SS or GKT?

[BigDunc]

GKSS can split into combat squads giving you more scoring units, Termies cannot, at least for the same approximate point value. I don't think this has been mentioned yet.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd say that the Terminator Squad's free or cheaper assault weapons do not come close to closing the gap between the two units, as the Strike Squad is far, far better than the Terminator Squad at ranged combat, has twice as many bonus attacks on the charge, and can sweeping advance.

 

The two units are a picture perfect example of poor internal balance. A Mat Ward specialty, I might add.

 

Thank you!

 

That. :P

[JohanReidel]

Okey guys. the majority of opponents you will face of against will be MEQ Marines of some type right? What would you rather have facing off against 12 or more missile launchers? 3+ SS or 2+ GKT? I don't really feel like trying to out shoot someone who has 36" range and mobility in there shooting as well.

 

I don't know about you but I feel like having a mix of GKT and GKSS to make sure my army has synergy and can combat multiple threats as well as being robust enough to survive some shooting.

[FerociousBeast]

Which do you think you are more likely to fight? Missile launcher spam or melta spam? In my experience, the latter is far more common, and GKSSs are more survivable against AP1.

 

I also forgot to add Warp Quake to my reasons why the free/cheap H2H weapon upgrades on the terminators does not come close to evening the field.

[JohanReidel]

Well thats is your local meta. Mine is different and it makes the GKT a lot better at surviving. And thats just the point. One or the other is not superior. They are both very good in different ways, even if they seem to have the same uses they work differently and depending on your local meta, or trends, will work better for you.

 

This is why you can look at it and say that unit X is better then unit Y. However that is only true in one type of meta not across the bord. So if trying to figure out what will work best at your LGS will not always provide you with what works best at a tournament or in another town. A better and more global way of thinking about it would be to ask what ratio of units X and Y should I get to be able to cover my bases as much as possible against all types of armys and opponents. And a GK player should be very happy having great units of X and Y in there troop section.

[Joasht]

I am a little surprised it took several replies before someone even mentioned Terminators have two attacks base...

 

I'm not a huge fan of the Troop Terminators for reasons I've discussed elsewhere in this forum and on my blog, but it is mainly because I feel they aren't entirely worth the points when you look at the overall picture. However, that isn't to say they are bad (I also somewhat dislike the GKSS after all) - the way I see them they are to act more as close combat units rather than shooty units, and the GKSS are rather good at shooting.

 

It doesn't mean they are necessarily *totally awesome* in combat mainly because they will struggle getting there (Deepstrike or pay for a LR/SR), but once they get there they aren't too bad. With a full compliment of Halberds (and a hammer or two thrown in just in case) and a Brotherhood Banner, they can generate a good number of attacks at I6, which should at least thin the number of attacks they would be receiving back against slower opponents.

 

In my personal opinion, given the greatly-increased effectiveness of the Brotherhood Banner in larger units giving all of them 3A base, and the potential to upgrade Psybolts (2 points per model if you take 10, its not too bad) as well as the additional special weapon, you'd probably want to take a max unit of them. However, this means you are more or less forced to either walk them there or Deep Strike. Deep Striking 10-man squads can get a little risky, so I suggest Teleport Homers/Mystics. I'm naturally paranoid about Deep Striking, so I'd never trust just Servo Skulls for this purpose.

[Drachnon]

When I started thinking up my GK army I decided pretty early on not to field the terminators. Mostly because I wanted to field massive amounts of storm bolters :cuss.

If I did take terminators I'd go with a 10 men squad with banner and let them outflank with grand strategy. Expensive? Yes but I would love to see how my opponents would deal with 10 outflanking terminators with 3 attacks each.

 

I do think that Strike squads are overall better but I don't think terminators have no use.

 

One thing that hasn't been mentioned:

With Grand strategy its better to have 2x 10 terminator squads then 4x 10 strike squads.

[FerociousBeast]

I agree, Drachnon, but the argument is not that Terminators are bad or have no use, the argument is that in almost all circumstances, equivalent points of GKSSs are better. Thus, GW's intention to make Grey Knight Terminators the premier Troops unit in the codex is seriously undercut. And it would have been so easy to balance the units better. Just make the Terminators 5 points cheaper and give them Warp Quake or something comparable. Then we have two units that both have their specialties and uses in a competitive list. My guess, though, is that GW didn't want to make GK Termies cheaper than their Ultramarine counterparts, which wouldn't have gone with the whole "Grey Knights are even better than Marneus Calgar!" spiel.

[TheReclusiarch]

Why do I take Terminators? The models are beyond awesome. :)

 

Truth is however, I have both a Strike Squad and a Terminator squad as troops in my army. Why choose when you can have both? :D

[Freman Bloodglaive]

There is one consideration. Cost.

 

Strike Squads in dollar terms are 50% dearer than Terminators point for point.

 

On the other hand, if you're worried about cost, buy Draigo, one box of terminators, and you have an HQ and 5 troops.

 

Not quite as cheap as my buying Coteaz and then emptying out my bitz box to find all my old guardsmen and witch elves to make a legal (small) army, but pretty cheap.

[Gentlemanloser]

Or kit bash your own. :)

 

I've been able to plump out my PAGK minis by mixing the old plastic (BT/DA/Company Chamion bits) one I'd started to build myslef, and some of my old metal PAGK with left over arms from my PAGK boxes (I dislike the old Metal PAGK poses).

 

Surprisingly, what I'm shortest of are Shoulder Pads. :D

[BrotherWasted]

I am a little surprised it took several replies before someone even mentioned Terminators have two attacks base...

 

I'm not a huge fan of the Troop Terminators for reasons I've discussed elsewhere in this forum and on my blog, but it is mainly because I feel they aren't entirely worth the points when you look at the overall picture. However, that isn't to say they are bad (I also somewhat dislike the GKSS after all) - the way I see them they are to act more as close combat units rather than shooty units, and the GKSS are rather good at shooting.

 

It doesn't mean they are necessarily *totally awesome* in combat mainly because they will struggle getting there (Deepstrike or pay for a LR/SR), but once they get there they aren't too bad. With a full compliment of Halberds (and a hammer or two thrown in just in case) and a Brotherhood Banner, they can generate a good number of attacks at I6, which should at least thin the number of attacks they would be receiving back against slower opponents.

 

In my personal opinion, given the greatly-increased effectiveness of the Brotherhood Banner in larger units giving all of them 3A base, and the potential to upgrade Psybolts (2 points per model if you take 10, its not too bad) as well as the additional special weapon, you'd probably want to take a max unit of them. However, this means you are more or less forced to either walk them there or Deep Strike. Deep Striking 10-man squads can get a little risky, so I suggest Teleport Homers/Mystics. I'm naturally paranoid about Deep Striking, so I'd never trust just Servo Skulls for this purpose.

 

 

Having 2 attacks base doesn't really matter. For equivalent points, you will get equivalent or more attacks out of Strike Squads.

 

Personally? I just take a squad of five with a Banner and Psycannon. I will happily attempt to DS them within 18" of a softer unit, or use them to screen another footslogging squad against incoming fire (bolters, Fire Warriors, krak missiles are all personal favourites). With a banner, what doesn't get killed after their shooting and the Halberds will get mopped up by my Daemonhammer anyway. At worst, I lose one or two to a random Power Fist. At best, I win the combat and the opponent runs for their life.

[CheezeFezt]

Mathhammer. Use 200 pt per squad. squad in close combat, nobody charged. GKT with Halberds. SS no upgrade. No hammerhand.

 

Vs 200 pt 9.5 berzerker (I'm using fraction just to even out the squad pt).

GKT kills 2.5 berzerker, who in turn kills 1.2 GKT. Pt cost is GKT killed 53 pt vs 47 pt for the berzerker. Barely ahead of the berzerker.

SS kills 2.5 berzerker simultaneously berzerks kill 3.2 SS. SS killed 53 pt vs 63 pt for berzerker. Berzerker come out ahead.

Without halberd, GKT is the same as SS.

 

vs 200 pt 33.3 orks (I'm using more than max 30 ork just to even out the squad pt)

GKT kills 2.5 ork. Remaining ork kills 2.6 GKT. GKT: 15pt vs Ork: 103 pt. Ork way ahead

SS kills 2.5 ork. Remaining ork kills 5.1 SS. SS: 15 pt vs Ork: 103 pt. Same as GKT, ork way ahead

 

vs 200 pt 33.3 hormagaunt.

GTK kills 4.4 gaunt, remaining kills 1.6 GKT. GKT: 27 pt vs gaunt: 64 pt. Gaunt ahead.

Gaunt kills 3.7 SS. Remaing SS kills 2.8 gaunt. SS: 17 pt vs gaunt: 74 pt.

 

Using hammerhand will slightly improve the kills number.

 

Summary: GKT/SS is only equal to other elite powered armor race like berzerker. I haven't mathhammer for death company.

 

Against mob army, GKT/SS get dragged down.

 

For GKT vs SS, if enemy has I 3 or lower, they're the same. GKT is more affected by probability (eg more likely GKT get wiped than SS, likewise, GKT more likely to be untouched than SS).

 

For enemy with I 4 or higher, GKT better.

[BrotherWasted]

Those numbers are to be expected considering their statlines. They are regular marines at heart, after all. But, those values are fine in a vacuum. In reality, either squad is already likely to have suffered casualties.

 

Moral of the story? Take Crowe and Purifiers if you want to melee with Nids or Orks.

[Gentlemanloser]

For enemy with I 4 or higher, GKT better.

 

With the added SB shots the Strike Squad has?

[Drachnon]

For enemy with I 4 or higher, GKT better.

 

With the added SB shots the Strike Squad has?

I wouldn't give his calculation or oppinion to much thought as its highly situational. It's easy to find situations where either choice is better. For example if you want anti horde fire I could compare 5GKT for 200 points with 9 GKSS with psybolt ammo and come out that GKT aren't worth taking. Right now he's merely shown that most of the time 10 I6 power weapon attacks are better then 11 I4 power weapon attacks.

[antique_nova]

the only advantage termis have is protection. nothing else.

 

Is that slight extra protection (with half the wounds) worth double the cost? I don't tihnk it is.

agree on that

 

Well 3+ is 1/3 dies

And 2+ is 1/6 dies

 

So roughly speaking the terminator armour convers a twice as good armour save, in addition to the 5+ inv. save!

Only there the double points is justified in the survivability, and as the terminators (I consider) is a mainly cc unit they have some swords for 4+ inv save!

 

Also speaking of utilization, they do not lose NFW when equipping Incinerator or psycannon, that is a real sink for the power armoured brethren.

 

But i would say it really comes down to what list you run! Just focusing on comarping GKSS or GKT is not giving a just picture of the two units...

When you need a durable killer-unit i would take GKT over GKSS. But when you need flexible more multi-tasking unit i would go for GKSS in some kind of transport depending on if they combat squad or not.

 

actually your wrong

 

3+ 1/4 dies

 

the main reason why GKSS trump termis in my head is because they can have more transport options and can fit in more bodies for points. tTBH i feel better facing a plasma spamming unit with my GKSS than with a termi unit. Plus termis lose their invul advantage when GKSS are in cover.

thanks

antique_nova

[Joasht]

I am a little surprised it took several replies before someone even mentioned Terminators have two attacks base...

 

I'm not a huge fan of the Troop Terminators for reasons I've discussed elsewhere in this forum and on my blog, but it is mainly because I feel they aren't entirely worth the points when you look at the overall picture. However, that isn't to say they are bad (I also somewhat dislike the GKSS after all) - the way I see them they are to act more as close combat units rather than shooty units, and the GKSS are rather good at shooting.

 

It doesn't mean they are necessarily *totally awesome* in combat mainly because they will struggle getting there (Deepstrike or pay for a LR/SR), but once they get there they aren't too bad. With a full compliment of Halberds (and a hammer or two thrown in just in case) and a Brotherhood Banner, they can generate a good number of attacks at I6, which should at least thin the number of attacks they would be receiving back against slower opponents.

 

In my personal opinion, given the greatly-increased effectiveness of the Brotherhood Banner in larger units giving all of them 3A base, and the potential to upgrade Psybolts (2 points per model if you take 10, its not too bad) as well as the additional special weapon, you'd probably want to take a max unit of them. However, this means you are more or less forced to either walk them there or Deep Strike. Deep Striking 10-man squads can get a little risky, so I suggest Teleport Homers/Mystics. I'm naturally paranoid about Deep Striking, so I'd never trust just Servo Skulls for this purpose.

 

 

Having 2 attacks base doesn't really matter. For equivalent points, you will get equivalent or more attacks out of Strike Squads.

 

Personally? I just take a squad of five with a Banner and Psycannon. I will happily attempt to DS them within 18" of a softer unit, or use them to screen another footslogging squad against incoming fire (bolters, Fire Warriors, krak missiles are all personal favourites). With a banner, what doesn't get killed after their shooting and the Halberds will get mopped up by my Daemonhammer anyway. At worst, I lose one or two to a random Power Fist. At best, I win the combat and the opponent runs for their life.

 

It matters when you have a full squad and a Brotherhood Banner, which bumps them to 3A base, 4A on the charge (if they ever get a charge). Small squads IMO do not benefit as much from the banner as it costs the same and you gain less attacks.

[BrotherWasted]

A banner on a 5-man squad is the difference between 12 and 16 halberd attacks on the charge.

 

You still make up for that lost force weapon (a squad with 16 I6 attacks vs 15 without the banner), and it grants the squad a guaranteed activation test. I see no argument why a banner is not a compulsory upgrade for a GKT unit of any size.

[Brother Valerius]

the only advantage termis have is protection. nothing else.

 

Is that slight extra protection (with half the wounds) worth double the cost? I don't tihnk it is.

agree on that

 

Well 3+ is 1/3 dies

And 2+ is 1/6 dies

 

So roughly speaking the terminator armour convers a twice as good armour save, in addition to the 5+ inv. save!

Only there the double points is justified in the survivability, and as the terminators (I consider) is a mainly cc unit they have some swords for 4+ inv save!

 

Also speaking of utilization, they do not lose NFW when equipping Incinerator or psycannon, that is a real sink for the power armoured brethren.

 

But i would say it really comes down to what list you run! Just focusing on comarping GKSS or GKT is not giving a just picture of the two units...

When you need a durable killer-unit i would take GKT over GKSS. But when you need flexible more multi-tasking unit i would go for GKSS in some kind of transport depending on if they combat squad or not.

 

actually your wrong

 

3+ 1/4 dies

 

No, he was right. 3+ save means that a 1 or a 2 is death, ie 2/6 die, ie 1/3.

[FerociousBeast]

Thanks for the math, CheezeFezt. But a more helpful comparison would include the benefit of twice as much storm bolter shooting. I'm going to add the results of two rounds of shooting (one round of shooting for their opponents armed with pistols).

 

Vs Berzerkers:

 

5 GKT - 10 shots x 2/3 to hit x 1/2 to wound x 1/3 failed save x 2 rounds = 2.22 Berzerkers killed before combat

10 GKSS - 20 shots x 2/3 to hit x 1/2 to wound x 1/3 failed save x 2 rounds = 4.44 Berzerkers killed before combat

 

9.5 Berzerkers shooting bolt pistols:

 

GKT - 9.5 x 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/6 x 1 round = 0.53 GKT killed before combat

GKSS - 9.5 x 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/3 x 1 round = 1.06 GKSS killed before combat

 

Vs. Orks:

 

5 GKT - 10 shots x 2/3 to hit x 1/2 to wound x 1/1 failed save x 2 rounds = 6.67 Orks killed before combat

10 GKSS - 20 shots x 2/3 to hit x 1/2 to wound x 1/1 failed save x 2 rounds = 13.33 Orks killed before combat

 

33.3 Orks shooting sluggas:

 

GKT - 33.3 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/6 x 1 round = 1.39 GKT killed before combat

GKSS - 33.3 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/3 x 1 round = 2.78 GKSS killed before combat

 

Vs. Hormagaunts:

 

5 GKT - 10 shots x 2/3 to hit x 2/3 to wound x 1/1 failed save x 2 rounds = 8.89 Hormagaunts killed before combat

10 GKSS - 20 shots x 2/3 to hit x 2/3 to wound x 1/1 failed save x 2 rounds = 17.78 Hormagaunts killed before combat

 

(Hormagaunts have no shooting capability, so there are no Grey Knights killed before combat.)

 

 

So, if you take those combatants that are killed before combat into account, I think you'll find that the Strike Squads come out ahead in each of the match-ups.

[Captain Psycho]

It matters when you have a full squad and a Brotherhood Banner, which bumps them to 3A base, 4A on the charge (if they ever get a charge). Small squads IMO do not benefit as much from the banner as it costs the same and you gain less attacks.

 

What he said - if you're comparing the two units at around 200 - 225 points yes the GKSS is a better choice, but as I said earlier imho they have different roles and you have to build them accordingly. 10 GKTs with a DH, 2 x PCs, 7 halberds and a Brotherhood Banner led by a GM with rad grenades is a hammer, a GKSS with a DH and 2 x PCs is a midfield objective holder / fire support unit. I will take at least two of those GKSS and at maximum one GKT in my 1500 - 1750 lists (I'm not sold on Paladins so I'm sticking with GKT).

[Joasht]

A banner on a 5-man squad is the difference between 12 and 16 halberd attacks on the charge.

 

You still make up for that lost force weapon (a squad with 16 I6 attacks vs 15 without the banner), and it grants the squad a guaranteed activation test. I see no argument why a banner is not a compulsory upgrade for a GKT unit of any size.

 

No, a banner-less 5-man squad has 15 (3A x 5 men) attacks on the charge. The difference between a banner on a 5-man squad and no banner is ONE halberd attack. For 25 points. Sure, auto-Force Weapon activation; I'm not impressed :/

 

On a full squad however, that Banner is awesome. Would be silly not to take the banner with 10 men.

[FerociousBeast]

10 GKTs with a DH, 2 x PCs, 7 halberds and a Brotherhood Banner led by a GM with rad grenades is a hammer, a GKSS with a DH and 2 x PCs is a midfield objective holder / fire support unit.

You're comparing apples to pumpkins here, but I suppose that's your point. My point, though, is the point. Point cost, that is.

[antique_nova]

the only advantage termis have is protection. nothing else.

 

Is that slight extra protection (with half the wounds) worth double the cost? I don't tihnk it is.

agree on that

 

Well 3+ is 1/3 dies

And 2+ is 1/6 dies

 

So roughly speaking the terminator armour convers a twice as good armour save, in addition to the 5+ inv. save!

Only there the double points is justified in the survivability, and as the terminators (I consider) is a mainly cc unit they have some swords for 4+ inv save!

 

Also speaking of utilization, they do not lose NFW when equipping Incinerator or psycannon, that is a real sink for the power armoured brethren.

 

But i would say it really comes down to what list you run! Just focusing on comarping GKSS or GKT is not giving a just picture of the two units...

When you need a durable killer-unit i would take GKT over GKSS. But when you need flexible more multi-tasking unit i would go for GKSS in some kind of transport depending on if they combat squad or not.

 

actually your wrong

 

3+ 1/4 dies

 

No, he was right. 3+ save means that a 1 or a 2 is death, ie 2/6 die, ie 1/3.

i read it a bit too quickly.