Krishar Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 So obviously we all know how awesome the Vindicare is by now, but what does everyone think of the other 3 types of assasins? Personally I'm not really sure.. Callidus has gone down in use due to not being able to assault the turn it arrives via. Polymorphine, I honestly can't see it surviving that one round of shooting very often... it does however do even more damage than before when arriving with the d6 hits. The Eversor still seems good but has increased in price by quite alot, and lost it's large charge range, I'm considering running it behind my rhino's etc and then have it strike out as counter assault once enemy gets close. Lastly the Culexus just seems a waste of points when looking at rest of army, the GK codex now has so much focus on enemy psykers, not just daemons that it just seems overkill against almost all armies. In regards to inquisitors I'm rather liking them all so far, though Malleus and Xenos seem the most interesting in regards to gear and potential to me. The henchmen have alot of uses now.. personally I like using them as a rather cheap firebase, 3 x heavy bolter servitors, a bunch of psykers, hellrifle Malleus inquistior and some acolytes with just bolters for shooting and cheap extra wounds. I've been close to adding the monkey every time I've used this so far.. but at 35 points I'm just not sure it's worth the risk. As pointed out many times already the Death cult assasins also seem potent and in pure assault capability will outdo many of the GK forces, I think I'd personally add a few crusaders for the stormshield and a Inq. with thunder/daemonhammer and hammerhand. Lastly you can make a good mobile firebase, either with plasma or melta and throwing them all in a chimera.. So.. what do you all think of the none GK units of the codex, and what's been your experiances with them so far? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
T3mpl@r Crusade Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 I created a post not too long ago about some of the AT potential of a shooty henchman squad. After having thought about my original post my thoughts are this: 1 Inquisitor with hellrifle 2 MM servitors 2 Jokero 1 crusader 6 warriors mounted in a chimera with heavy flamers as weapons Strategy wise, the chimera acts as a bunker for the lot, with i htink 5 fire points? squad can provide some nice AT fire. the jokero can choose to fire his weapons as either a MM, lascannon, or heavy flamer, so youve got range. Armor gets close? not much would survive 4 MM attacks. What is nice is that if the chimera gets popped, the inquisitor can pass Ld tests, and theres a 3+ inv for sponging and 6 warriors for additional sponging. mobs get close? 4 heavy flamer attacks! U mad? whats even better is that since you have 2 jokero, the inconcievable customization roll can get really fun. each jokero increase the chances of getting the better upgrade. my personal fav being the range increase ;) imagine 36" range MM with 18" super killy 2D6. muahahaha Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2717202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
501st Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Having play tested all the assassins to find what fits i can say without a shadow of a doubt with the greatest respect Krishnar is completely wrong about the Culexus assassin, if you position the little chap even half decently its "Animus Speculum" is one of the most devastating short ranged weapons in the game. It works on the principle that the more psykers you have within 12 inches the more powerful it is, remember that every Grey Model in the army except for non psychic henchmen count as a psyker. Stick this little chap at the spear head of a charge by 2 Strike squads and a Brother-Captain and your looking at him throwing out 15 strength 5 AP 1 Shots at BS 8. I Don't care what non vehicle unit your shooting, That is going to sting a hell of a lot Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2717209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Except that gk squads and psyker squads count as a single psyker as stated in their respective rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2717338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Clinto Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 What about a Culexus advancing with a Psyker Inquisitor that is leading a Henchman squad that includes a Daemonhost, Mystic and Psyker? None of the 3 specifically have the "psyker" trait but have/use warp powers. Would that be an addtional 4 shots for the Speculum? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2717500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycnh Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Its a litte annoying that the Inquisitors cannot get invulnerable saves 'cept the Malleus that can take termy armor or a special character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2717523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 There has been a decent amount of discussion regarding Inquisitors/Henchmen, I've even started threads about them myself a little while ago; they should still be easily found on this forum. Regarding the Assassins as everyone has said before, the Vindicare is good, although admittedly I myself am not entirely sold on it for many reasons, one of which being that in the entire game he will only ever get a maximum of six shots - sometimes less. This means that although he can pull off potentially-game-changing feats like one-shotting Arjac or nuking a Land Raider, he also brings a whole lot less "killyness" to the field, which is a thing to note given his considerable cost. Besides the Vindicare I'd probably rate the Eversor, despite it being somewhat nerfed from its previous incarnation which, if I'm not mistaken, was only 90 points. Granted he now does better against "not so tough" targets, the change of the Neuro Gauntlet from an Agonizer to a Lightning Claw changes his role for me - he used to be one of my favourite MC-hunting figures when used to support the rest of my army. Still, he is *extremely* killy, given his considerable potential number of attacks with amazing accuracy, and I think well worth it if used properly. The Culexus lost some of his old abilities (vaguely off the top of my head I recall him having some sort of psychic abomination rule that affected Ld, and psyk-out grenades worked different), but even back then I never truly bothered with him. Now he is a pure shooty Assassin with a rediculously short range. Although his gun seems to benefit a lot from the fact that so many GK's are psykers, it would honestly be difficult to squeeze too many Justicars/HQs into his bubble to boost his gun. Frankly, I don't see him being used much. And the Callidus,meh. I've actually personally always preferred the Eversor last time (a lot cheaper) and now even more so, simply because I'm not a fan of assault units deep striking nearby and not being able to assault after. Her D6 hits probably won't kill many, and her Neural Shredder is a rather situational gun - against T4 multiwound units it can be useful, but other than that you are often getting what is sort of a S3 AP1 Flamer (assuming Ld 9), or S4 AP1 Flamer (Ld 8). Neither of which feel worth the considerable point investment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2717526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
501st Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 @vBrom. Grey knight squads only count as single psykers under the brotherhood of psykers rule, in all other respects including Culexus's weapons each model counts as a psyker Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2717765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 page 21, brotherhood of psykers: "the unit counts as a single psyker.." page 51, Psykers: "all psykers in the same unit are treated as a single psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests, ETC." The brotherhood of psykers rule applies in every aspect that it pertains to, not just to itself as it seems you are implying. To me these statements are pretty clear that you can not count each individual model, but to each their own. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2717884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Regarding the Assassins as everyone has said before, the Vindicare is good, although admittedly I myself am not entirely sold on it for many reasons, one of which being that in the entire game he will only ever get a maximum of six shots - sometimes less. This means that although he can pull off potentially-game-changing feats like one-shotting Arjac or nuking a Land Raider, he also brings a whole lot less "killyness" to the field, which is a thing to note given his considerable cost. The Vindicare is a lot like a sniper in modern armies. Very few rounds fired; he won't ever thin down a mob of Ork Boyz. And yes, he is very expensive- thousands of hours of training go into crafting these tools of war. The fact is that unless your opponent spends a considerable amount of effort to dislodge/kill the Vindicare (or gets very lucky), the Vindicare will earn his points back easily. Taking a concept from chess, there are two kinds of value here- points value and situational value. Either he will directly earn his points back by killing expensive single models (including vehicles) or he will indirectly earn his points back by changing the flow of the battle. He may create an interdiction zone that your opponent does not venture into. He may remove high-threat targets from the board, such as that melta/fist that is approaching one of your vehicles, preventing the loss of your vehicle so it can remain on the board and continue to do its work, or taking out that special character's protections so your regular squads can take them down easily, etc etc. Even the mental threat alone that your opponent has to deal with is valuable. Outside of seasoned players, there's going to be a mental shock value that can disrupt your opponent's game plan from the very start. All in all, a very satisfying low-100's point expenditure for me. For the rest of them, for me personally the Inquisitors have some nifty tools/rules and so do the henchmen, but if I wanted to play at the level of 25 points for an IC, I'd play IG. The other assassins are powerful in their own regard if used correctly (just like the Vindicare) but they don't fit my play style at all, so they won't be seeing any modeling time, much less any game time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2717903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
501st Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 @Brom. You are quite right, i stand corrected Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2718056 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techmarine Harkus Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 I was having this discussion with a friend who is also a general fan of assassins. I'll lett you our conclusions. Vindicare - Dosen't really need to have anything more said about him. Whether you personally want to take him or not, saying he is good dosen't mean everyone should take him. Some games he may save the day or direct the flow into your hands if played right, other games he may kill a few guys but not really a lot of help in the grand scheme. I can see cover saves being the biggest cause of this. Real shame he lost his spy mask rule. Would have also been really sweet if he kept his 'you need night fighting roll to see me'. Never mind. Evesor - More expensive than before, but still pretty dangerous. Still not an awful lot of points considering the amount of WSinsane S4 lightning claw attacks he can lay down. He also has a 2+ poisoned ap1 pistol on hand, which you'd be foolish to ignore. If you definitely want an assassin but dont know which one, I'd say this one. He is the most simple to employ by far. Don't let him get shot, get him into combat, let him get on with his job. Units of marines for example should FEAR him on the charge. Callidus - Deliberately commented on after the Evesor, because as combat characters they forfill a similar role, albeit a slightly more subtle than the glass sledgehammer of the Evesor. Polymorphene is cool, but not being able to assault is a bummer. The key is probably not to aim too big and make sure the unit(s) nearby have target saturation, so they are going to have to choose between killing the assassin and not shooting a lot else, or shooting other units for potentially more kills. It all comes down to lines of sight when it comes to this. If she's FAQ'd not to scatter then you may get a few situations where you can place here out of LOS or in cover near the target unit, which may help. The Neural Shredder isn't something to overlook. Although compared to the force weapon wielding troops everywhere else in your army, it's ability to eat through power armor etc is somewhat diminished. Although you are wounding, most likely on 4s or worse, its a template weapon that should get quite a few hits, and it's still AP1. The sword is pretty cool for auto instant death but most things worth instant death-ing are T6 and so she's going to struggle to wound. I prefer the old rules where it ignored invulnerable saves. I also wish she'd kept the A Word In Your Ear rule. That was great fun, and represented her infiltration really well. Culexus - He's probably changed the most out of all the assassins, and probably for the worse. His gun is awesome, if you can get plenty of psychers to juice it up. It's biggest downfall is being range 12, which is rubbish. Like the vindicare, the Culexus will die horrible in assault. Despite an awesome profile for combat, the lack of a power weapon really hurts. In a last game, a single hormagaunt almost killed a Vindicare in combat after lucking out with 3 6+ armor saves. He inface would have died if I hadn't reminded my friend of the assassins 'Synskin rule, he lucked out and got a 6 too. The reason this is a problem, is that range 12 puts anything that survives in charge range. Your opponent might not want to charge your assassins because of other events in the game, and placement of your other units, but if he does, he is most assuredly screwed. He his much more likely to survive than the other assassin thanks to whatever it is that makes opponents take a Ld test to shoot him, on 3D6. I did some math (woo) and a Ld 10 test is roughly 90% likely to pass on 2D6. On 3, that goes right down to near 50% and Ld 8 takes you from ~70% to closer to 25%. He is quite safe. I really liked his rule for reducing everyone nearby to Ld7 (psychic abomination) and it also helped balance him in a GK army by making you think price before cramming all your own models near him so he shoots faster. In melee against a psycher he will probably die, I'd have liked him to keep a weapon (like how old psych-out grenades worked) to see him getting at least a characterful attempt at killing a psycher in combat. Despite this long section of commentary, the potential awesome of his gun, and I own the model... I wont be using him, probably ever. As for Inquisitorial Henchmen, I know a lot of people are eying up spam units, which do look rather cool. For spam, I'd like to try Crusaders. Power weapons, storm sheilds and WS5. Not too shabby for 15 pts a piece. Moving away from canned meat, I think the right combination of Jokaero Weaponsmiths and Servitors firing out of a Chimaira roof or good cover could make for a nice firebase... What the combination is, I dont know because I havn't tested it. I also recon that a properly chosen diverse group could be very nice, although the numbers would be a matter of fine tuning to find a balance. Clearly a few warrior acolytes are probably necessary as ablative wounds though, otherwise your carfully assembled squad may fall apart before it gets to do anything cool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2718132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
501st Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 An interesting thought may be keeping your Cullexe's around to lower the leadership of any enemy anti-psyker units like Psychic hoods, lowering their leadership to 7 would make it easier to overpower the hood Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2718160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lot187 Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 In 3rd edition I was in love with my Callidus. but I have to say I swapped for the Vindicar in my lists recently and he has been doing wonders. Like mentioned earlier the mental pressure of him on the field from your opponent dose a lot before he even fires. Then he fires and it gets worse. I have shot very few infantry so far, just firing a vehicles he has made his points back double over. I want to say maby four games so far and he has wreaked three landraiders. I understand armour 14 may be situational, but even the game that I played against dark eldar when it was way overkill to throw 3d6+3 at an armour 10 vehicle, characters be ware. Arcons 2+ one fail invuln thing was wasted points, and wasted invulnerable saves on the other side of the table in any army is not situational. Im definitely going to keep him in my lists now. poor Callidus, I swear the model knows I wont pay 280 for 4 wounds in any game soon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2719004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon_Stormbrow Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 if you want a good combination of units, take a techmarine (maybe with a conversion beamer) the techmarine can then fortify the terrain your vindicare hides in giving him a 2+ cover save..... it's health insurance for a game changing unit. question.... if you further stacked this with a librarian using his psychic power to give another +1 to cover saves, would that mean he can't be hurt because he has a 1+ cover save? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2719129 Share on other sites More sharing options...
501st Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 @Haakon. Unfortunately not as a 1 is always a fail no matter the roll Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2719167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon_Stormbrow Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 dang, well still it means you could potentially give most of your army a 2+ cover save combining a lib and a techy. kind of a "300" trick for surviving large numbers, a 2+ cover save from shooting wait till they get close then pow wipe em out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2719257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techmarine Harkus Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 An interesting thought may be keeping your Cullexe's around to lower the leadership of any enemy anti-psyker units like Psychic hoods, lowering their leadership to 7 would make it easier to overpower the hood Yep it'd be lovely. If only that rule still existed. And if only the radius for the ability wasnt (I think) 12", meaing he can (could) just be shot up or assaulted. Assaulted being the better option, because of his rules for being targeted, and poor combat prowess (so funny that WS and I crazy and A4 can be considered poor due to the lack of a decent save and a power weapon. Damn.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2719366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkchild130 Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 I'm thinking Eversor, hugging tanks until he gets close (remembering he can still move, then run, then charge so he doesnt lose that much charge range). a possible 10 S5 lightning claw attacks=squad killer. Plus its my favourite mini of all time, so that probably helps :D Darkchild Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2719962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Cover saves don't mean jack when my Vindicare is perched on the highest piece of terrain I can find. The Vindicare has never been without a viable target in my recent games. Unless a transport pops smoke, it's going down. 90% of the time, I only need to use Turbo Penetrator. Insta-gibbing a Librarian/Rune Priest or the transport of a deathstart unit is just too valuable to pass up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2719969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
501st Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 I find taking out that pesky Invulnerable save off any character to be particularly useful if you do it and then in the assault phase jump the character with a dreadknight Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226847-the-other-asssasins-the-inquistiors-the-henchmen/#findComment-2719988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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