SS or GKT?

[mlund]

Yes, the terminators are point-for-point worse than a Strike Squad of the same cost. For all the talk of "Resilience" from armor and invulnerable saves the Terminators have half the wounds to give and lose twice the offensive capability per wound as the Strike Squad. Most of the time you are getting shot at you'll be trying for Cover Saves anyway, so the Terminator Armor's Invulnerable Save is almost a complete waste in the shooting phase. A 5+ Invulnerable in Assault stops 1 Power Weapon strike in 3 wounds, but each wound wipes out 20% of your squad, on average. So after three wounds the Terminators are down 40% while the Strike Squad is down only 30%.

 

The only matters of significance the Terminators really have in their favor are a smaller DS footprint, free Halberds, and having more attacks when receiving a charge since they don't trade out their Nemesis Force Weapon for their Psycannon. Frankly, that's nowhere near recovering the opportunity costs of giving up the survivability of 5 wounds vs. TDA, 5 attacks when charging, 8 Stormbolter shots per round, Warp Quake, and the chance to ride in a 40pt transport as opposed to needing a Land Raider or Stormraven to get around.

 

- Marty Lund

[Zhukov]

Some people mentioned that Terminators have a smaller footprint when deepstriking: This isn't really true. Well if it is, it's really marginal. I just checked it for myself with actual models and it's really close.

 

About the discussion: Yes, Terminators have little going for them. You get a slightly better combat unit sometimes compared to GKSS and that's pretty much it. In terms of survivability the GKSS almost win every comparison and same goes for shooting damage output. Termies as a combat unit still isn't that impressive and it gets worse when you lose a few man... Wound allocation also means you'll be taking saves on your psycannon model often too while these are better protected in a 10 man GKSS squad.

 

I understand that people really want Terminators to be better (or at least equal to) than GKSS... but in >90% of the cases you're better of with GKSS.

[mlund]

Some people mentioned that Terminators have a smaller footprint when deepstriking: This isn't really true. Well if it is, it's really marginal. I just checked it for myself with actual models and it's really close.

 

I guess it isn't that the foot-print is actually larger or smaller. The area taken up by 10 circular bases at 20mm isn't significantly different than that of the area taken up by 5 circular bases at 40mm, even with gaps factored in. The real issue is the shape you get and how you can manipulate it. 7 models on 20mm bases take up a 60mm diameter. You can then flex the ultimate radius of the landing zone by another 20mm in any direction you want with the last 3 models. 5 models on 40mm bases have a 40mm core and then you can aim the remaining 40mm from the other 4 models behind any tangent drawn across the circumference of your core model. So if you pick a point on the board and you can ensure that the squad is either 0mm closer than the initial model or 40mm closer at your whim. Strike Squads only have 20mm of flex built in.

 

- Marty Lund

[CheezeFezt]

The math is just a quick comparison of GKT v SS in close combat.

 

Of course there are tons of variable. If the GKT/SS charges, which is better? (The SS since they get 10 extra attacks vs 5 for the GK). What if you fight nid who reduced your A to 1, which is better? Of course the SS. Enemy wielding all power weaon? (GKT). Throw in Might, which is better at smacking Leman Russ tank? With Might, which is better at going toe-to-toe with a Dread? Which is better vs Death Star unit?

 

If the berzerker out-move you and get the charge, who come out ahead? If a I10 banshee smack you, which one is better?

 

For resilency, who's better? Well 1/6 die at 2x pt vs 1/3 dies is the same. Until an AP3 hit you. Then termie rules. Termie is only half the size of the SS, so each loss is more damaging. But they only dies half the rate, so even out.

 

Summary: enemy with low AP (say AP2 and/or power weapon), the SS is better for the point value. AP 3. GKT. AP 4 or higher: wash.

Initiative lower than 4, wash. Between 4 and 6. GKT. Higher than 6: wash.

 

So more or less, it's a wash.

[FerociousBeast]

Your argument, CheezeFezt, seems to be that in close combat the two are "a wash" (which I presume means they are equivalent). I'd actually disagree with that and say that Grey Knight Terminators have a slight but definite edge in close combat due to their free halberds and daemon hammers.

 

However, that's not what we're discussing. We're debating whether or not Grey Knight Terminators are worth the points that could be spent on Grey Knight Strike Squads instead. That's a much broader question than whether one unit or the other is better in CC, and the answer seems to clearly be "No", at least in a competitive list chosen only for tabletop efficiency. Obviously, if you just love Terminators or you want to build a list that is representative of the Grey Knights fluff (as I would if I were going to collect Grey Knights), you'd take two or three squads of Terminators and fewer numbers of Strike Squads.

 

But the points system is a competitive system and must be written for competitive play, and the poor internal balance between the two units is a major flaw with the codex (among many others), in my opinion. Competitively speaking, the only role I see for GKTs is as a Land Raider-delivered deathstar unit with a Brotherhood Banner. And they have some significant competition for that role from Paladins. That's a far cry from the official line in the codex that states that GKTs are the heart and soul of the Grey Knights and make up the majority of a Grey Knight strike force.

[Zhukov]

Some people mentioned that Terminators have a smaller footprint when deepstriking: This isn't really true. Well if it is, it's really marginal. I just checked it for myself with actual models and it's really close.

 

I guess it isn't that the foot-print is actually larger or smaller. The area taken up by 10 circular bases at 20mm isn't significantly different than that of the area taken up by 5 circular bases at 40mm, even with gaps factored in. The real issue is the shape you get and how you can manipulate it. 7 models on 20mm bases take up a 60mm diameter. You can then flex the ultimate radius of the landing zone by another 20mm in any direction you want with the last 3 models. 5 models on 40mm bases have a 40mm core and then you can aim the remaining 40mm from the other 4 models behind any tangent drawn across the circumference of your core model. So if you pick a point on the board and you can ensure that the squad is either 0mm closer than the initial model or 40mm closer at your whim. Strike Squads only have 20mm of flex built in.

 

- Marty Lund

Good point, that does make sense ;)