HsojVvad Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Well I know there is no good guys in the 40K future, almost all factions are evil by todays standards. Some chapters are made to be made to be Good and Pure, but after reading the Grey Knight codex, I find that they are no longer the Noblel, Pure Marines anymore. They do evil diabolical things just like anyone else now. I know that the DA will kill innocnets to keep thier "shame" a secret but it seems to be on a small scale. I also know they will kill thier fellow brothers, like the BT I believe when they had caputered a Fallen or Cypher and the DA wanted them. Now I can't rememeber if they did destroy the BT ship or just threatened to do so. But I also rememeber reading the the DA are one of the most, if not the most loyal people and marines anyone can ever meet. So this got me wondering, are the DA really the most evil of the loyalist chapters or is thier other chapters worse than the DA. I haven't really read much more fluff form other chapters so this is why I am asking. Now that I am reading the GK fluff, they seem worse than the DA now, and I am wondering how bad are other chapters. Would they kill inocents just to protect thier "chapters honour"? Would they kill innocnets just to get the job done? Are there any "pure" Marines out thier that would rather die so the innocents can live? Before I thought the DA were the most "evil" or "not so good and pure" of the loyalist chapters, but now, I am starting to think they may actually be the most loyal and good out of all the loaylist chapters expect when it comes to the Fallen and then thier Dark Shadows comes in. So would the DA be more good than the UM say for instance? I don't know why I think this, but I think the DA would rather be killed and let innocents live and would do anything to protect them except when it comes to the Fallen then all bets are off sort to speak but I can't rememeber where I read this. So can my fellow brothers correct me where I have erred. Also lets discuss how far the DA will go out and defent the innocent and how Pure and Righteous the DA are compared to our todays "society standards". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Well the legion has it's roots in the knightly orders of Caliban, so i think there's an engrained sense of honour within the chapter. The imperium isnt a nice place, it never has been, so the idea of "good" is relative. We cant come down too hard on the Dark Angels for sacrificing civilians to keep their secret. What's the alternative? The entire chapter would be purged for a transgression that happened far beyond living memory of any loyalist DA marine. The Marines Malevolent are perhaps the chapter closest to what you're getting at. Whilst i honestly believe it pains the Angels everytime they have to kill to hide the fallen, the MM are totally pragmatic. They've embraced the ethos of space marines being set apart from humanity and so have no qualms about sacrificing mortals to get the job done. E.G During the third war for armageddon, they ordered an artillery strike on a marauding ork force that was in the confines of an imperial refugee camp. The orks were slain but not without catastrophic civilian casualties. It really depends on how evil you classify this sort of pragmatic attitude. If sacrificing a planet of millions would help save an entire sector, would you do it? The galaxy is fairly harsh in 40k, there isnt a lot of room for moral ideals. Someone has to make these kind of calls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2716371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TmdRemm Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I agree with the DA feeling bad when killing innocents, but I guess that one of the most human live preserving chapters is the Salamanders, they were like the opposite of what the Marines Malevolent were in Armageddon war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2716379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathwing70 Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Dark Angels are probably the purest soldiers/Marines the Imperium has to offer for 'mankind'. I mean alot of different thing with that sentence. - The gene-seed is said to be the purest of them all, just some of the least used because they don't trust us. - I feel they will sacrifice themselves to protect a (pure) human. I remember a story from an old codex (3rd edition?) where a squad of Dark Angels exposed themselves/got 1 guy killed by a sniper (hit in the throath, lost gene-seed) only to save a group of Imperial guard that was pinned down. They got really pissed when they found out it was a squad of ogres they saved... - You suppose you could also see some of the harsh discipline to be a result from 'knowing' the shame of having your own brothers turn traitor. Make them work extra hard to never let it happen again. I do think TmdRemm is right about Salamanders caring the most about preserving live. We did after all let a bunch of Space Wolves get butchered just so we could end the battle quickly :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2716393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Wolves and Salamanders are the goodies. Templars, Malevolent and GK are the most harsh on citizens. Whilst in never specifically says in C:BT that the DA kill the BT, it does say the Templars were never heard from again. I don't think GW is hinting at an engine malfunction.... do you? Templars would also abandon civilians if it meant they could kill the bad guy and thereby save more people. Templars don't care about a person, they care about a group of them - humanity. Bob Jones dying is not wanted, but if leaving him unprotected saves two other mortals, the choice was a good one, yes? When you look at the Salamanders being bleeding hearts in Helsreach, what they did was dumb. Yeah you protected X amount of civilians. How about the 2X that have to suffer the consequence of the Salamanders fulfilling their do-gooder side? Ooops. "The needs of the many are greater than the needs of the one" :lol: That the DA would at least disable a BT ship just for the sake of a Fallen, and would leave Imperial forces exposed for the same reason, speaks of them being selfish. Very selfish. But I don't know that makes them evil.... I would say DA are 'less good' than Ultramarines and Blood Angels, but 'less evil' than BT, MM and GK. Flesh tearers eat civilians, which is not pragmatic, it is just indulging a lack of control ~ no good comes from it, whereas some good comes from BT, MM and GK actions. But at the end of the day, each really needs to be accountable for their actions - was more good than harm done by this? etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2716399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roesor Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Yes. The Greater Good o.o One of the staff said that there is still debate over Lion's actions during the Heresy to the effect of 'Lion el' Johnson was said to have been stuck in skirmishes and unable to help, and yet was the greatest tactical mind of the Primarchs...so the greatest tactical mind and he gets stuck in skirmishes?' Basically he was saying that Lion deliberately didn't help either faction. He was waiting to see who would win. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2716436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Yes. The Greater Good o.o One of the staff said that there is still debate over Lion's actions during the Heresy to the effect of 'Lion el' Johnson was said to have been stuck in skirmishes and unable to help, and yet was the greatest tactical mind of the Primarchs...so the greatest tactical mind and he gets stuck in skirmishes?' Basically he was saying that Lion deliberately didn't help either faction. He was waiting to see who would win. And which "one of the staff" would that be? Note red/black shirts are not valid sources for background material. I find it difficult to believe anything attributed to a nameless source, particularly when its at odds with the facts as presented in the background. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2716506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roesor Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I didn't say it was canon, or official, or ask you to believe it. Or that it was even really his idea. But that it was a theory held by some that he found interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2716509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 I didn't say it was canon, or official, or ask you to believe it. Or that it was even really his idea. But that it was a theory held by some that he found interesting. You stated "One of the staff said that", not "Some red/black shirt/whoever has/likes this theory that". What you posted read like you were saying it was fact from someone in the know at GW, not that it was just some mooks theory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2716568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugebill Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Yes. The Greater Good o.o One of the staff said that there is still debate over Lion's actions during the Heresy to the effect of 'Lion el' Johnson was said to have been stuck in skirmishes and unable to help, and yet was the greatest tactical mind of the Primarchs...so the greatest tactical mind and he gets stuck in skirmishes?' Basically he was saying that Lion deliberately didn't help either faction. He was waiting to see who would win. It's not a theory from a guy in the whatever staff, it's a direct reference at the novel "Angels of Darness" by Gav Thorpe. One of the characters speaks about that, I won't say more, but Ill add that its the best darkangel fluff I've seen up to now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2716683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reldn Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Well, if the fallen are actually right then the current Dark Angels will definitely be the most evil chapter. ;) :P (much like with the AL, I'm not sure who's side they're truly on.) But really, the Marines Malevolent would probably be the most "evil" chapter. Or possibly even the Minotaurs, I hear they're some double-hard bastards who you basically just point them at something, tell them to kill it, and off they go a-slaughtering! :D (and just for the record, I actually kind of like their old headache inducing colour scheme) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2716722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Neo Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Yes. The Greater Good o.o One of the staff said that there is still debate over Lion's actions during the Heresy to the effect of 'Lion el' Johnson was said to have been stuck in skirmishes and unable to help, and yet was the greatest tactical mind of the Primarchs...so the greatest tactical mind and he gets stuck in skirmishes?' Basically he was saying that Lion deliberately didn't help either faction. He was waiting to see who would win. It's not a theory from a guy in the whatever staff, it's a direct reference at the novel "Angels of Darness" by Gav Thorpe. One of the characters speaks about that, I won't say more, but Ill add that its the best darkangel fluff I've seen up to now. the part of AoD you are mentioning actually comes from the mouth of Astellan, one of the fallen, so not sure how much of that too believe back to the topic at hand though. in AoD it shows both sides of how a DA mind works with one happy to sacrifice the entire planet in order to capture the fallen and another willing to sacrifice himself and his small squad to save the planet due to it's strategic positioning Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2716791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Yes. The Greater Good o.o One of the staff said that there is still debate over Lion's actions during the Heresy to the effect of 'Lion el' Johnson was said to have been stuck in skirmishes and unable to help, and yet was the greatest tactical mind of the Primarchs...so the greatest tactical mind and he gets stuck in skirmishes?' Basically he was saying that Lion deliberately didn't help either faction. He was waiting to see who would win. It's not a theory from a guy in the whatever staff, it's a direct reference at the novel "Angels of Darness" by Gav Thorpe. One of the characters speaks about that, I won't say more, but Ill add that its the best darkangel fluff I've seen up to now. The upcoming short story "Savage Weapons" out of the HH "Age of Darkness" will likely put the "debate" to rest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2716808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanSturrock Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 I like to think of us as only half a step up from Traitor Marines, most of the time. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2716814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Funny.. In all my years of reading DA fluff I never once saw an innocent being killed by a DA... I dunno why people assume we kill innocents like they wouldn't matter when we can assume they would avoid doing it. As fore the BT incident , the BT book is very vague on the subject.. the BT fleet disappeared after the confrontation with DA but there's no evidence other than the motif that DA's were responsible. Yes, Fallen hunting can lead DA to desert their allies, I believe that innocents might get killed as they hunt for the fallen.. but not killed deliberately with intention, they're just casualties that can't be avoided... Marines Malovolent are far worse, Flesh Tearers will slaughter their own allies... compared to them we're goody two shoes... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2716912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Evil is certainly a word I don't associate with DA. ¿Heartless? Just like any other psyco-indoctrinated genetic-engineered soldier (aka Space Marine). I really don't think any of the loyalists are any harsher or blander than the other... its just that some get more propanda than others ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2716923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 IIRC the first heretic says the lion was the embodiment of the lions rationality and I think this is reflected in the DA, they are totally pragmatic. This is what made the lion appear cold and why the da look heartless. If killing 10m will save the imperium they will do it, no questions asked. The other thing I like to place on the DA is that they are loyal to the emperor, not the imperium so just dont care that much for what terra think and are just appearing compliant while waiting for the lion. I dont view walking away from allies to hunt the fallen of turning a fleet of BT's into servitors (total supposition that last bit) as evil, the emperor and lion will eventually need the 1st legion again so anything goes if it serves that :o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2717001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 As to Lion being a traitor, or just was waffler, Horus kind of sent him and Roboute to the arse ends of space for reason- to get them out of the way. Neither could influence things in time if they wanted to. Even master strategists need follow the orders of their Warmaster. You know, that guy that your Emperor personally told you "Do what he asks of you as if I myself had asked it of you." A lack of insubordination on the part of Roboute and Lion should not be confused with either of them waffling on what to do. Of course leaving the question of this open is a writing mechanism of its own, and that is why it will likely be left at least partially unanswered so that the question always remains. The Dark Angels have the "dark" aspect to them, their seedy past, so they are the obvious choice for leaving their Primarch's loyalty incompletely answered. The sins of the father and all. It almost writes itself. As to Angels of Darkness and the "truths" of Astelan therein, I have come to a few conclusions about what could have been done in the story, but that wasn't. Astelan: "Blah blah blah! You're the traitors!" Inquisitor-Chaplain: "No, you are the traitor you vile filth!" Astelan: "Nuh-uh!" Inquisitor-Chaplain: "Are you honestly going to tell me that..." Astelan(fingers in ears): "La-la-la-la-la-la!" Inquisitor-Chaplain: "Fine. Time for you to talk to somebody else." The guards dragged the man called Astelan down many dark corridors, and down many spiraling stairs into the darkest bowels of The Rock. The way was patrolled by guardians both seen and unseen, and finally their progress ended at an armored door, where the Grand Master of Librarians, Ezekiel himself, awaited them. He inserted an ancient key into the lock, and the massively armored vault opened. Within was an opaque field of black energy. Ezekiel waved an encrypted wand, and the stasis field shut down. Revealed was the ragged form of a man, who looked up. Though bedraggled, his countenance had not been touched by the passage of more than 10,000 years time. Only the expression of utter anguish etched upon his face masked the once proud countenance of he who was once the second most favored son of the Dark Angels, Luther himself. Ezekiel: "Tell him." Luther: "Bad news Astelan. My personal hubris led me down the dark path of Chaos, which I inevitably drew you down as well. One day Lion will return and forgive me though. As for turning you into a traitor, sorry about that. My bad." With a wave of his wand, Ezekiel reactivated the stasis field. The vault door closed with a dull and resounding boom of finality. The guards dragged the gob-smacked Astelan away. Astelan: "What?! I was an unwitting pawn of Chaos?!" Inquisitor-Chaplain: "Yes, and even though you now know the truth, and would probably now repent of your past treachery, we're still going to shoot you in the head you pathetic imbecile. Seeing as you lived the lie and all for 10,000 years, and still couldn't manage to figure it all out, you simply can't be trusted." Astelan: "I just have one question then- why did you torture me for months instead of just bringing me straight to Luther for the truth?" Inquisitor-Chaplain: "Well, you see, we are just bastards that way." So, the Dark Angels... Good guys? Yes. Bad guys? No. Vindictive, sadistic bastards? Oh, most definitely. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2717037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Astelan: "I just have one question then- why did you torture me for months instead of just bringing me straight to Luther for the truth?" Inquisitor-Chaplain: "Well, you see, we are just bastards that way."[/i] Thanks, I needed a laugh ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2717045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Would it be better if I told you that the Interrogator-Chaplain was voiced by David Mitchell doing his snide, sarcastic voice? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2717049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Uriah Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 With wave of his wand, Ezekiel reactivated the stasis field. Ha ha ha! ;) I got a hell of a charge out of Ezekiel the Enchanter's encrypted magic wand! On a more serious note, I fail to see what is particularly evil about the DA, in comparison to other Loyalist Chapters. My other Loyalist army is the Flesh Tearers... those guys are pretty rough on whoever happens to be too close. And a lot of folks have already mentioned the Malevolent, so I'll not harp on them. You never see Dark Angels running roughshod over PDF, IG or Sisters of Battle who get in the way. Hell, Naaman's last thoughts were of an insignificant man he'd pledged to defend with his life, as is told to us in Purging of Kadillus. Belial could have just orbitally bombarded the power stations and sunk Kadillus to deny it to the Orks; other Chapters would have been less reticent to do so. No, the DA aren't populists like the Salamanders, and we kill to keep our secrets, but who hasn't...? ...well, I mean, who hasn't? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2717068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Would it be better if I told you that the Interrogator-Chaplain was voiced by David Mitchell doing his snide, sarcastic voice? :P Don't know who the guy is... but I imagined him as "life is tough, but we can enjoy" tone ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2717123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Are the Dark Angels the "most evil" loyalist chapter? Of course not! There are over 1,000 loyalist chapters in the 41st millennium, and we have several examples of chapters that are clearly "badder" than the Dark Angels, if by badder you mean have no problem killing innocent civilians and even sometimes get a kick out of it: Flesh Tearers and umpteen other Blood Angel successors, Marines Malevolent, Space Sharks/Carcharodons. The Relictors aren't known for killing civilians, but are known for dabbling dangerously with Chaos. The Lamenters, Mantis Warriors, and Executioners all sided with the Astral Claws in the Badab War. The Grey Knights kill innocents for reasons that Mat Ward takes very great pains to let us know are pragmatic, but all Space Marines are pragmatic, and most would do the same thing or at least approve the Grey Knights' actions. So I don't consider the Grey Knights' killing of innocent civilians to be a strike against them. Now, as for their being Radicalist sorcerors, however... In comparison, the Dark Angels are never noted as killing innocents needlessly or out of bloodlust, they've never declared war on the Imperium, and they do not traffic in Chaos artifacts. So we have some clear examples of loyal chapters that are obviously "badder" than the Dark Angels. That said, the Dark Angels DO kill or threaten to kill other loyalist elements at times. I can't imagine that the Dark Angels do so with a clear conscience, but the Inner Circle is obsessed with one mission, and that one mission overrides almost all other considerations. I think the best way to think of the Dark Angels is to think of them as a chapter that is pure, noble, and honorable in the ranks (Greenwing), but much darker in the command structure. They're still nowhere near as bad as the chapters listed above, but they ain't lily white, either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2717148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Would it be better if I told you that the Interrogator-Chaplain was voiced by David Mitchell doing his snide, sarcastic voice? ;) Don't know who the guy is... but I imagined him as "life is tough, but we can enjoy" tone ;) He's the waiter, and that's the voice: :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2717176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 The Relictors aren't known for killing civilians, but are known for dabbling dangerously with Chaos. The Lamenters, Mantis Warriors, and Executioners all sided with the Astral Claws in the Badab War. The Relictors did kill Imperial soldiers who had seen the daemonblade they'd gotten though- I think that's what brought the wrath of the Inquisition down on them in the first place. The Lamenters, on the other hand, despite siding with the Astral Claws- are in the IA Badab book 1, shown to have gone above and beyond the call of duty to save civilians, in events prior to the war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226774-are-the-da-the-most-evil-of-the-loyalist-chapters/#findComment-2717216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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