Son of Rawl Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Now this is a very cool theory I just read on Whineseer and funny enough it was in the Grey Knight Fluff bitching thread. No, the theory isn't that they're the same person in the same body who alters his appearance. It's more like Wizard of Oz style, where the true "New Man" (ie, the immortal psyker gestalt of the ancient shamans) prefers to rule from behind a genetically engineered, mind-controlled figurehead that we know as the Emperor. It would certainly make sense in the light of how the New Man operated for most of his life - as a trusted advisor and grey eminence, not the ruler himself. If indeed he planned the Heresy, it would be wise to keep the Traitors' attention focused on someone else, while he was free to attend his plans. Note how Malcador turns to dust the second the Emperor returns to the Golden Throne. Or how in "Nemesis" Dorn disagrees with Malcador about Assassinorum and the Emperor appears out of thin air to authorise Malcador's idea What do you think Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Kase Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 I always thought of Malcador as one of the Emperor's Sons - a Sensei in the old fluff. Check out this article : Illuminati / Sensei / Starchild In affect, he is a splinter of the entity that is the Emperor :o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2717487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
zulf Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 i can see how it makes sence. and a theam use in other places as well just look at the NJO books. my biggest question about he emperor was how did he become BIG. he was born to human parents his mind a combination of all the shamen his psyker powers make him immortal but how do you modify you body to that amount with no adverse effects and why would you when you could do it this way? plus it means he's even amore powerful psyker then you thought he was before to fight a life and death battle and power the throne at the same time. it explains why malcador has the power invested in him he does why he is everywhere he is how he can take the primarchs on with no fear and just shake off there rage. and if he planed the heresy it can explane his apparent death. the emperor died almost if malcador was still alive they would look to him to lead so they would both have to go. all in all and ok theory and with everything else thats getting changed maybe this will to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2717528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Id go more with Malcador = Sensei theory. Cant really see how the Emperor/Malcador would be powerful enough to go and eradicate Horus while leaving himself, (or a part of himself?) on the Golden Throne. Plus the Council of Nikea, the pyskers present can see a radiant light coming from the Emperor, not Malky, though maybe it was purposely done by Malcador. You'd think though if it was true then the Primarchs would have been able to tell them apart when they were both together, espiecally Magnus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2717610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Id go more with Malcador = Sensei theory.Cant really see how the Emperor/Malcador would be powerful enough to go and eradicate Horus while leaving himself, (or a part of himself?) on the Golden Throne. Plus the Council of Nikea, the pyskers present can see a radiant light coming from the Emperor, not Malky, though maybe it was purposely done by Malcador. You'd think though if it was true then the Primarchs would have been able to tell them apart when they were both together, espiecally Magnus. didnt the emperor have the ability to hide himself from his sons, and then reveal himself after he won their loyalty? and heck, Corax cant even describe how the Emperor looks as it is always distorted. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2717642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Thats a good point actually, doesnt explain how he could have been strong enough to eventually completely destroy Horus, but still leave Malcador/himself on the Golden Throne. If the Emperor was a fake and it was Malcador who was the real Sensie reincarnate, then the Emperor-fake shouldnt have been able to defeat Horus or fight in the Great Crusade for 200 years without anyone noticing that actually he isnt that great. Unless the Emperor-fake is a lost Primarch, or like a Beta-Primarch. Maybe he was a step between the Emperor-Malcador and the Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2717660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Thats a good point actually, doesnt explain how he could have been strong enough to eventually completely destroy Horus, but still leave Malcador/himself on the Golden Throne.If the Emperor was a fake and it was Malcador who was the real Sensie reincarnate, then the Emperor-fake shouldnt have been able to defeat Horus or fight in the Great Crusade for 200 years without anyone noticing that actually he isnt that great. Unless the Emperor-fake is a lost Primarch, or like a Beta-Primarch. Maybe he was a step between the Emperor-Malcador and the Primarchs. well, lets remember that the only scale of the Emperor's power we have is that the (nearly) eternally fueding chaos gods united to take him down. with that kind of power, is there really any way we can judge what he can and cannot do with it? mind you i dont believe malcador and the Emp were the same being, but what i believe and what is fact dont always align... WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2717669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 It is theorized by some that Malcador The Sigilite is actually one of The Emperor's brothers who survived by his side since their birth in 8000 BC. Sort of like all of the shamans reincarnated into the form of The Emperor.....except THAT guy, who showed up late to the party or something and reincarnated as his brother and inherited an "aftershock" of his brother's powers. With his new brother's help, the shaman who was born into the body of Malcador managed to survive nearly 40,000 years and became in IMMENSELY powerful psyker in the meantime. This logic continues on to postulate that The Emperor was King Arthur, and Malcador was Merlin, and so on and so forth with every lord/hero/leader and his wizard/sage/philosopher/scientist companion. While The Emperor hid his godlike nature and experimented with creating the perfect way to rule mankind, Malcador would've been testing Mankind's approach to the supernatural, and provoking their urge to invent and discover and learn. Herein would lie the idea that The Emperor would've been Lorenzo de' Medici with Malcador taking the role of Leonardo da Vinci, during the Renaissance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2717754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 i have never heard of that theory...sources? WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2717791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Shady Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 It is theorized by some that Malcador The Sigilite is actually one of The Emperor's brothers who survived by his side since their birth in 8000 BC. Sort of like all of the shamans reincarnated into the form of The Emperor.....except THAT guy, who showed up late to the party or something and reincarnated as his brother and inherited an "aftershock" of his brother's powers. With his new brother's help, the shaman who was born into the body of Malcador managed to survive nearly 40,000 years and became in IMMENSELY powerful psyker in the meantime. This logic continues on to postulate that The Emperor was King Arthur, and Malcador was Merlin, and so on and so forth with every lord/hero/leader and his wizard/sage/philosopher/scientist companion. While The Emperor hid his godlike nature and experimented with creating the perfect way to rule mankind, Malcador would've been testing Mankind's approach to the supernatural, and provoking their urge to invent and discover and learn. Herein would lie the idea that The Emperor would've been Lorenzo de' Medici with Malcador taking the role of Leonardo da Vinci, during the Renaissance. Best piece i've seen/heard yet! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2717796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 i have never heard of that theory...sources? WLK By "theorised by some" I mean players, not people "in universe". If I had a memory good enough to site everything I've read....I'd be playing against Ken Jennings. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2717835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 i have never heard of that theory...sources? WLK By "theorised by some" I mean players, not people "in universe". If I had a memory good enough to site everything I've read....I'd be playing against Ken Jennings. Just wondered. I try and read as much Space Marine fluff as i can (except for the DoW series...tried and failed many times) and hadnt heard bout that. kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2717870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 I was thinking something similar but the other way around - Malcador isn't a real person, he's simply a projection by the Emperor to do his "dirty work". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2717904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Kase Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 i have never heard of that theory...sources? WLK By "theorised by some" I mean players, not people "in universe". If I had a memory good enough to site everything I've read....I'd be playing against Ken Jennings. Just wondered. I try and read as much Space Marine fluff as i can (except for the DoW series...tried and failed many times) and hadnt heard bout that. kieran There is that interesting bit in the Lightning Tower Audio Book where Malcador does have a Divinci painting on his wall :D But, I had always assumed that all the painting referenced were done by the Emperor through the years (with the Emperor being Divinci, Rembrandt, etc.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2717953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brannick Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Not wanting to speak for everyone, but I am sure we all agree that there is far, far more to Malcador than we currently 'know' in terms of the fluff - bring it on Black Library. (the guy took a full on wallop from a Primarch with little-to-no side effect). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2718251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Adam Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 I love the idea of the Emperor and Malcador being more or less present through all of human history, but I dont necessarily need them to occupy the same corporeal forms for this to make sense. After all, they are great psychic beings that could possibly phase in and out of existence as we see it to take place in great events in human history and plant the seeds to push humanity in the right direction. Something that can back this is the Age of Strife; In it humanity is plunged into a sort of great depression because of Old Night. How much fluff is there around the Emperor being present and fighting during the Age of Strife anyway? Could it be that the warp storms cut the Emperor off from Earth for thousands of years, and without his divine influence, be it direct or nuanced, that humanity just fell apart? We know that the Emperor basically re-conquered Earth at around 30k, then leading to the great crusade. He isn't a being that was born, he was manifested or anointed with great power early on in life as a human in ancient times (relative to today) IMO. It makes sense to me that Malcador is either his companion through the ages, like a brother or best friend or partner, for example King Arthur and Merlin... but Malcador could simply be an anointed regular human, gifted with powers by the emperor at zero-hour because he needed help in the great crusade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2718279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 The Emperor was born to mortal parents right? Maybe his mother died in child birth (would have been common at the time) and Malcador is his father who the Emperor has been using his powers to keep alive. Bit far-fetched, and i think if it was true then their relationship and how they interact with one another would have been different. Slightly OT but if Gamesworkshop/BL wanted to advance the story a little, and help out the Imperium without completely ruining it for other races they could bring back Malcador. I know its obviously impossible, he has been dead for 10,000 years and theres no way he could have faked his death or been hidden away after sitting on the GT but it would be good for the Imperium. He would be able to remove all the pointless red-tape and political things that limit the imperium and would be a good figurehead and leader, but he isnt a warrior so it wouldnt be like a Primarch coming back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2718568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 I love the idea of the Emperor and Malcador being more or less present through all of human history, but I dont necessarily need them to occupy the same corporeal forms for this to make sense. After all, they are great psychic beings that could possibly phase in and out of existence as we see it to take place in great events in human history and plant the seeds to push humanity in the right direction. Something that can back this is the Age of Strife; In it humanity is plunged into a sort of great depression because of Old Night. How much fluff is there around the Emperor being present and fighting during the Age of Strife anyway? Could it be that the warp storms cut the Emperor off from Earth for thousands of years, and without his divine influence, be it direct or nuanced, that humanity just fell apart? We know that the Emperor basically re-conquered Earth at around 30k, then leading to the great crusade. He isn't a being that was born, he was manifested or anointed with great power early on in life as a human in ancient times (relative to today) IMO. It makes sense to me that Malcador is either his companion through the ages, like a brother or best friend or partner, for example King Arthur and Merlin... but Malcador could simply be an anointed regular human, gifted with powers by the emperor at zero-hour because he needed help in the great crusade. They are psychics, not psychic beings. Both of them WERE born, not manifested. The Emperor's birth/creation is not in question. We know how he came to exist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2718717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Adam Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 why is his birth and creation not in question? where does it say he was born to humans, and why couldnt he take different forms thoughout his life. if he didnt, thered be a lot of 10 foot tall great men in history, and the theory that he was king arthur and malcador merlin would be void. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2719433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Emperor#Origins "The oldest information given on the Emperor's origin relates that he was born to mortal parents many, many millennia ago, manifesting his powers as a youth. One account of the Emperor's origin goes so far as to say that he had mortal brothers and sisters and details the time and location of his birthplace - eight thousand years before the first millenium, in the region of Terra then known as Central Anatolia. This account also claims that the Emperor's birth, while a natural process, was actually the result of a scheme created by the wisest and most powerful of living humans at that time; the conclave of shamans." He could take different appearances though, such as in the Last Church short story in Tales of Heresy, and when he meets some of the Primarchs such as Vulkan. I dnt think anyone has said he cant take different forms to be honest. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2719568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Adam Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Little is known about the majority of the Emperor's life; of who he was and what he did before he emerged as the great Emperor of Mankind, only the Emperor himself remembers.2 A few pieces of information have come to light, from various different sources, and present some small parts of a coherent whole; however, their reliability is often disputed, especially as the Emperor's tale changes somewhat with each retelling same exact page. Its always up for debate before someone actually puts it down 100% like the Heresy series has been doing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2719589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Actually, no. The original source of The Emperor's origin isn't at all vague and it's completely outside of the influence of "Imperial interpretation" because it flat out states it as fact and that no one except The Emperor is aware of it. He can take different forms but they're either illusions or he's a shapeshifter. He's not a psychic spirit that possesses different bodies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2719629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Adam Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 I agree with the shape shifter and illusion thing, i never supposed that hes some sort of phantom making people lose 24 hours of their life as he controls them or anything. But where, other than Lexicanum does it give his origins, was it thoroughly debated and submitted as cannon somewhere or is it in one or many books? I'm relatively new to the 40k universe, but Ive digested massive amounts of info in a relatively short amount of time, i know theres still a bunch i dont know yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2719715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 The original Realm of Chaos books from Rogue Trader days. Can't get them new anymore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2719840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurgling6688 Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 As for the Emperor being huge I don't think he actually is. He is the most powerful psycker is history, he is also described as constantly glowing, which I very much doubt, thats just how he presents himself to people, to awe them. I could see him being a very normal sized person, but in the times of the great crusade he felt the need to project him self as huge. I mean when you create 20 superhuman sons who are gigantic you can't be seen as smaller then them, you are their leader. Or I suppose it could be the other way around, he IS huge and can make himself appear smaller. But I like to think he looks just like a normal guy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226871-malcador-and-the-emperor/#findComment-2720286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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