foot from the start. Unless he's ring-fenced it with infantry (in which case, you can still charge them), or deployed it in terrain that you might fail to make it through. Turn 3, there's likely to be at least 1 enemy unit within 12" of you, so jump packs are a non-issue... If you've cleared a 2ft+ gap (12" in every direction from the squad) in the enemies lines by the end of turn 2, then you've probably already won. Again, jump packs are a non-issue.

 

With Jump packs, same scenario - turn 2 charge on anything more than 6" onto the board (so 2" less - negligible). But you are exposed to a lot more firepower, every weapon he points at you can kill - weight of fire will tell here. You should still make it into combat, but you'll probably only have 2 or 3 marines (a reasonably lucky IG squad could potentially finish these guys off). You do have more mobility in subsequent turns, but that generally isnt important (as mentioned above)

 

DoA - No turn 2 charge, but not shot at on the way in. However, if you're going close enough that your melta gets its bonus dice, then you do have to consider scatter/DS mishaps - and a best case here is that your assault marines dont see close combat till turn 4. If you're not taking then for CC - tactical marines are a superior choice, so why did you take the Assault marines? And after your DoA appearance and shooting at that tank - you get to stand there and let your enemy let rip at you (exactly the same risk as that faced by the jump troops starting on the table but a turn later).

 

Rhinos are also a heck of a lot more survivable vs Close combat armies as long as you keep moving - Only hit on a 6, take that you big pansy Hive Tyrant... Take any version of Jump-pack troop (DoA or starting deployed), that Tyrant is going to make a sticky mess... This is where the drive-by flamer attack becomes popular. Also works vs Orks (mostly) since there are comparatively less attacsk that can hurt you (take 2 rhinos, flamer combat squad in each one and hit the same side of an ork mob for example - there shouldnt be enough orks left in that mob to hurt either tank, and due to teh size of ork mobs, there shouldnt be many more that can reach you if you've hit the side of his army...

 

These are just ideas - set yorself a scenario and think it through... Mech and JP-equipped troops have different capabilites, but some of those capabilities may be wasted the way you use them, and some may surprise you. Also beware of the 'wisdom' of the internet - most of the stuff you will see is either hopelessly wrong, poorly thought through or based on personal experience and highly subjective (though not necesasrily wrong). Listen to this song/read the lyrics and have a good think about what it means:

Baz Luhrmann Lyrics - Everybody's Free (To Wear Sunscreen)

And if that doent help - remember "Historians are dangerous people. They are capable of upsetting everything." Question what you read or are told - know who is saying what they're saying, why and based on what evidence.

[Black Memories]

Firstly , stormraven gunships , despite containing the word "Gunship" in their name are actually deliverly systems first and gun platforms second. If you're taking stormravens and want to keep the contents relatively cheap a furioso dreadnaught with bloodtalons works wonders and can do a good 1-2 combo with the raven. ( Ie boost turn 1. Ruin transport with multi-melta. Dread jumps out next turn. And eats a squad.) If the stormraven is left alive in the following turns then it can act as firesupport.

 

 

I'd agree completely with this. Taking the stormraven to fill the gunship role is a wasted spot. It must be used as a transport. It also, when played, really (as far as I've seen) cannot afford to not position troops first. I'll use comparative examples to illustrate my point.

 

If you're using a LR variant of some kind, generally it's tough enough that if you aren't facing a super anti-armor list (or some really lucky opponent) you can afford to play a bit of a waiting game with it and use it to scare the hell out of your opponent. Also being AV 14, opponents are likely to either fully dedicate fire or not shoot at all, going half way just isnt very effective vs land raiders without using a lot of melta weaponry.

 

With a stormraven your opponent can afford to shoot the odd missile or two at it and be able to bring the ship down, along with S7 weaponry and such. Having light-armor destroying weaponry be able to kill your very fast double-transport means that it must deliver its more-precious-than-itself cargo (or at least position it) before it can play gunship. If your SR is shot down playing devastator squad in the back lines, your units are generally walking a very long way to see combat, which in an assault based army (which stormravens are normally used), means that your hammer unit is very slow to crush whatever the anvil has sitting on it.

 

Also worth nothing on a conceptual level is that Stormravens (in my experience) work best in a fast, assault-based army. Mobile gun platform armies seem to do much better with a LR variant as their death star than something in a stormraven. Reason being that there are things to distract away from the LR with, or alternatively it's soaking a ton of fire and letting you shoot back with non-stunned/shaken dedicated vehicle weapon platforms (predators). The stormraven WILL be shot down if it takes mediocre levels of fire (at least when I'm rolling the cover saves), so it simply cannot fulfill the same "wait and be menacing" role in a mech army that a LR variant can. The Stormraven really needs to position as quickly as possible and without additional assault elements (which mech armies generally lack) I think you'll find that your stormraven will simply be carrying out a suicide mission that requires a lot of points to operate (as you already figured out). For examples of how not to use a stormraven, see the latest entry in Jawaballs (just google jawaballs blood angels) 1850 tournament winning list. While he placed well overall, he admittedly was very newbish with his stormraven throughout the tournament because he didn't support it well. LR are much stronger stand-alone entities.

 

Transport first, gunship second. Hope this helps. Please note, this information is subject to change if you run two stormravens.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

My club mates that won the Adepticon team tourney this past weekend were running something like this per 1000 point list:

 

 

HQ - Special Character (Dante, Mephiston or Sanguinor)

 

Sanguinary Priest: jump pack & power sword

 

10x assault Marine: 2x meltagun & power fist

5x assault Marine: meltagun & power sword - rhino: dozer blades

5x assault Marine: meltagun & power sword - rhino: dozer blades

 

5x Devastator: 4x ML & lascannon

 

 

So multiply this sample list by two and you have a 2000 point list. I like it because it combines all the best things in our codex - awesome special characters, Sanguinary Priests, assault squads, fast vehicles and cheap Devs. They pretty much tabled everyone.

 

G

[Black Memories]

Has there ever been any talk about 10 RAS in a Rhino vs 10 RAS jump packing on foot and which is a better choice and why?

 

You could foot-it with JP's but you will get cut down from afar when you can drop (DS) and pop (6" Melta) armor on turn two with zero elements for the enemy to shoot at (DOA)? :]

 

As for the Rino...idk, I think this part would be best left with Leonaides.

 

 

I'll tilt at that windmill you've so kindly set up for me...

 

Which is a better choice - neither, both or either. The question is "choice to do what?"

 

Consider vs guard - assuming you go first - a rhino will give you a turn 2 charge on anything he's deployed more than 4" onto the board. He cannot shoot your marines in the tank till he's killed it - so there will be shots wasted either due to you popping smoke, or him using infantry squads (wasting lasguns). Worst case - he blows up your tank and you deploy in the cover of its wreck/in the crater left by it - loosing a couple of inches from your charge distance an dnow facing less fire than if you ahd been on foot from the start. Unless he's ring-fenced it with infantry (in which case, you can still charge them), or deployed it in terrain that you might fail to make it through. Turn 3, there's likely to be at least 1 enemy unit within 12" of you, so jump packs are a non-issue... If you've cleared a 2ft+ gap (12" in every direction from the squad) in the enemies lines by the end of turn 2, then you've probably already won. Again, jump packs are a non-issue.

 

With Jump packs, same scenario - turn 2 charge on anything more than 6" onto the board (so 2" less - negligible). But you are exposed to a lot more firepower, every weapon he points at you can kill - weight of fire will tell here. You should still make it into combat, but you'll probably only have 2 or 3 marines (a reasonably lucky IG squad could potentially finish these guys off). You do have more mobility in subsequent turns, but that generally isnt important (as mentioned above)

 

DoA - No turn 2 charge, but not shot at on the way in. However, if you're going close enough that your melta gets its bonus dice, then you do have to consider scatter/DS mishaps - and a best case here is that your assault marines dont see close combat till turn 4. If you're not taking then for CC - tactical marines are a superior choice, so why did you take the Assault marines? And after your DoA appearance and shooting at that tank - you get to stand there and let your enemy let rip at you (exactly the same risk as that faced by the jump troops starting on the table but a turn later).

 

Rhinos are also a heck of a lot more survivable vs Close combat armies as long as you keep moving - Only hit on a 6, take that you big pansy Hive Tyrant... Take any version of Jump-pack troop (DoA or starting deployed), that Tyrant is going to make a sticky mess... This is where the drive-by flamer attack becomes popular. Also works vs Orks (mostly) since there are comparatively less attacsk that can hurt you (take 2 rhinos, flamer combat squad in each one and hit the same side of an ork mob for example - there shouldnt be enough orks left in that mob to hurt either tank, and due to teh size of ork mobs, there shouldnt be many more that can reach you if you've hit the side of his army...

 

These are just ideas - set yorself a scenario and think it through... Mech and JP-equipped troops have different capabilites, but some of those capabilities may be wasted the way you use them, and some may surprise you. Also beware of the 'wisdom' of the internet - most of the stuff you will see is either hopelessly wrong, poorly thought through or based on personal experience and highly subjective (though not necesasrily wrong). Listen to this song/read the lyrics and have a good think about what it means:

Baz Luhrmann Lyrics - Everybody's Free (To Wear Sunscreen)

And if that doent help - remember "Historians are dangerous people. They are capable of upsetting everything." Question what you read or are told - know who is saying what they're saying, why and based on what evidence.

 

 

This is a really good summary too, but like you said at the end, even this is really subjective based on the types of armies run and personal preferences. Most of the perceived "weaknesses" of jump pack troops deployed on board can be avoided by supplying mobile cover (such as running them behind a rhino or vindicator) or by having other big shoot-me targets in your army that will distract the small-arms firing units (tact. squads, imp guardsmen squads were the example you used) to direct their heavy weapons fire at that instead (stormraven, etc). Also the merits of not being transport reliant in turn 3+ in the game are huge with everyone taken as much anti-tank as they do now. The only other thing worth mentioning is that I usually can get a turn 3 assault with my jump pack troops with DoA, not turn 4. Also there is something to be said for a turn 2-3 drop-in take down of enemy vehicles with a bunch of jump troops, attack bikes, and a raven or something. My fast list is setup so that by turn 2 or 3 there are minimized amounts of "threatening" vehicles or transports (obviously tougher against some opponents) with this tactic. While this tactic is not always viable, I feel it was a bit over looked. Any kind of advantage you can gain by having another trick for your opponent to consider while deploying is nice. Also the weight of fire comment, if your marines have FNP it takes a tremendous amount of small arms fire to bring any significant damage to them, and 3 assault marines are more than capable of remove a squad or two of IG troops from the board once they get there.

 

Again, this is all list dependent stuff. Just thought I'd put in a good word for jump troops since I felt like they got badgered a bit in the above post. While most of these situations are accurately portrayed, it hugely depends on the list, the rolls, the point totals for the game, and what your opponent is running. If you don't know if you should take 'packers or transports, take both.

[Leonaides]

This is a really good summary too, but like you said at the end, even this is really subjective based on the types of armies run and personal preferences. Most of the perceived "weaknesses" of jump pack troops deployed on board can be avoided by supplying mobile cover (such as running them behind a rhino or vindicator) or by having other big shoot-me targets in your army that will distract the small-arms firing units (tact. squads, imp guardsmen squads were the example you used) to direct their heavy weapons fire at that instead (stormraven, etc). Also the merits of not being transport reliant in turn 3+ in the game are huge with everyone taken as much anti-tank as they do now. The only other thing worth mentioning is that I usually can get a turn 3 assault with my jump pack troops with DoA, not turn 4. Also there is something to be said for a turn 2-3 drop-in take down of enemy vehicles with a bunch of jump troops, attack bikes, and a raven or something. My fast list is setup so that by turn 2 or 3 there are minimized amounts of "threatening" vehicles or transports (obviously tougher against some opponents) with this tactic. While this tactic is not always viable, I feel it was a bit over looked. Any kind of advantage you can gain by having another trick for your opponent to consider while deploying is nice. Also the weight of fire comment, if your marines have FNP it takes a tremendous amount of small arms fire to bring any significant damage to them, and 3 assault marines are more than capable of remove a squad or two of IG troops from the board once they get there.

 

Again, this is all list dependent stuff. Just thought I'd put in a good word for jump troops since I felt like they got badgered a bit in the above post. While most of these situations are accurately portrayed, it hugely depends on the list, the rolls, the point totals for the game, and what your opponent is running. If you don't know if you should take 'packers or transports, take both.

Black Memories - yes you can usually get a Turn 3 charge with DoA, but there are 2 problems with that, if you are taking this squad in order to get into CC 1) you're a turn later than a squad starting on the board and 2 ) you still run the risk of a DS mishap - and the best case scenario if that happens is you are delayed by a turn, leading to a turn 4 charge. How many times do people supporting DoA as an assault troop entry mechanism think to remind their readers about this - it wont make a difference to the ones who know what they're doing, but the ones who really need the advice and are just starting the game need all the mental shortcuts /pros and cons pointed out to them so they learn more and learn better. 3 assault marines will probably loose a marine or 2 to a full 10-man IG squad, leaving you with a single guy who will bounce off the next infantry unit it goes near. It only takes a couple of lucky dice rolls with the first IG squad for your 3 marines to die in that first combat. I dont generally consider any unit reduced to 3 men as combat effective - its just become a suicide/hail mary squad that i dont expect to survive a H-to-H round (if it does, great, but I dont plan on it).

 

I didnt want to go into multiple units since to keep it simple, though I agree using other vehicles as mobile cover works well for deployed JP troops (indeed, thats how I usually use them).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

When it comes to DoA you don't want to make things overly complicated.

 

G :(

[Brother Nathan]

hey i love my jumppackers. only in one game havethey regretted no having a veichle when they got pulverised by the guard plasma cannon tank thing before they could do anything. think thats the only time i regret not having them mounted up. but then again it was aginst mech guard and everything went wrong, i dought a rhino would really have helped. and yes doa isnt great for getting asaults in(bar vanguard vets) but does allow for other tactics such as getting a good position for meltas and flamers, and getting another unit cover from an attached priest/libby/sanguinator etc. or even just to et in the way of shots that will be going at another unit. i usually prefer to have the units on the table from the start but in some situations it can prove invaluable. ransports either have to sit and wait or shoot forward full pelt. firing guns become a distraction. thouh i do like that i have a solid veichle wall from my baals and razorback if i want it to block line of sight to my assault marines. havent actually done it yet as ive been outflanking the baals or scouting them forward to try and stall some armour. they have really good flexibility if you ca look for ways to use it and keep trying different tactics. if you get locked into one playstyle you will eventually get picked appart. ofcourse assault squads arnt a huge threat in them selves its the synergy offered to them by other characters such as priests libbys chappy etc that make them mean. i can easily run a single assault squad that runs at 500 points plus that way. which still die to plasma the same as everything else. though if they doing that then something else is getting through hopefully...

[meniscusmike]

Teemoki, perhaps your looking at this the wrong way a strong list is something that you develop over time by playing many games and getting your arse handed to you a few times:)

The question of whether one type of unit is better than the other depends entirely on the rest of the list and the situation they find themselves in. I am not a tournament winner nor do i have the time to go to many anymore but i am a good player and i do play against regular tourney go'ers and i do hold my own. Now my lists are very different to your typical net lists (i use stormravens, DC and tactical squads) but I've learnt its strengths and weaknesses and what each unit is expected to do, which only comes from experience. Sure i can copy and paste a list but then i would have missed the point of this game, in my opinion anyway. My enjoyment of the games comes from knowing that i used my army well and played to the best of my abilities.

So in other words keep playing and find out what works for you because only you can decide whats good and whats not (dispite what the evil internet may tell you)

Mic:)

[SamaNagol]

Getting good at the game comes over time. However this hobby, if you want to actually play it to a decent level, costs a lot of money at entry level. A 1500pt army can cost you upwards of £200. So I don't blame anyone who wants to get a 'leg up' and not waste a lot of money buying units that may not be that useful to them. I mean look at what GW tries to sell you in the Battalion Box.

 

Reading is one part of learning, so is experience. But like a very perceptive person said above, do not just take what you read online as dogma and follow it. Try and break down people's opinions (Because thats what these all are, just opinions not facts) and work out why they think these units and tactics are effective. Try and understand how the synergy works. And also most importantly try and visualize in your mind how you would play AGAINST your units if you were facing them on the board.

 

Point in question, the StormRaven. The reason you dont see many of them is because the 2 perceived 'best' lists in the game are Space Wolves and Imperial Guard. They have easily enough high strength shots to take down a StormRaven in one turn of shooting and leave the contents stranded or vulnerable. And if you take them as just gunships, you are getting 2 maybe 3 weapons firing a turn on something that costs more than a devastator squad and can be killed far easier.

 

But if you have enough other scary targets, the opponent must make a tough choice between blowing the StormRaven down or something else. This is why putting a Furiso Dread with Assault Terminators or another horrible unit like Death Co. in a Raven often is a bad idea.... it makes it Target number 1.