Dark Angels vs Grey Knights

[Grandmaster Anaziel]

Has anyone been able to battle the Grey Knights yet?

I'm especially curious to see how Deathwing builds fare against them.

[CoyoteGospel]

This may or may not be helpful...

 

Played my first game last night against my friend's new GK army. I built my army specifically to kill GKs (based on what models I had) and ended up in a 0-0 draw in a Capture and Control mission. Better reserve rolls for me might have yielded a different result (ie- my Devs showed up on turn 5, just in time to run on the field and have 1 turn to shoot before the game ended). If the game ended a turn earlier, I actually would have won 1 objective to 0.

 

Overall my first (and possibly incorrect) impression is that the army has a lot of cool abilities but is very beat-able by other Marine armies.

 

Side note - a close combat between a squad of Paladins and 2 of my dreadnoughts resulted in only 1 wound on the paladins and a single glancing hit on one dreadnought after two full turns (which, unfortunately, removed his DCCW). Admittedly, there was a lot of not so great dice rolling involved on both sides.

[IanSturrock]

Well, they have cheaper troop termies than we do -- but not access to storm shields. Their dreads are generally more expensive than ours, but have psybolt ammo, which makes for the best mortis/rifleman dreads (2 x twin-linked autocannon) in the game. They don't need to buy a specific HQ to buy troop termies. I'd say that on balance, it's a more powerful army than ours, but it should be beatable -- if you're going with pure Deathwing, just stand off and shoot Cyclones at greater than 30" range. Ravenwing might struggle a bit more.

[Tanhausen]

Well, they have cheaper troop termies than we do -- but not access to storm shields. Their dreads are generally more expensive than ours, but have psybolt ammo, which makes for the best mortis/rifleman dreads (2 x twin-linked autocannon) in the game. They don't need to buy a specific HQ to buy troop termies. I'd say that on balance, it's a more powerful army than ours, but it should be beatable -- if you're going with pure Deathwing, just stand off and shoot Cyclones at greater than 30" range. Ravenwing might struggle a bit more.

 

Disagree.

 

4xPurifiers list shell out around 100 S7 shots at 24"... DW is going to fall to saturation, just like vs lootas.

 

I don't think the GK are the end of the world, but until we see how people use them and get a few games under the belt, I think its going to be pretty one-sided.

 

BTW, the same goes the other way... GKT will fall to saturation.

 

As said a few weeks ago, I've seen many people in my are going the swarm way (IG, Nids, DE) and I think GK will suffer A LOT against them just like pure DW does.

[shabbadoo]

Psybolt ammo affects auto-cannons too? That's pretty foul- 4 x St 8 shots, twin linked. That'll pop most vehicles and 2 wound toughness 4 Infantry like zits. Hordes of chum will definitely be the way to take down GKs. That and heavy tanks with AV 14.

[Tanhausen]

AV14... with S7 rending shots (yep, psy cannons with ammo).

 

Just for fun...

 

2.5% chances to wreck a LR

 

11% to glance it

 

So if you stand and shoot (I think its heavy 6) with 16 of them (4 in 4 squads), that's 96 shots...

 

You should wreck 2 LR per turn or glance 10 of them.

 

I honestly think 40k is shifting from big and mean to small and swarm. You get more and more big kits (dreadknight, stormraven, valkiries) which cost more Euros but I think usually don't deliver. And Fantasy is getting the same (check out the AWESOME new tomb kings necrosphinx).

[IanSturrock]

Swarms die to purifiers too!

 

The 24" range is why I said stay more than 30" away, though. Basically backpedal all game if you have to... because every Krak missile that hits should be a dead Purifier. It's either that or use the TH/SS option, but expect casualties (even if you get the charge, the Purifier squad is getting 2 attacks per halberd before you even get a LC or PW swing in).

[breng77]

Having played around with Gks, I think they struggle more against Mech, or armies with lots of range, than against swarm armies. Purifiers between the ability to take 4 Psycannons (possible 16 shots per squad) + storm bolters + cleansing flame, + high initiatve attacks = death to swarm.

 

Even without getting to shoot a squad of 10 purifiers will kill 17ish orks in a squad of 30 in a turn where they get charged, before the orks get to swing. Meaning that the orks need to squad wipe the purifiers to win combat, if even 1 survives, the orks will be taking at least 8 fearless saves (meaning 7 more dead orks).

 

Against Deathwing, you either need to stay over 24 inches away and plink away with missiles or try to get into close combat fast (you should win, as GK lack tons of attacks)

[Tanhausen]

Assuming you go first and deploy as far as possible (120 cm, max reach of the CML), with 4 CML DW squads.

 

Turn 1, you kill say 4 psy cannons (rare, since he will probably allocate to the halberds AND have cover)

 

Turn 1, he is deployed at 30 cm (90 remaining), moves+runs, say another 22 cm (68 remaining)

 

Turn 2, you kill another 4 psy (8 left)

 

Turn 2, he moves another 15 (53 remaining) and starts pounding with 8x4= 32 S7 rending shots, which should kill 3 TH/SS terminators. Not factoring the rending.

 

That is the extreme scenario, only factoring the psy cannons and not the storm bolters and that every single terminator you have is TH/SS.

 

And not taking into account the rest of both armies... you are using 1k and he... around the same?

 

If he is using interceptors or dreadknights (basically any teleporting unit), you are finding yourself with a huge CC pressure, that will usually strike before you do.

 

Math-hammer is for free and we all know that these analysis are not so simple in the board...but the idea of confronting elite with elite...sounds like a major loss on our side.

 

IMHO of course.

[Tanhausen]

I agree: the 4+ wounding rule for the purifiers seems the most broken thing in the codex for me.

 

Even 1 guy standing, ALL of the enemy squad takes pain... absolutely unfair.

 

And they are checked individually... you better not fail that PF sarge... or the agonizer Hekatrix or the Commisar...its an abuse.

 

Not to talk about Crowe and his 4+ I'll be back.

 

They have unbeatable supression fire (rending lootas? come oooooooooon), great CC specialists and a million boosting powers.

 

I have a tournament tomorrow and 1 good player is starting GK... I'll have to harass him into showing me the weaknesses :P

[breng77]

I think you are mistaking Crowe for Thrawn, Crowe (other than making purifiers troops) is possibly one of the worst special characters in the game.

[Tanhausen]

My bad ;)

 

Worst/best, as usual, are relative concepts rather than absolute.

 

IMO, giving puris Troop-ness is good enough (just like Belial does)... but the 4+ is REALLY nice. You're probably looking at his stats... I don't even know them :lol

 

Imagine turn 3, you went first, and in my turn 3 he is in CC next to an objective because he assaulted a unit you are sitting there (DW squad for example). You kill him, naughty you...

 

Turn 4, 50% chances he comes back and contests, by himself, an objective, hence drawing your attention on turn 5 from other objectives.

 

That's a pretty good option IMO.

 

BTW, that FNP post in your blog sounds familiar ;) And the nid situation... too complex (many variables).

[breng77]

NO Crowe makes Purifiers Troops, and he is terrible, his stats actually look good, but he has at most 4 attacks on the charge, he is not an IC, he has T 4 a 4+ invul and is not eternal. He gives opponents that charge him Furious charge and reroll hits. He is awful.

 

Thraw is an upgrade terminator, with WBB like a necron.

 

Im also not sure where you are getting 100 S 7 shots Purifiers with 4 Psycannons are 280 points with no upgrades and no ride. They can pump out 16 S7 shots per squad if they do not move, should them move it is only 8. So you would need 6.25 of these squads to get 100 shots and then only if they don't move. 6 of these squads + crowe is 1850 points, has no mobility and nothing that can shoot over 24". While it might beat Deathwing, it will lose to things like guard that can template those 61 marines into oblivion.

[Tanhausen]

1.- I guess I crossed Crowe and Thraw. I was talking about Thraw all the time, the guy with WBB... I find him really interesting.

 

2.- Aren't psy cannons heavy 6 assault 4? Or was it heavy 4, assault 2? So assuming 4 shots per model, 16 shots per squad and 4 squads... thats 64 shots. The number crunching vs LR stands... 2.5% wrecking 11% glancing, means I wreck 1,5 LR or glance 7 per turn. I still think its a tremendous output.

 

3.- I'm not saying they will kick DW, but I do think they are better in the shoot out.

 

4.- As said, add a couple of teleporting units there to assault the base of the opponent, and you have been split in two and anything short of terminators are going to have a tough time.

 

PS. Man, this week has been waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to long, my single neurona has fused: I'm going home!

[breng77]

Psycannons are Heayv 4 assault 2 (I believe, I don't have my codex in front of me), as for the teleporting units, I think some of that depends on an FAQ (if you can use a grand master to make those units scout 30 inches, then get off a turn 1 assault if could be good, but otherwise you are jumping in close to shoot and get assaulted, and none of the teleporting units have a ton of attacks)

[RayJ]

I have played AS grey Knights so far, but not against them. There's some vast overestimation of a few of the abilities they get. Overall, I say don't fret. Deathwing doesn't have quite the anti-infantry firepower of the Gk terminators, but is effective vs transports at greater distances and completely wrecks face in close combat. your average 5-man QK squad with 4 halberds and 1 hammer and getting the hammerhand cast will kill a terminator or two on average at initiative 6. The followup attacks from Deathwing will kill slightly more than that, and the GK hammer will almost break even on the fight.

 

Note that this is assuming the GKs assault the Deathwing squad. If we break even in close combat 5 for 5, imagine how awesome we are on the charge and/or using the Deathwing standard.

 

Now, properly supported by a Brother Captain or Grand Master with Rad Grenades, the killing potential goes way up for GKs, but for 200-260 points, you'd expect a lot more combat potential. It's nothing that I feel 2 Deathwing squads couldn't handle, however. If we look at purifiers instead of termiantors, well our missiles do a LOT of damage on the way in, and the complete lack of invulnerable save means we retaliate something fierce in close combat.

 

Cleansing Flame will have almost no effect on a Deathwing squad, having not quite a 50% chance to kill a single terminator (less if he has feel no Pain).

 

I'm not going to dismiss the GKs and say that we auto-win, because they have plenty of tools for punching holes in the DAs. It really is up to building and playing a balanced force with as many tools as possible on both sides and letting the better general seize the day. I don't think you can ask for more. I can definitely say that my current version of Death Hammer (4 Deathwing squads, 3 Bike Squads, 2 Dev squads) doesn't fear GK in any incarnation that they bring to the table.

[breng77]

I agree cleansing flame is a no go vs 5 man termi squads, Hammerhand is a much better choice in that instance. I also agree that in CC DW is superior (though purifiers could do decently with 2 attacks each). The issue will be against shooting, at 24" range GK can pump out a lot of shots, which is the bane of DW in general.

[SeattleDV8]

I played against a 2500 GK list tonight.

Althought he has had good luck with it, the list he had underwhelmed me.

Hq's were Draigo and Mordak (with Ghost Knights)

He has two DreadKnights (teleporter and 2 doomfists)

Two squads of Paladins with only 2 psycannons per squad(??) an Apo and a mix of CC weapons.

He also had a 5 man squad of interceptors.

For Grand Strategy Draigo gave the Paladins counter charge and Mordak gave the DK and the Interceptors scout.

 

I took Belail

For troops 2 squads with Cyclone+TH/SS; 2 TH/SS, TLLC; SB/PF

2 squads with AsCannon and as above

2 squads with HF and as above

 

Elite 2 squads of cyclones and as above.

Heavy

2 Vindicators and a LRC

 

We rolled Kill points and Spearhead deployment.

I won the first turn.

 

 

He was hoping for first turn and the DK scout move to get a first turn charge.

That didn't work.

I tabled him on turn 4 and lost 9 terminators , but only one killpoint.

 

The game was never in doubt, the TH/SS made all the difference.

Yes he was striking first in combat , but my termies held up where his paladins were still dying from a single unsaved wound (except the TLLC's)

 

There are GK lists that worry me but on the whole I think the DA can handle the GKs

[breng77]

That GK list is not very good at all, so I cannot say that it will give you much of an indication of how GKs will do. I mean I can never see running Mordak and Draigo (I'll probably never run either of the let alone both.) DW would have a harder time against a shooty GK list than the one above, just making save after save will eventually kill some termies. Not saying Gks are better by any stretch (than DW), just that the better GK lists will provide more of a challenge.

[Stromal]

Is there a point to taking a librarian against GK and hiding him? i know GK have a lot of "if the units contains a psyker"-rules, but surely psychic hood would be annyoing for the squads as they generally dont have ld10?

[breng77]

If you knew you were playing against GK sure, hoods are very annoying for Gks, in an all comers list I'm not sure it is worth it just in case you face GKs

[SeattleDV8]

I've had good luck with my hoods against Chaos, Eldar and 'Nids.

 

It's not a must have, but can be useful.

[aekold]

Although our librarians only have LD9 I think that even blocking a few powers will be worth it. Especially if it is that power that lets vehicles ignore sjaken and stunned results/

[breng77]

The problem with that is that you payed (at least 120 points) to have a 28% chance to negate that power that negates shaken or stunned (or any other LD 10 power) against the LD 9 powers you are at 41%. While far from useless I'm not sure it is the best use of points.

[Tanhausen]

I agree with breng, a hood just in case puts most builds off balance for anything below 2500 points.