LD10/IoCG vs ATSKNF

[minigun762]

I was reading an article online that discussed the overall weakness of CSMs as troops and one of the key elements was the lack of ATSKNF. That struck me as kinda odd as I haven't really suffered that much by not having ATSKNF and just relying on what I feel is a sturdy LD10 with a reroll.

True I have to pay for the IoCG and true it can be taken away but how many other armies out there get a standard LD10 much less a reroll on top of it?

 

Maybe people are spoiled with fearlessness or ATSKNF but this is the first time I've heard Chaos leadership being cited as a weakness.

[Xeonic]

I think the major weakness we have is being able to be swept, where most marines can't. This is of course somewhat mitigated by LD10 w/rerolls, 2a base on each model, and a powerfist embedded in each squad. We can also be run off the board(ATSKNF provides for regrouping under 50% strength as well), which is also bad(it's a rare situation though).

Personally, I think that LD10 with a reroll is better than Fearless most of the time(barring LD modificating shenanigans!), and about as valuable as stubborn depending on the situation. Vs codex marines and combat tactics+ATSKNF it's a wash IMO as that set of rules is for a different playstyle.

[Lady_Canoness]

Chaos Marines in general have the best Leadership of any army in the game. Tactical marines cannot compare with ATSKNF - combat tactics, on the other hand, are quite useful.

[minigun762]

Xenoic: Good points about the potential weaknesses but just as you pointed out, both of those issues (swept and run off the board) should be fairly rare as you can do a lot to prevent them.

 

Lady Canoness: I agree completely that CSM Leadership is among the highest there is. Even looking at the new armies, must of their basic force revolves around LD8 or LD9, some even as low as LD6-7.

 

All in all, I don't feel like I'm suffering or missing out by playing my CSMs as far as Leadership is concerned.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Chaos Marines in general have the best Leadership of any army in the game. Tactical marines cannot compare with ATSKNF - combat tactics, on the other hand, are quite useful.

 

I agree. Lacking ATSKNF hasn't bothered me much, even if I opt to not take the IoCG. Combat tactics, however, I could have made extensive use of to good effect, especially given our two specials per 10 trick. :D

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'm going to disagree. LD10 with a re-roll hasn't been very good since the change to 5th ed. It is better than atsknf against shooting and situations where you do not take any leadership minus, but inferior in the place that matters most—close combat. Now that we take -1 leadership per wound we've lost combat resolution by, we can easily end up with very poor leadership values. The re-roll isn't all that great if your leadership is low. Of course, if it's that low the unit has been wiped anyway. But there are plenty of situations where an elite CC unit piles into your CSM squad and wipes half of it, and then you break and get swept instead of holding them for another turn or 2. In the same situation, a fearless squad would take a couple more losses but still hold, and an atsknf squad would fall back, get no retreated and be the same as fearless, or disengage and rapidfire the opponent next turn. Our re-roll is the worst in the situation where it matters most.

 

And of course, our re-roll is tied to an icon that can be lost to weight of dice.

[Xeonic]

Okay, well let's look at a bad scenario: getting assaulted by 5 hammernators.

Your CSM in the open get their I4 attacks and cause 4.5 wounds, but the 2+ sv catches most of them and we kill .75 terminators.

Your fist swings and kills another .13 due to storm shield saves, ouch.

The hammernators strike and kill 6.25 chaos marines. You take your LD test at -5 or so(possibly with a reroll).

However, your hypothetical 10 man unit of Fearless CSM losing by the same margin would now possibly be gone from the table, wiped by "no retreat!" wounds, where your IoCG CSM at least have potentially 2 chances to stay on the board(of course if not they flee and probably cannot regroup)

A squad with ATSKNF would fare the same, only they couldn't be swept, and could always regroup if let to(they shouldn't be).

 

The thing is, most anything that can win combat with that kind of margin against a full unit of CSM with IoCG and a powerfist would wipe the floor with your standard Fearless choices as well. We are still talking about 10 MEQ each with 2 CCWs, plus the mandatory embedded powerfist.

There are a few -very- bad matchups that can mince a full unit of CSM in CC(and thus reduce our lofty LD10+rerolls to mean roughly jack), but mitigating that is all part of the game. I'm not saying it's perfect(we've hashed out where it's weak pretty well methinks) or even optimal, but rerollable LD10 is a pretty nice perk most of the time in my experience.

 

Of course having my 10k year old battle hardened veteran CSM who were there to besiege the walls of the palace on Terra run off the board or get cut down is always bad.

 

Now of course Stubborn is a different story. A Stubborn option for our CSM would be completely amazing IMO.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

A squad with ATSKNF would fare the same, only they couldn't be swept, and could always regroup if let to(they shouldn't be).

 

This is the big one: Being able to re-group if below half strength.

 

There are a few -very- bad matchups that can mince a full unit of CSM in CC

 

Except for every dedicated close combat unit?

[Zhukov]

Which article was that? Well in any case:

 

Most things have already been said:

-Once running and below 50%, you're dead.

-The fact that you can get swept is also bad.

 

What have those 2 above have in common? They kick in when you already suffered some casualties. What does that mean? Chances are you already lost your champion and/or Icon to wound allocation. Yes this is bad. ATSKNF and Fearless are both superior, handsdown for me. Way more reliable and reliability is a key-word for competitive play. Yeah competitive play; it's less relevant for 'friendly-non competive ' games, stuff dies there because of mistakes and list failures anyway :)

 

Another thing is that Chaos infantry has the tendency to be in bad situations because you had to melta something. (our troops are sadly enough one of our major AT assets, this hurts when it's a 255 point squad...)

 

I played with CSM squads in the beginning, but went for Plague Marines after a short time and never looked back. The fact that Plague Marines are Fearless was one of the major reasons for me.

[Canadin]

If you have taken 25% shooting casualties, it is likely that you are above 50% still, so chaos can still recoup.

 

But what this thread seems to be debating is LD10 vs ATSKNF in Close Combat.

 

Now if a space marine squad enters combat, each marine is taking a single attack, so it is very likely that you will lose combat.

I tend to always put an Icon of Khorne into any squad 10 marines large; so if a random unit assaults in it will lose and the chaos space marines will therefore hold their ground. I consider this the true chaos advantage over space marines in CC. If you are unlikely to be swept, then it doesnt matter what happens in that case.

 

A 2nd case where is where I WANT my unit to die. If an enemy CC dedicated unit(lets say Dark Eldar Witches with a Lord) assaults into my 10 man tac squad and there are still 2 men left allowing them to be tied in combat, my entire shooting army can't touch them. If however those last 2 men were swept (because the DE have a good chance of killing lotsa T4 3+ marines) I can open up with tons of bolter and autocannon fire onto the dark eldar.

 

Knowing a couple of players who understand the 5th ed assault rules rather well, I can say that I will often see them smile at the opportunity to assault a tac squad and grant their unit invulnerability to shooting for the proceeding round because they arn't going to wipe the 10 marines.

 

So ATSKNF may keep your last 2 men alive slightly longer, but if I am ever in that case, I either don't value that unit any more (exception is the kill-point match), or I want them dead so I can shoot up their assailants (which gives me a kill point) and secures taht part of the board

[minigun762]

Which article was that? Well in any case:

 

I can't remember the title but it was on 3++ I believe.

[Zhukov]

Which article was that? Well in any case:

 

I can't remember the title but it was on 3++ I believe.

Oh lol, wasn't that my article then? :D

[minigun762]

It could have been now that I think about it. I believe it was under another general's name though, not Zhukov.

[Zhukov]

Well Zjoekov is the Dutch spelling and I use that there, so that's possible. Either that or it's an way older article from Kirby himself most likely.