SS or GKT?

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd like to focus on our two basic Troops for a moment.

 

The Strike Squad, versus the Terminator.

 

While Terminators are billed as being the core of a Grey Knight army, I'm struggling to find any reason why they would be more useful than an equivalent amount of Strikers. There are exactly two things that Terminators have over Strikers;

 

1) The ability to fire Special Ranged Weapons at full effect on the move.

2) An increased Save (And Invulnerable Save).

 

But They have more attacks than Strikers? Not for a comparible cost. In fact, as they are exactly double the cost of thier Strike Squad brethren, for an equivalent cost, you get exactly the same number of CC attacks (Well, the Strikers have 1 more to be honest...) but double the number of shooting attacks. And double the number of Special Ranged Weapons, for less cost than the single Terminator weapon!

 

So even with Relentless, 10 Strikers can take two psycannons for the 1 Psycannon that 5 Terminators can, for cheaper, and can get the same shots out of them on the move (and double when standing still).

 

Strikers can Deep Strike, like Terminators. And can take Dedicated Transports. They can sweaping advance. They have Force Weapons and Hammerhand, but they also have the useful Warp Quake.

 

So were' dwon to the increased Save. Terminators only have the edge over Strikers when facing AP3 weapons, but the Strikers have twice the wounds to absorb these hits. There's the Invulnerable save, but outside CC the strikers can take advantage of Cover saves to make up for this.

 

So really, what's the role and place for Terminators? Less bodies, less attacks for a smidge of extra protection in CC (and when facing AP3 ranged weapons). Is that really worth it?

 

I'm having a hard time seeing the place Terminators are supposed to have in a Grey Knight army.

 

Now, if our Terminators had access to Storm Shields, it would be a totally different story...

[Astrator]

You have neglected a couple of other things that the Terminators have, as well: better leadership, and the ability to Deep Strike.

 

Sure, the Justicar mitigates the leadership difference, somewhat, but if you lose him, or Combat Squad the unit, you're stuck with Ld8 versus the Terminators' Ld9.

 

Deep Striking Troops, especially those with good survivability and strong guns, can be a very powerful strategy. It can often be easier to take or contest Objectives in such a manner than it is to ram a Rhino through the front lines.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, just that. :) The Justicar is Ld9, and The Strike Squad can also Deep Strike.

[Astrator]

Well, just that. :) The Justicar is Ld9, and The Strike Squad can also Deep Strike.

Strike Squad can Deep Strike? I thought only Interceptors could DS, insofar as the new PAGK's are concerned.

[Gentlemanloser]

Striks can Deep Strike. ;)

 

Personally, I think they should have had infiltrate (from thier fluff) instead, but them's the breaks. They're even mentioned specifically in the Teleport Homer rules.

[dublindawg]

Termies are a valid option if you deep strike them or shuttle them into combat. Since once they are in combat they don't have to worry about the ranged AP weapons shooting them. If you are going to foot slog them across the field then the GKSS are a better option as they can take a cheap transport for protection and fire on the go.

[Marshall666]

Nope basic GKSS can deepstrike, p91 of codex, in their selection it is listed in their special rules.

 

- Marshall

[Gentlemanloser]

Termies are a valid option if you deep strike them or shuttle them into combat. Since once they are in combat they don't have to worry about the ranged AP weapons shooting them. If you are going to foot slog them across the field then the GKSS are a better option as they can take a cheap transport for protection and fire on the go.

 

Why are 5 Termies (with 1 Psycannon) DSing better than 10 Strikes (With 2 Psycannons)?

[antique_nova]

the only advantage termis have is protection. nothing else.

[Marshall666]

I think there is a fear factor to the terminators deepstriking,

 

That and the free halberds so that you are almost guaranteed to strike first against whatever can assault u the turn after u arrive.

 

Against a unit of 10 GKSS as opposed to 5 terminators, id be much happier to charge the vanilla GKSS with anything cheap but plentiful and go for weight of numbers. where as the terminators i would think twice. as they will get all their attacks first to thin my numbers and with the imporved save id down less of them.

 

-Marshall

[Gentlemanloser]

the only advantage termis have is protection. nothing else.

 

Is that slight extra protection (with half the wounds) worth double the cost? I don't tihnk it is.

[Astrator]

Well, I definitely stand corrected on the Deep Strike issue. Too used to the old 'dex, I guess.

 

A couple more boons for the Termies: free upgrade to Halberds and Hammers has already been mentioned, but bears repeating; also, Termies don't give up an NFW for their Psycannon. Also, fewer models can be easier to navigate into Combat such that they all get to swing. In general, Terminators seem to make for a better Assault choice.

[dublindawg]

Termies are a valid option if you deep strike them or shuttle them into combat. Since once they are in combat they don't have to worry about the ranged AP weapons shooting them. If you are going to foot slog them across the field then the GKSS are a better option as they can take a cheap transport for protection and fire on the go.

 

Why are 5 Termies (with 1 Psycannon) DSing better than 10 Strikes (With 2 Psycannons)?

 

I'm not saying that Termies are better than GKSS's at DSing, I'm only stating that they become a more valid option if you DS them. If you don't DS the termies or shuttle them into combat, then they are foot slogging across the board opening them up to be shot apart.

[antique_nova]

the only advantage termis have is protection. nothing else.

 

Is that slight extra protection (with half the wounds) worth double the cost? I don't tihnk it is.

agree on that

[evileyevirtue]

Why are 5 Termies (with 1 Psycannon) DSing better than 10 Strikes (With 2 Psycannons)?

 

They can shoot full blast... so really its about equivalent on the Psycannon edge. Really it comes down to that better save and cheap weaponry compared to the SS. You don't have to pay for a DH or Halberds, plus they're scary to most people.

 

I like the termies because they look awesome... and they can hold objectives, statistically speaking, better than the SS can in the same circumstances. Except if they're all bundled together and demolisher comes along... both units would be gone in that case anyway.

[Krieghammer]

the only advantage termis have is protection. nothing else.

 

Is that slight extra protection (with half the wounds) worth double the cost? I don't tihnk it is.

agree on that

 

Well 3+ is 1/3 dies

And 2+ is 1/6 dies

 

So roughly speaking the terminator armour convers a twice as good armour save, in addition to the 5+ inv. save!

Only there the double points is justified in the survivability, and as the terminators (I consider) is a mainly cc unit they have some swords for 4+ inv save!

 

Also speaking of utilization, they do not lose NFW when equipping Incinerator or psycannon, that is a real sink for the power armoured brethren.

 

But i would say it really comes down to what list you run! Just focusing on comarping GKSS or GKT is not giving a just picture of the two units...

When you need a durable killer-unit i would take GKT over GKSS. But when you need flexible more multi-tasking unit i would go for GKSS in some kind of transport depending on if they combat squad or not.

[StormTAG]

5 Termis (1 DH, 4 Halberds, 1 Psycannon) vs. 10 Strikers (1 DH, 7 Swords, 2 Psycannons)

 

Which is pretty close to the same point cost, I think.

 

 

GK Movement Phase

5 Deep Striking Terminators have a smaller foot print than 10 Deep Striking Strikers; Terminators

Strikers have access to dedicated transports Strikers

 

Opponent's Movement Phase

Strikers have Warp Quake, which hampers Opponent's movement phase Strikers

 

GK Shooting Phase

Both have 4 Psycannon Shots on the move No Advantage

Strikers have 8 Psycannon Shots when standing still compared to Termi's 4 Strikers

Strikers have 16 Stormbolter Shots compared to Termi's 8 Strikers

 

Opponent's Shooting Phase

Termis much more resilient vs. AP3 weapons (Battlecannons, 1000 sons, Krak Missiles, etc.) Terminators

Termis much more resilient vs. AP2/1 Weapons in open (5++ vs no save, etc.) Terminators

Both can take advantage of cover, Shrouding, etc. No Advantage

Termis slightly more resilient vs AP4-6 shooting Terminators

Strikers have more ablative wounds before losing special weapons Strikers

 

Assault Phase

All Termi attacks are Power/Force Weapons, ~1/5 of Strikers are normal Terminators

Non DH attacks are at I6, Strikers at I4 Terminators

Same number of DH attacks No Advantage

Termis slightly more resilient vs. Non-Power Weapon/Rending attacks Terminators

Termis much more resilient vs. Power Weapon/Rending attacks Terminators

Strikers have double the Termi's wounds Strikers

Termis cannot sweeping advance Strikers

 

Psychic Powers

Striker's lose psychic potential when Justicar dies Terminators

Termis have less wounds to deal with PotW Strikers

Strikers have Warp Quake, which hampers Opponent's movement phase Strikers

 

 

 

 

Ultimately, you'll only get 9 PW/FW attacks at I4 unless you pay through the nose. Termis are all PW/FW all the time and can choose between I6, DH or a 4++ in close combat without paying extra. Strikers are better at shooting except vs. big things while on the move, where they are equal. However you are "wasting" more Stormbolter fire when you shoot their Psycannons at AV12+. However, they become good candidates for Psybolt ammo though.

[Captain Psycho]

I see these two units as having different roles, GKSS is a great midfield for holding objectives / fire support, basically a suped up tac squad.

 

Termies are better suited to close combat (in a unit of 10), 2A, free halberds or swords for +1 to invul save in cc, brotherhood banner for instagib wounds. As a bonus GK termies are also scoring and shooty enough to play that role if need be, but I prefer GKSS for that role which is why I wouldn't run all Termies.

 

I think two GKSS with a DH and 2 x PCs is a solid base for any list. On top of that I want to run 10 termies with a DH, 2 x PCs and 7 halberds + GM with rad grenades as my hammer.

[Abaddonshand]

Also, to add to the post above, terminators get a save from perils. Admittedly, they need to reroll sucessful ones, but that's still better than instantly dead justicars in strike squads. Although, I think it would have been pretty cool if the ageis conveyed a +1 to invulnerable save for perils only, with the base on strike squads being a 6+ and on TDAs a 4+ (or better yet, the warding stave worked against perils - no librarian would be fielded without one!)

[Daydreamer]

The GKSS are almost certainly a slightly better buy than Terminators at the basic level: twice the bodies, more than half the survivability, the same guns but twice as many, more attacks on the charge, and better transport options (the same as Terminators + Rhino chassis).

 

But the Termies do get more bang for their buck out of weapon upgrades, (free halberds, free hammers, all on 2A Terminators), so a tooled-up squad of Terminators might be more efficient than a tooled-up squad of GKSS in assault, which is also where the Terminators' specific brand of surivability helps more (they have half as many bodies but take half as many wounds -- which is better for combat resolution).

 

So -- shoot with GKSS, and assault with Terminators. Grey Knights being more of a shooting army with counter-assault capability, that probably means the core of the force should be Strike Squads, not the Terminator-oriented force Mat Ward writes he envisioned.

 

This assumes, of course, that you're not doing what all the cool kids are apparently doing and use Coteaz and fill Troops with Henchmen (blech ;) ).

[FerociousBeast]

In my sig, you will see a link to a post I wrote a while back analyzing Terminators in Codex Space Marines. Many of the points are very applicable to this discussion, most importantly the fact that 10-man, 170-point Tactical Squads are MORE SURVIVABLE than 5-man, 200-point Terminator Squads against AP1 and AP2 weapons, and EQUALLY SURVIVABLE against weapons that allow armor saves for both. Of course, the Terminator Squad is much more survivable against AP3.

 

To bring the discussion back to Grey Knight Strike Squads and Terminator Squads, another factor in the Strike Squad's favor is that the upgrade to psybolts costs 20 points for both unit entries. So 10 Strikers will each get psybolts for 2 points each, and 5 Terminators will get psybolts for 4 points each. The shooting benefit to the Strike Squad is thus even better.

 

The real comparative benefits to the Terminator Squad are these:

- free halberds and hammers

- cheaper falchions and warding staves

- Much cheaper Incinerator

- Brotherhood Banner option

- More survivable against AP3

 

(The 4++ in close combat against power weapons when wielding swords makes them equally survivable to the Strike Squad, so is not listed as a benefit here. Without the swords, the Terminators would be less survivable against power weapons.)

 

The benefits to the Strike Squad:

- Free Psilencer

- Twice as many storm bolters for the same points

- Two psycannons for less than the price of one Terminator psycannon

- Cheaper psybolt upgrade for the points

- More survivable against AP1 and AP2

- +50% attacks on the charge

- Transports

- Sweeping Advance

 

I'd say that the Terminator Squad's free or cheaper assault weapons do not come close to closing the gap between the two units, as the Strike Squad is far, far better than the Terminator Squad at ranged combat, has twice as many bonus attacks on the charge, and can sweeping advance.

 

The two units are a picture perfect example of poor internal balance. A Mat Ward specialty, I might add.

[JohanReidel]

If ML spamm is common in your area go for Termis otherwise pick whatever you like the best since both are more or less equal. The rest comes down to play style...

[boreas]

Is it just me, or we're comparing knives and forks here? As has been demonstrated, GKSS are much better shooters while Termies are better assaulters. While I understand that in most situations, GKSS are better, I'll still find the need to bodyguard them around a bit. The GKSS are most confortable at 16-20" shooting as much as possible, so I'd like to dissuade my opponents from coming inside the 12" radius. A nearby combat squad of Termies with a few halberds and a few hammers, no shooting upgrade (except incinerator maybe) will be a nice deterrent. In cover (which is pretty easy) and spread around (also easy with so few models), they can't be easily destroyed.

 

Phil

[Daydreamer]

Is it just me, or we're comparing knives and forks here? As has been demonstrated, GKSS are much better shooters while Termies are better assaulters.

 

Not necessarily. GKSS do have twice the bodies which means twice the extra attacks on the charge (20 vs. 15 attacks on the charge in the typical scenario of 10 SS vs. 5 Terminators). Plus they can sweeping advance.

 

Terminators can close some of the gap because their assault upgrades are both cheaper and apply to 2A each, and because they take fewer wounds in combat which helps combat resolution. But I'm not altogether convinced that it closes the gap enough that tooled-up Terminators will have more assault utility than the same points in tooled-up Strike Squads. They will be strong against different things, certainly.

 

Since Terminators are intended to be the GK army's core unit, that's rather unfortunate.

[boreas]

But since your GKSS will be geared towards shooting (I assume 10 GKSS w/psybolts and 2 psycannons), you want them out of CC. Having 5 GKT nearby (5 GTK, 2 halberds, 2 hammers, 1 sword, 1 incinerator) would help keep you shooty squad out of CC and blazing away, no?

 

Of course, you could separate you GKSS squad in a shooty squad (5GKSS w/psybolts and 2 psycannons) and an assaulty squad (5GKSS 2 hammers 2 halberds), but that would be wasting points on 1A models.

 

Phil