RetCons in Codex Grey Knights

[FerociousBeast]

Reading through Codex Grey Knights, it is apparent that Mat Ward, presumably with Games Workshop's blessing, has changed quite a bit of fluff--and not only concerning the Grey Knights. To get a handle on what's changed, I'd like to ask this board to list the retcons found in the codex. We can discuss the retcons, whether they are in fact retcons, and their effect on the background, but I'd like to respectfully ask that we not complain about them in this thread. There are plenty of threads elsewhere where we can bash Mat Ward to our hearts' content--within board guidelines, of course. Here, though, I'd like us to use this place to get a better handle on what actually has changed, rather than our feelings concerning what has changed.

 

So, I'll start.

 

RETCON: The Grey Knights are THE Chamber Militant for the Inquisition.

REFERENCE: Page 44: "As the Inquisition's chamber militant, much of the Grey Knights' work lies in the support of individual Inquisitors. Should an Inquisitor encounter a threat beyond his own means, daemonic or otherwise, the Grey Knights are his first recourse."

PREVIOUSLY: The Grey Knights were the Chamber Militant for the Ordo Malleus, the Sisters of Battle were the Chamber Militant for the Ordo Hereticus, and the Deathwatch were the Chamber Militant for the Ordo Xenos. I'm going to predict that Codex: Sisters of Battle, when it comes within the year, will likely not feature an Inquisition presence.

 

RETCON: The Grey Knights dabble in sorcery, including the invocation of the 4 Chaos Gods.

REFERENCE: Among many others, page 24: "It is here that the Librarian will school new recruits in the mysteries that all Grey Knights must know: the six chants of denial [slaanesh], the seven words of life and death [Nurgle], the eight songs of battle [Khorne], the nine terrible spells that form the basis of all magick [Tzeentch] and much more besides."

PREVIOUSLY: The Grey Knights were aligned with the Puritan philosophy, and would never touch or associate with the tools or agents of Chaos. This codex completely scraps that idea.

 

RETCON: There is no real difference between psykers and sorcerors.

REFERENCE: Page 7: "Truly the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men..."

PREVIOUSLY: Psychic power was previously considered to be a natural potential of the mind that a person was born with, while sorcery was the acquisition of power from the warp gained through dark rituals and pacts with Chaos beings. A sorceror might or might not have psychic power, though those that did were often able to increase their psychic potential through their sorceries.

 

 

I think each of these are pretty huge changes, and the first and third have huge effects on the entire setting, not just on the Grey Knights. What else have you found?

[Wahotsu]

first, what is RETCON?

anyways

 

first: it is my understanding that the inquisition governs all three, and that they merely focus on specific areas of operation.

 

second: perhaps these are set this way to help combat those that serve chaos.

 

third: i agree. psykers and sorcerors are seperate, but may be both.

[spu00sed]

Is the borrowing of Deimos a Retcon?

 

I am sure their is some necron fluff that has Deimos still orbiting Mars.

 

And why bother stealing it? It is about the size of a Ramiles Star fort.

[StormTAG]

RETCON: There is no real difference between psykers and sorcerors.

REFERENCE: Page 7: "Truly the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men..."

PREVIOUSLY: Psychic power was previously considered to be a natural potential of the mind that a person was born with, while sorcery was the acquisition of power from the warp gained through dark rituals and pacts with Chaos beings. A sorceror might or might not have psychic power, though those that did were often able to increase their psychic potential through their sorceries.

 

This was kinda how I understood it forever. Manifestations of Psychic power came from the warp. Sorcery comes from the warp. How you get your power out of the warp may involve different practices, different methods or different incantations but the ultimate result is... Human will affects the Immaterium, causing an effect in the real world.

 

Keep in mind, the Chaos beings are all just manifestations of our own will as well. So, even if you make a pact with a Chaos God, all you're doing is tapping into collective will of the universe, rather than using your own. Still, same thing happens. Will + Warp = Effect

 

Every human has some warp essence (except for nulls) and thus has some influence on the warp. The more powerful you are, aka, the more Psychic energy potential you have, the stronger your warp influence. Thus, the more powerful your warp influence, the easier it is for you to create effects. Similarly, if you enter into a pact with a daemon, you gain access to powerful warp influence, which makes it easier for you to create effects.

 

It's Yin and Yang. Internal and External. However, it all comes from the same place.

[FerociousBeast]

first, what is RETCON?

anyways

 

first: it is my understanding that the inquisition governs all three, and that they merely focus on specific areas of operation.

A retcon is when earlier "canon" for a fictional universe is changed by something published later.

 

Your understanding is an accurate representation of the previous fluff that has now apparently been changed by Codex Grey Knights.

[CanisD]

RETCON: Retroactive continuity, basically changing existing canon and saying that the new version is the way its always been. Not really anything new as far as GW is concerned. They've changed things before. For example in 2nd Edition the Space Wolves had normal scouts like all the other chapters, not the elite scouts they have had since 3rd edition.

[Wahotsu]

Storm, that was awesome.

 

EDIT: thank you for the explaination.

[Codicier Lucion]

I regard all this as fanfiction by Ward, please don't start a argument in here over this, due to the frequently contradictions in every aspect of 40K, but I feel that these supposed retcons should be listed in full. Here's a few i've found out:

 

Khorne followers can now be defeated by the use of blood.

 

The Warp is now tangible meaning people can walk around and survive inside it without any problems, many locations such as Nurgle's Garden are now literal locations rather than simple aspects of something greater downsized to something mortals can comprehend, the overall corrupting effects of the warp is no longer what it once was.

 

The Grey Knights are now apparently powerful enough to just shrug off and ignore any corrupting effects of the warp and are more or less capable of generating their own Gellar Fields.

 

Daemons are outright destroyed by the Grey Knights rather than just banished.

 

They Grey Knights now make deals with Xeno races on a regular basis.

 

There is a long standing alliance between Malleus radicals and the Eldar Harlequins.

[Wahotsu]

i guess i'm glad i don't read the fluff anymore.

 

*ach*, *retch*

[Joasht]

You guys should have realized all the fluff in the GK codex is not canon after reading Draigo's fluff.

I mean, seriously, read his fluff and tell me how is it that he is not actually the Emperor? He basically walks around in the realm of Chaos itself, beating everyone up. That sounds a billion times more awesome than the Emperor ever was even when he was alive.

[Codicier Lucion]

The Grey Knights are now easily capable of fighting on par with even the strongest daemons* as a result of Dreadknights, 'more immune' Grey Knights who were already immune to the effects of the negative Warp, and horribly powerful characters. There is no longer a David vs Goliath theme to the army any more.

 

The entire command structure of the Grey Knights has changed, focusing upon brotherhoods and such.

 

It is now confirmed that they use the gene seed of the Emperor rather than several pre heresy Legions as the Horus Heresy Black Library material was working towards.

 

The Grey Knights have no problems allying themselves to rogue Inquisitors who use daemonhosts, use daemon weapons and openly consort with chaos.

 

The Grey Knights see nothing suspicious about one of their members summoning ghosts of their fallen and another of their Justicars apparently turning into a highlander.

 

There are apparently only one thousand Grey Knights rather than the supposed three thousand there were previously.

 

They see nothing wrong with slaying the innocent, those who also fight for the Inquisition I.E. the Sisters of Battle, so they can use their blood in chaos rituals.

 

EDIT: Also, if Draigo's background is anything to go by, the Warhammer 40,000 time-line now extends far beyond the end of 41M.

 

The Grey Knights now guard a doomsday weapon known as the Terminus Decree.

 

* - Not including those made by Forge World. Let's be thankful he's not gotten around to trying to 'even the odds' against the greater daemon characters they made yet.

[StormTAG]

You guys should have realized all the fluff in the GK codex is not canon after reading Draigo's fluff.

I mean, seriously, read his fluff and tell me how is it that he is not actually the Emperor? He basically walks around in the realm of Chaos itself, beating everyone up. That sounds a billion times more awesome than the Emperor ever was even when he was alive.

 

Cool model with decent rules though. :)

 

I think I'll just pretend he's "pre-M'kar Reborn" Draigo though when I play him.

[Daedalus Templarius]

Wouldn't the "realms of chaos" just be a daemonworld in the eye of terror or the maelstrom, or another place of sufficient realspace/warp overlap?

 

Also, I guess I can see how they worked the psyker/sorcery angle, but this was also explored quite a bit in Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns, in that "sorcery" is a pact/agreement with daemons of the warp, and being a psyker just means you can channel the energy of the warp through yourself to make things happen like pewpew lightning bolts.

 

The fluff with the sisters and anointing with blood was pretty awful though.

[FerociousBeast]

I wouldn't define the SoB blood thing as a retcon. It's just a little story. Retcons affect either the setting or previously told stories. The SoB thing is a new story, so it can't be defined as a retcon. I'm hoping this thread will serve to highlight those things that we used to know and now do not.

 

While much of the stuff being listed so far in this thread may very well be crappy fluff, it's not necessarily retconned fluff.

 

@Daedalus Templarius: Yeah, A Thousand Sons definitely seemed to me to be an attempt to solidify the definition of sorcery as warpcraft and daemonic. So I'm really surprised to see that Ward was allowed to change the definition so drastically so soon.

[Wahotsu]

while some may not agree, and i am completely fine with others opinions, i personally love the way grey knights were portrayed in the ben counter books.

[Codicier Lucion]

Mortarion has been severely beaten down by a certain Grey Knight and has a name carved into his heart. One of the two he presumably has anyway.

 

The Grey Knights were supposedly the Emperor's fail-safe upon dying and passed on secrets about warp craft they shared with no one else, giving them defences no one else has save for the Emperor.

 

Most Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors now apparently turn directly to the Grey Knights for help rather than their own militant wing: the Sisters of Battle.

[Billy Butcher]

Did he retcon the size of the grey knights?

 

I always thought they numbered closer to 6000 not the 1000 in this codex.

[Oiad]

Reading through Codex Grey Knights, it is apparent that Mat Ward, presumably with Games Workshop's blessing, has changed quite a bit of fluff--and not only concerning the Grey Knights. To get a handle on what's changed, I'd like to ask this board to list the retcons found in the codex. We can discuss the retcons, whether they are in fact retcons, and their effect on the background, but I'd like to respectfully ask that we not complain about them in this thread. There are plenty of threads elsewhere where we can bash Mat Ward to our hearts' content--within board guidelines, of course. Here, though, I'd like us to use this place to get a better handle on what actually has changed, rather than our feelings concerning what has changed.

 

So, I'll start...

Very well presented start. This has the potential to become a resource thread for future Inquisition players to reference through. Probably not your intention but kudos anyway. :blush:

 

I think I'll just pretend he's "pre-M'kar Reborn" Draigo though when I play him.

To me, that's what the intended purpose in using Draigo has been all along - much as Celestine or DC Tycho are meant to be treated pre-death. The 'Lord of Titan' rule doesn't make much sense otherwise.

[AoC]

2 dreadknights are capable of beating 4 greater daemons (1 of each god).

[Codicier Lucion]

Did he retcon the size of the grey knights?

 

I always thought they numbered closer to 6000 not the 1000 in this codex.

 

Last I read there were three thousand of them prior the this new Codex.

 

One last possible retcon I know of: The Grey Knights now harbour daemons in the form of weapons if Crowe is anything to go by.

[Notanoob]

The Doom of Malan'tai no longer sucks souls out of Eldar Soulstones, as N'kari was able to gain power from them. Oh, wait! Ward just wasn't thinking. :blush:

[FerociousBeast]

I always thought they numbered closer to 6000 not the 1000 in this codex.

That was my understanding, too. Anyone have the Index Astartes article on the Grey Knights to confirm?

[StormTAG]

Storm, that was awesome.

 

EDIT: thank you for the explaination.

 

No problem. Keep in mind, that's just my understanding. But it seems fairly cohesive in the grand scheme of things. Orks use their own latent warp influence to make da red unz go fasta! Eldar use all of their psycho-tech to make use of the warp. Daemons spontaneously manifest in our world as thoughts and emotions made flesh. Chaos Sorcerers tap into powerful warp entities to produce their spells. The Astronomicon is a huge pillar of soulstuff that is used as a homing beacon in a universe where the only constant is thought.

 

It can even explain some of the silliness in the Draigo story, though it is a bit of a stretch. Draigo is a powerful psyker with indomitable will, both of which can affect the Immaterium. One could go so far as to say that his adventures in the warp were his own unconscious manifestations. He wanted to take the fight to the daemons, so the warp played off those powerful emotions and created fights for him to take.

 

In a universe where thoughts and feelings have very real power, one can understand how the Imperium turned out like it did.

[Daedalus Templarius]

@Daedalus Templarius: Yeah, A Thousand Sons definitely seemed to me to be an attempt to solidify the definition of sorcery as warpcraft and daemonic. So I'm really surprised to see that Ward was allowed to change the definition so drastically so soon.

 

I think I'll put my trust in Graham and Dan as to the true nature of sorcery/pskery rather than Ward.

 

 

while some may not agree, and i am completely fine with others opinions, i personally love the way grey knights were portrayed in the ben counter books.

 

I admit, I did enjoy the GK books, I hope Ben does at least one more, where Alaric is a super-awesome Inquisitorial crusader.

[Codicier Lucion]

Oh, two more things which came to mind:

 

Arrogance, hubris and pride apparently no longer equal corruption if you are a Grey Knight. At least going by Draigo's background anyway.

 

One of the things which supposedly gives the Grey Knights their immunity to Chaos is that they carry the Emperor's gene seed. This is contradicted by the entire basic plot of the Horus Heresy and the fallen Primarchs.