Viability of an All-Bike list

[Reichfaust]

I love the idea of Space Marine Bike squads, there's something inherently badass about them. I'm creating my own chapter, and I think it would be cool to have a dedicated biker cavalry company. But would it be viable to play an all-bike, or at least majority-bike list in a game? I wrote up this 1500pt list;

 

HQ

Captain - Bike, Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Artificier Armour, Meltabombs - 200pts

Com.Squad - Bikes, Power Weapons, Storm Shields, Meltabombs - 360pts

TROOPS

Scouts x5 - Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher - 85pts

Scouts x5 - Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher - 85pts

Bikes x8 - Plasma Guns x2, Meltabombs - 250pts

Bikes x8 - Meltaguns x2, Meltabombs - 240pts

 

FAST ATTACK

Attack Bikes x3 - Heavy Bolter x3 - 120pts

Attack Bikes x3 - Multimeltas x3 - 150pts

 

TOTAL - 1490pts

 

I know I'm being greedy with my HQ, hogging more than 1/3 of my total points, but they sure would be tough with 3+/3++ saves and feel no pain! Initially I had a Chaplain in there with them for the re-roll to hit ability, but I figured I could better spend those points on adding a further 3 Attack Bikes. That being said, with my Command Squad having power weapons and storm shields they'd only be getting 10 attacks standard, maybe they need that re-roll? Also, I figured it would be wise to stick those Scout Snipers in there for objective camping/scoring. Not much use taking an all-bike army and not being able to score!

 

So what do you guys think? Is this list viable?

[ShinyRhino]

I very often run a bike-heavy force, and do very well with it.

 

Tip the first:

Take one attack bike out of each squadron, and attach it into the Troops units. If you're dead-set on running 8-man Biker squads, you want the ability to combat squad for double the scoring units. You can't do that unless you have the attack bikes in the Troops units.

I personally run three 5-man squads instead of the two huge squads. Bikes have a HUGE footprint, and 8 of them in coherency is very tough to maneuver around the table. Bikes' biggest weakness is close combat, and the large 8-man squads are too easy for melee units to catch and chop to bits.

My 5-man squads are more flexible, and easier to hide and maneuver.

 

Tip the second:

Scouts in this list are going to get creamed, every time. Biker lists don't babysit objectives. They cripple the opponent by precise application of special weapons fire, and then consolidate on objectives in the final turns of the game. Trade the two Scout squads for another 5-man biker squad with a powerfist sergeant.

 

Being a biker general requires you to be VERY aware of distances, and always have an eye on the clock/turn counter. Distances are important for estimating how far you can move, shoot, assault in a turn. Misjudge a distance, and you can find yourself caught with your pants down and the victim of an enemy charge. Lose track of time in a tournament game, and you can find yourself losing to a decimated opponent by virtue of not being on objectives when time is called.

[awfulawful]

Definitely switch those power weapons on the command squad to lightning claws. They lose the off-hand attack because of the storm shields, so you may as well pick up the re-rolls. Also, four storm shields may be overkill for that unit. They get pricey very quickly. Not a bad idea to give them some plasma or melta either. They can be a nice unit for popping a transport and slaughtering the unit inside.

 

You could also lose the scouts and add another bike squad. I don't have my codex handy, but I think you should be able to get at least a minimum sized squad with some meltaguns with the points (after you spend a few of the points from dropping the scouts changing that one squad of attack bikes from heavy bolters to multi-meltas, the heavy bolter bikes have never impressed me).

 

Also, paging Shiny Rhino. Shiny Rhino, you are needed in this thread. Edit: Ninja'd on this.

[ShinyRhino]

Heavy Bolter Attack Bikes are actually a pretty nifty unit, when correctly fielded.

First, you need to run three of them together. Non-twin-linked heavy bolters will struggle to hit and wound/affect enemies without weight of fire.

If you're facing an opponent that won't get saves against the heavy bolters (typically Horde forces), use your 12" move to get good angles of fire, and apply bolter to face.

If you're facing a mechanized opponent, you'll have to use cunning to maneuver around to the sides and rear of enemy armor. Chimeras, Dark Eldar Raiders, Speeders and suchlike can all be decimated by a volley of 9 heavy bolter shots and up to six twin-linked standard bolter shots, if you're firing on the correct facing. Your ability to turbo boost with the squadron of attack bikes helps keep them alive on the way in.

 

They're not optimal, by any means, but they're also not as useless as the Internets will have you think ;).

[gettothegone]

HQ

Captain - Bike, Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Artificier Armour, Meltabombs - 200pts

Com.Squad - Bikes, Power Weapons, Storm Shields, Meltabombs - 360pts

 

I used to run something like this for a while, but vs Dreadnought heavy lists, melta bombs do nothing to help out out except for relying on luck of 6s. Put a thunder hammer in there for any high T/AV walkers that decide to get into combat with you, so that you have a chance of getting back out. The last thing you want to do is get caught in a "can't kill it unless I roll 6s" trap.

 

Also as mentioned above, toss the power weapons, use claws. The Storm Shield already drops your attacks to 2, a LC will make the most of those.

 

... also this is just personal preference, but drop the Artificer Armor on the Captain. I find that most things you're going to engage him with won't make use of a 2+ save, and ultimately rely on the 3+ anyway, this nets you the pts required for the thunder hammer upgrade.

 

Adding a Chaplain brings some "wow really?" factor to your squad. A Librarian with Might and Korsarro also adds a comical combination when you careen him into tanks.

 

A command squad is a multi assault tool, learn how to use it that way and you can make half an army dissipate in one assault.

 

Scouts will get creamed, agree'd also. I thought about it for the longest time, but bikes don't play the same. You constantly need to be moving, sometimes 3+ movement for 2-3 turns before you're set up to throw that face punch.

 

I'm not a fan of plasma on bikes... gets hot rolls negate everything that's awesome about bikes. T5. Up to you here, but in personal preferences, plasma belongs where you get feel no pain... and melta belongs there moreso.

 

Good luck with your bikes. After moving to a bike army I'll never go back to slow armies again.

[Tech Brother Torgo]

Most of the good stuff has been stated already, but I'd like to point out that my favorite part of a bike list (and it's my favorite kind of marine list) is the ability to position special weapons at the most opportune places possible. With that in mind, building around a core of small troop squads (2 specials, 1 red shirt, 1 sarge no upgrades, 1 MM attack bike) makes for a lot of melta or plasma firepower application. You could easily get 3 in 1500 points, possibly 4, and still have room for your command squad if you want them. On that note, I'd also agree with dropping power weapons for claws. If you want to pump them up even more, drop the bombs and give them some meltaguns instead. When I'm feeling like running a deathstar that's what I use (not below 2000 usually though) and it's plenty of fun.

 

Oh, and are speeders out of the question? If so, I'd personally suggest a couple typhoons rather than the AB squads.

[Ming]

Not only are all-bike lists viable, but seem to be alot of fun for those who have them (SHINY!)

 

If you want the scouts for fun, get rid of one squad and get them the speeder as their transport. Doing one better, instead of the speeder model - get that dune buggy from forgeworld....nothing says fluff better than all vehicles haveing wheels...You could put scout models from the speeder kit into the buggy!

 

Frankly, KAHN. Or look for another force multiplier.

[spartan249]

I think you're going to have to be more conservative with your points, especially in the HQ department. Making them shooty bikes would make more sense to me, as then they would be able to move and fight with the rest of your army. I personally prefer 4 plasma guns, as they are tactically versatile, long range, and you have FnP to soak gets hot wounds.

 

I'm a big opponent of non-biker units in a biker army. Using scouts makes you think in terms of defending a certain location, which is a deathtrap for bikes. Get rid of them and add a biker squad in their place as ShinyRhino said.

[ShinyRhino]

My Biker Command Squad is not so monochromatic. I run with a Champion (power weapon, combat shield, pistol), Apothecary (no upgrades, since they're not legal), Standard Bearer (pistol/chainsword), Veteran One (power weapon, pistol), and Veteran Two (pistol, chainsword).

It's subtly killy when led by the Captain. People look at it and say "Any powerfists? No storm shields? Pshaw!". I then ram it into their face and let fly with four relic blade attacks at I5, and then 8 power weapon attacks and 12 standard attacks at I4. It puts me WAY ahead on combat resolution score.

Will I throw them headlong into a hammernator squad? Hells no. Like every other unit in a biker army, they're a scalpel. Aim for the seams, and you'll open the body with ease.

 

As for plasma on bikers, it's a playstyle choice. I love my plasma bike squad because it can fire at range. I'm less a fan of my melta squad because it requires me to get close to things, and risk a retaliatory charge in the opponent's turn.

 

Bikes do struggle mightily against numbers-based army lists. Ork Mobs cannot be gunned down fast enough to win against. The greenskins are just too cheap. 30 bodies that are Fearless through 20 wounds takes multiple squads several turns to kill. You end up losing to the turn counter.

 

Command Squads in general allow you to pull off some really great tricks. Four flamers and an Apothecary? That's a whole lotta S4 hits, and a whole lotta melee attacks on the followup. The Command Squad is where you can put all your fun stuff, once you've covered your bases with Troops slots, though.

[Reichfaust]

Forgive my ignorance--But I was under the impression that while taking a Biker Captain makes Bikes count as troops on the FoC, they don't however become scoring units. Is this not the case? If so, then I may have just fallen even more in love with Bikes!

 

I would definitely consider taking a Land Speeder squadron, also... I love conversion more than anything else, and would be very keen to make a buggy squad. That would also give me access to typhoon missiles, which would give me some much-needed blast templates for use against hordes and such.

 

As for my command squad, I know it's a bit over the top, but I figured it would be good to have a really powerful CC unit that can take out enemy ICs and stuff. I (mistakenly) thought LCs were power fists that re-rolled to wound, not power weapons. I would definitely take LCs instead. Although I could just as easily take an all plasma-gun command squad, I've heard that works out really well with FNP

[TyrionTheImp]

Agree with changing Power Weaps to LC's, they are statistically better. I like storm shields on Command Squads personally. Your Command squads should basically be your close combat in the army, normal bikers aren't good at it, but a well equipped command squad can put a number on most things.

 

I like the heavy bolter attack bikes in bike lists personally. MM attack bikes don't have rhino's to hide behind in a bike list, and all your squads can take x2 Meltas and pack in a MM Attack bike too (which I would argue in this list is where MM Attack bikes belong), so do you REALLY need MORE melta? The Heavy Bolter Bikes give more dakka, which bike lists need against armies with lots of bodies. Twin-linked bolters are great, but 3 Heavy Bolters are too, and they can move around at 36" and stay out of harms way.

 

I would never put Land Speeders into a bike list. Why? Every single long range support the enemy has will shoot at them, and they'll go down easy. When running an army with no other vehicles, speeders just become too vulnerable, unless you're deep striking them.

 

Scouts will die easy too, I'd suggest taking those out, lightening up on the Command Squad a bit (not everyone needs a storm shield and power weapon), change the second attack bike squad to heavy bolters, get rid of the plasma for melta, and buy yourself a third squad or maybe attach MM attack bikes to your 2 squads. Dropping the storm shield on the captain probably isn't a bad idea either, if he's running with the Command Squad there's other models to put wounds onto with shields, and from a range, most things that penetrate 2+ or 3+ armor (if you wanna drop art armor too), cause ID on your captain.

 

Another option is if you want long range fire support is a squad of devastators. I know, they're overpriced, blah, blah, but they're bodies, which bike armies need not vehicle hulls which will get shot to pieces easily. Of course, give them 4x ML if anything.

 

If you really want to bring scouts, I'd bring them as outflank/infiltrate close combat squads. Why? Bikes can't climb ruins so they can't reach those Long Fangs, Devastators, Dark Reapers, Lootas, whatever, and scouts can. Most infantry long range support is bad at CC, so scouts won't have much of a problem if they've got CC/Bolt pistol, and a powerfist or power weapon sarge.

[Deus de Mortalis]

I play mostly bikes, with assault marines, scouts, speeders, and/or tacticals to back it up. I also like to economize and not take a command squad or add much wargear to the captain. I'm always thinking about how to beat my army, actually I think about it a lot more than how I am going to win with it. ^_^ You need to get in close to do the most damage, but your bikes are highly vulnerable to assault. A pure bike army can only shoot to 24" max, with at least double the firepower at just 12" range, and even closer if you want to get the most out of meltaguns or flamers, so you're highly susceptible to being assaulted. The best way to go is to use their speed to locally concentrate your forces against the enemy. Bikes can also allow you to be sneaky in objective missions, since they can just dart anywhere so fast. You have to be ready to sacrifice a combat squad or attack bike squad to take out a transport, since the occupants will always exact revenge on the squad. A good tactic is to attack the transport from the opposite side of the rest of your forces or to whatever side you want the occupants to end up at, since if they assault (and they kind of have to), it will bring the enemy further away from your main force. Also people say bikes are resilient, but they really aren't. T5 doesn't do jack against strength 7 or above, and since you probably don't have any juicier targets than you bike squads, all your opponent's heavy weapons fire will be poured into them. Also the cover save for moving fast doesn't help against templates, assault, anything AP4 or worse since you have your armor save anyway, and doesn't permit you to fire your own weapons.

 

Forgive my ignorance--But I was under the impression that while taking a Biker Captain makes Bikes count as troops on the FoC, they don't however become scoring units. Is this not the case? If so, then I may have just fallen even more in love with Bikes!

 

They are definitely scoring units. It gets ridiculous with how many units you can have buzzing around when you combat squad everything in an objective mission.

[greatcrusade08]

shinyrhino is to bike armies as i am to scout armies ^_^

hes the man to talk too.

 

generally speaking a T5 army is no to be laughed at, and one where every unit bar HQ scores and can move 12" per turn, rapid fire with TL bolters and other special goodies..

its a tough army to get right, but im guessing its much like my whizzy scout army.. its very satisfying to see it work on the tabletop.

people will underestimate a bike force... the first time around ;)

[Iron Father Rik]

Have you considered Scout Bikers? I don't run a bike list, but I have a unit of Scout Bikers in my rhino based list, and they are awesome!

[greatcrusade08]

Have you considered Scout Bikers? I don't run a bike list, but I have a unit of Scout Bikers in my rhino based list, and they are awesome!

 

damn i missed a prime opportunity to plug a scout unit.

a fully kitted out ten man unit with 3 GL and a fist comes to 275 IIRC, plus the cluster mines are tailor made for a bike army as youll be wanting to steer clear of terrain.

First turn charges and outflanking is always a nice option too

[ShinyRhino]

Landspeeder Typhoons are wonderful support for a biker-heavy list. They are mobile, just like your bikes, and have that beautiful 48" range on their missiles, plus 36" on the heavy bolter.

I typically run a squadron of two in my lists. I striggled for a long time with my biker lists until I added in those two Speeders. I typically start the game with them far back in my deployment zone, hiding behind a building or ruin. Turn One, you move them to get LOS on a target, and unleash hell.

If you've moved 12", you can fire four kraks OR six heavy bolter shots, and four frag missiles. If you move 6", you can fire the six heavy bolter shots, and either the four kraks or four frags. It's a whole lot of damage going downrange. With a biker list, you'll find folks gunning more for your bikes than your fire support that is both across the table, and typically obscured by ruins, trees, or some other terrain. The 12" move really allows you to get great angles of fire no matter what the table layout looks like.

 

Devastators are far too static for use in a pure bike list. Maybe if you're doing a mobile mech list, but never in a pure biker list. You'll be too short on counter assault units to keep them from being eaten up in melee, and their limited movement (read as 'none') before firing kneecaps their versatility.

[TyrionTheImp]

I disagree about the speeders, if they're the only thing with an AV in your army, your opponent's long range guns are going to be shooting those as soon as they can. Yes, it's a lot of fire power, and yes it's versatile, but I just see it as way too fragile in a bike list. Also, mobility with 48"/36" ranges doesn't really add much, as you can shoot pretty much anywhere you need to easily. Also, they take a Fast Attack slot, which I'd rather use for attack bikes who can bring the dakka when needed, or if you really want add more melta.

 

Devastators add more infantry bodies, which means without an AV on the field, those units specifically designed to blow up tanks become useless, unlike with the typhoons they can easily make their points back. As for a "counter assault" unit for the devastators, aren't bikes pretty fast? Okay, so a 5 man dev squad gets killed by say...wolf scouts coming in from your board edge, you can turbo charge back, shoot them up next turn with a squad of bikes, and hopefully you'll have a second (and/or third) squad of Devs ready to blast those scouts too, or keep annoying your opponent with missiles. As for Mobility, you don't need mobility when you have 2 or 3 dev squads (Depending on points cost really), able to touch and hopefully see majority of the board. There's a reason why people bring doubles and/or triples of things.

 

Even if some faster assault elements (jump packs, fast Dark Eldar, whatever), got to the devastators, they aren't hitting your bikes which not only can threaten pretty much everything with their meltas and Twin-linked bolters, but also scoring.

 

For a points comparison, a squad of 2 Typhoons costs 180 points.

5 Man Devastators with 4 ML's cost 150

and if you wanna factor in the fact that the Typhoons have heavy bolters, 2 attack bikes for 80.

 

So, for 230 points, I can get 9 wounds, and the same amount of firepower as the Typhoons who cost 50 points less. However, instead of getting blown up by potentially a single shot, with a lucky roll, you have extra infantry wounds to overload your opponent's anti-infantry firepower, plus the ability to shoot your Missiles and Heavy Bolters at different targets and everyturn as opposed to "if you shoot frag instead of krak". Not to mention one of those missiles can become BS5, not a big deal, but it is there.

 

Speeders are great, don't get me wrong, but I think they go better in mech lists. In a mech list you've got rhinos, maybe some predators, maybe some vindicators, maybe some dreadnoughts, but you've got A LOT of AV's for your opponent to shoot at, therefore your Land Speeders become that much more survivable via target saturation. In a bike list where they are the ONLY AV to shoot at, they suddenly become obvious targets for certain things, where as the Devastators again, become more survivable via target saturation of infantry models.

[ShinyRhino]

You're missing the fact that any lascannon, missile launcher, or other S8 weapon vaporizes your attack bikes in a single shot, and every time you lose one from a squadron, you're rolling Morale tests.

 

You can't call landspeeders bad because you don't like how they play. I've gone multiple tournaments where my landspeeders have never even been scratched because the combination of bikes, Assault Marines, attack bikes, and speeders kept my opponent pressed and harried.

 

The landspeeder versus attack bike argument has been done to death. This isn't the thread to rehash it in. Every single debate of that nature boils down to playstyle preference.

[gettothegone]

If you're shooting my speeders, you're not shooting my command squads. This will last till turn 2.

[TyrionTheImp]

When did I say speeders were bad, especially because I don't like the way they play? Now you're just putting words in my mouth. :cuss If they work for you, great, but I think that it's best in a forum setting to give the OP not just one but multiple answers, and I've given my opinion that I think Devastators and attack bikes are a better choices over Land Speeder Typhoons in a bike list, and then gave answers why, other than "I've used them and they're awesome."

 

I'm well aware a single strength 8 shot can vaporize a bike, but can't the same thing happen to a speeder? I mean, comparing vulnerabilities seems a bit silly, I can say that a single Strength 7 shot can vaporize a Land Speeder (and it can), but the bikes can take the wound and move on at full firepower. Leadership 8 is a pretty safe bet you'll pass your Leadership check, and even if you fail and run off the board (bike armies do have this happen sadly), again, reason why you should take multiples.