RetCons in Codex Grey Knights

[Inquisitor Fox]

Personally, I'm all for this fluff being brought up again. In my mind it never died in the first place, especially when the Star Child idea was also rebrought up in Xenology from the Black Library. It appears as if my own models fluff is still canon even if no one else really seems to discuss the Illuminati, the Thorians, and the Inquisition *grins*

Okay, that I did not know about. Where was the Star Child theory mentioned in Xenology?

It's hidden and non-obvious if you don't know what you're looking for, so don't feel bad :P

 

At the very end of the book, there is a tablet, of Eldar manufacture I believe, that the protagonist is discussing. This is the tablet with the human embryo looking image in the upper left hand corner. As a qualifier, I am at work and the book is at home, so I will double check myself later tonight to ensure I am not speaking gobbledegook when I attempt to remember what it reveals. I seem to recall it speaking about a new being being born that will combat/end chaos. I will readily admit that it is murky and if you don't already know the Star Child fluff it seems like some wonky thing that they're throwing out at you, but if you are already aware of it it seems like a pretty obvious clue/hint. It also seems similar to the prophecy of a new god being born as the Eldar die, however that brings interesting questions as to whether the Star Child and Ynnead are the same being... wouldn't that be a "whodathunkit" ? :D

[FerociousBeast]

Re: the "retcon" of Grey Knights working with the Xenos.

 

I don't view this as a retcon so much as a development. Yeah, purge the alien, etc etc, but the Imperium and even the Space Marines have always been kind of flexible about aliens when they need to be. In 2nd edition, Imperial armies could ally with Eldar, and digital weapons have always been said to be the work of the Jokaero. In fact, it used to be one of the defining features of the Dark Angels that they WOULDN'T, under any circumstances, ally with xenos.

 

The Grey Knights using xeno technology in this book does not strike me as a betrayal or retcon of their previous character.

[Reldn]

Personally, I'm all for this fluff being brought up again. In my mind it never died in the first place, especially when the Star Child idea was also rebrought up in Xenology from the Black Library. It appears as if my own models fluff is still canon even if no one else really seems to discuss the Illuminati, the Thorians, and the Inquisition *grins*

Okay, that I did not know about. Where was the Star Child theory mentioned in Xenology?

It's hidden and non-obvious if you don't know what you're looking for, so don't feel bad ;)

 

At the very end of the book, there is a tablet, of Eldar manufacture I believe, that the protagonist is discussing. This is the tablet with the human embryo looking image in the upper left hand corner. As a qualifier, I am at work and the book is at home, so I will double check myself later tonight to ensure I am not speaking gobbledegook when I attempt to remember what it reveals. I seem to recall it speaking about a new being being born that will combat/end chaos. I will readily admit that it is murky and if you don't already know the Star Child fluff it seems like some wonky thing that they're throwing out at you, but if you are already aware of it it seems like a pretty obvious clue/hint. It also seems similar to the prophecy of a new god being born as the Eldar die, however that brings interesting questions as to whether the Star Child and Ynnead are the same being... wouldn't that be a "whodathunkit" ? ;)

 

Hmm....I'm gonna have to read through my copy of Xenology again, I remember the tablet and that image, but, definitely do not remember the Star Child reference. *laughs* As many times as I've read Xenology you'd think I'd have seen that at least once in my readings. Definitely quite interesting, thanks for mentioning where it is!

[Inquisitor Fox]

Well.. I at least thought it could be a buried Star Child reference... it could be something else, but it made me smile when I read it ;) Inquisition and hidden secrets after all...

 

As I think about it, the fact that the Harlequins, being Eldar, are the ones teaching humanity about the Star Child... when the Eldar also have a myth about Ynnead... and the Emperor using symbols like skulls, death, a corpse god... and Ynnead being associated with death and the dead... it gives a lot to ponder doesn't it?

 

Glad I could add a bit of something to these discussions with some of my wonky thoughts.

[Gree]

Is there a date on when M'Kar was defeated in the latest Ultramarines novel?

 

Yes, in the Ventris novels the 13th Black Crusade was recorded as happening in the novel before. And he was imprisone dinthe Star Fort before 965 and only slian in 999.

[Codicier Lucion]

While allying with aliens is a little on the Radical side for members of the Inquisition, it's legally permissible under Imperial Law for Rogue Traders to "sanction" xenos as allies.

 

That's just the problem though, Grey Knights do not work with radicals. In the last codex if a radical Inquisitor was to turn up having obviously bent or outright broken the Imperium's basic laws (gone rogue) then the Grey Knights would kill he or she on sight. Thus they'd only be able to use Stormtroopers.

 

Plus they were also unyielding paragons of the Imperum's values, it wouldn't matter if they were sanctioned or not. The Grey Knights would not work with aliens. At best they'd wait for the aliens to kill someone they needed dead and then walk in and finish the victor off.

 

The problem is that the Grey Knights of Wardhammer, as opposed to Warhammer, aren't as interesting. They frequently resort to sorcery, ally with aliens, agree to the summons of rogue Inquisitors, use alien technology and daemon allies.

They're boring out of character forces who rather than relying upon discipline, willpower and sheer skill to prevent themselves falling to chaos instead flaunt their immunity and get a free pass.

 

As for the Jokero themselves, I don't have a problem with them. Fluff wise they've been around long enough and I can see Inquusitorial armies using them, Inquisitorial armies not Grey Knights, and they're abilities are useful.

Though quite what use a non sentient ape with skill at smithing weapons is on the battlefield i'll never know.

[Heru]

It's worth remembering that a retcon is not the same thing as a "new development".

 

A retcon is when something, presented as fact in the setting, is explicitly changed.

 

Like- in Codex Space Marines and Codex Blood Angels, the fate of M'Kar, as compared to the newest Graham McNeil novel.

 

In Codex Space Marines:

Page 40: 935.M41: M'Kar is slain by the hand of Lord Macragge, who tears the upstart Daemon Prince limb from limb.

 

In Codex Blood Angels:

Page 16: 965.M41: Rejecting M'Kar's dastardly deceptions, Mephiston throttles the life out of his captor, but not before a sinister seed of doubt worms its way into his heroic heart.

 

But- in the newest Ultramarines novel, Graham McNeil portrays M'Kar as having been imprisoned in the star fort, rather than "slain" ever since 935.M41.

 

This, is a retcon. If it was written before Codex Blood Angels came out, Codex Blood Angels can be taken as "retconning it back".

Note that Matt Ward wrote both Codex Space Marines and Codex Blood Angels (aswell as Codex Grey Knights). So techically that trumps McNeil's novel even if it came out after the Codices. The assumption would be that McNeil got his M'Kar from Codex Space Marines, and hasn't read Codex Blood Angels.

[Codicier Lucion]

Note that Matt Ward wrote both Codex Space Marines and Codex Blood Angels (aswell as Codex Grey Knights). So techically that trumps McNeil's novel even if it came out after the Codices. The assumption would be that McNeil got his M'Kar from Codex Space Marines, and hasn't read Codex Blood Angels.

 

Actually he was first mentioned in the fifth edition Tyranid codex:

In 997.M41 M'kar transformed the entire Agri-World of Sondheim V into his private pandemonium. Shortly after, Hive Fleet Leviathan (or Hive Fleet Kraken depending on the source) descended upon the planet, and the Sky Sentinels Chapter were dispatched to reclaim it. However, upon seeing the situation, they opted to call in Exterminatus.

 

Ward later started using him frequently in, well, everything and added this bit to the story:

A stay of execution was ordered by Grand Master Vardan Kai when he arrived at the planet leading a Grey Knight strike force. The Exterminatus was to be delayed to give enough time for the Grey Knights to capture the Book of Pandegaras, a cursed tome which had given M'Kar the power to alter the planet. The Grey Knights made planetfall and made it through the twisted landscape to the temple in which the book was stored, but they quickly became overwhelmed and trapped by both Tyranid and Daemonic forces. Kai contacted the Sky Sentinels fleet and ordered them to bombard the temple site. The Grey Knights superior armour protected them from the bombardments, but the Daemons and Tyranids were not so fortunate. As the bombing stopped, the Grey Knights evacuated with the Book of Pandegaras whilst the Sky Sentinels began Exterminatus of the planet. When the cleansing of the planet was completed the Sky Sentinels surrendered themselves to the Grey Knights for mindwipe.

 

One small thing to note is that people have congratulated Ward on bringing back mindwiping of Space Marines upon facing daemons. Well, based upon this he clearly doesn't know how to use it considering the Sentinels never actually saw the daemons face to face.

 

Also, another retcon: Grey Knight armour can apparently now survive lance strikes from orbiting fleets.

[Heru]

One small thing to note is that people have congratulated Ward on bringing back mindwiping of Space Marines upon facing daemons. Well, based upon this he clearly doesn't know how to use it considering the Sentinels never actually saw the daemons face to face.

No he brought back mindwiping of Space Marines upon meeting Grey Knights. That is why the Sky Sentinels were mindwiped. Ward's mindwiping or mass IG genocide isn't about mental purity, it's simply about keeping the Grey Knights secret.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Keep in mind there are levels of Radicalism. Grey Knights would not ally with someone using Daemonhosts.. however many many Radicals exist that do not create Daemonhosts. Some would call anyone with psychic powers a Radical, however such could still be on good terms with the Grey Knights. Just as in modern religion, or politics, or philosophy, or any "judgement" call of morals there are degrees of interpretation.

 

The fact that in the last Codex a person who fielded Daemonhosts could not field Grey Knights, does not mean that Grey Knights refuse to work with any Radical simply because he is a Radical.

[Codicier Lucion]

No he brought back mindwiping of Space Marines upon meeting Grey Knights. That is why the Sky Sentinels were mindwiped. Ward's mindwiping or mass IG genocide isn't about mental purity, it's simply about keeping the Grey Knights secret.

 

If they don't know who they are and have no idea just how important they are to the Imperium, why did they willingly allow themselves to be mind-wiped without any resistance?

 

Space Marines don't just agree to everything the Inquisition does and do think for themselves rather than being totally subservient.

 

The Sentinels just had an entire force of Inquisition serving daemon hunting Space Marines who supposedly did not exist tell them to hold the exterminatus so they could loot a chaos artifact.

Who then proceeded to fight their way across a world infested by both Chaos and Tyranids and survive a direct orbital bombardment on their position with no negative repercussions and then tell the Sentinels they need to be mind wiped so they don't remember them pillaging said chaos artifact.

 

Some of them might just be very slightly suspicious of the Knights after that and have a few reasons not to agree to the mindwipe.

 

Keep in mind there are levels of Radicalism. Grey Knights would not ally with someone using Daemonhosts.. however many many Radicals exist that do not create Daemonhosts. Some would call anyone with psychic powers a Radical, however such could still be on good terms with the Grey Knights. Just as in modern religion, or politics, or philosophy, or any "judgement" call of morals there are degrees of interpretation.

 

The fact that in the last Codex a person who fielded Daemonhosts could not field Grey Knights, does not mean that Grey Knights refuse to work with any Radical simply because he is a Radical.

 

For the sake of simplicity i'm just calling Inquisitiors Radical when they start frequently using Xeno or Daemon assistance in either technology, lore or direct support. Usually when they're becoming very obviously radical and not puritan.

When they reach the point when puritan inquisitors would either avoid them or call them heretics and the Deathwatch, Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle would start shooting them on sight.

[Iron Lord]

In Deathwatch, the Deathwatch don't take sides in the disputes between puritan and radical inquisitors. And they themselves use xenos technology.

 

It also points out that, when it comes to alliances with the xenos, they have more self-control- other Imperial arms might be prone to shooting their xenos allies in the back at the wrong moment, but not the Deathwatch.

 

so- "shoot on sight" might be more for puritan inquisitors- with the Deathwatch being more careful.

 

So now, it seems that the Grey Knights have the same "self-restraint"- if a Radical inquisitor were to call them in to deal with a daemonic incursion, and they saw he was a Radical, by the implications of the army list, they wouldn't "shoot him on sight"- but deal with the incursion first.

[A D-B]

One small thing to note is that people have congratulated Ward on bringing back mindwiping of Space Marines upon facing daemons. Well, based upon this he clearly doesn't know how to use it considering the Sentinels never actually saw the daemons face to face.

No he brought back mindwiping of Space Marines upon meeting Grey Knights. That is why the Sky Sentinels were mindwiped. Ward's mindwiping or mass IG genocide isn't about mental purity, it's simply about keeping the Grey Knights secret.

 

I sort of wonder why the Silver Skulls and Exorcists suggest candidates to the Grey Knights recruiters, though.

 

Curiouser and curiouser.

[Son of Rawl]

I was always under the impression that Grey Knights would not work with an Inquisitor if he used Chaos at all, I'm just wondering how this goes down.

 

Inquisitor: We have a daemon invasion to stop Grand Master

Grey Knight Grandmaster looks at the Inuisitors hand to see a daemon weapon, and then behind him to see 10 daemonhosts

Inquisitor: oh, ignore them they are cool

[the jeske]

didnt they change the ratio of aspirants taken by GK too . If the fluff in the GK is right [and why shouldnt it be?] then any huge lose like first armagedon must have ended with huge scourging of all imperial held sectors .

 

all GK aspirants are on the same level as other chapter space marines ment for the librarium . If it takes 1milion of those to make 1GK [and even if the survival ratio for librarian sm in other chapters would be 1000 to 1 . it would still mean a trade of 1k sm librarians for 1 gk] , then GK would need huge recruting fleets . I mean 1milion aspirants strong enough to be librarians would be more then even the most psychic active sectors can produce . Plus GK would have to get those before other chapters or inq or astropaths get their hands on those.

[Lord Cuthbert]

I think that this thread is at the core of why the material published from the Black Library isn't worth hanging your hat on. Sure the stories are pretty entertaining, even if the bulk aren't written very well, but it introduces so much contradiction to the background information that was developed early on. Anyone remember when there was no Chaos? The CSM were nothing more than traitors to the Imperium. Then GW added the Daemonic forces and retconed the CSM as fallen under Chaos' sway. Now they did add that the rest of the Imperium still saw the CSM as traitors and are unaware of Chaos, so this brought in the GK whose job it was to face the terrible truth and deliver the Imperium from the forces of Chaos. The GK were just as much a myth or unknown force as Chaos, and that is the reason for when other Imperial forces encountered them they were mindwiped, to keep the secret from the populace at large. Heck even the SM chapters are more legend than real to the citizens. Now we have all these interactions between SM chapters, CSM legions, Inquisitors, GKs, Rogue Traders, IG Regiments and it muddies up the original background to how the Imperium functions int he universe at large. So as far as I'm concerned there isn't anything new about these changes they have been happening for a long time. Now that it is affecting the book fluff some folks are critical, join the club I've been saying that about the book crap for the last 10 years.

[Codicier Lucion]

In Deathwatch, the Deathwatch don't take sides in the disputes between puritan and radical inquisitors. And they themselves use xenos technology.

 

It also points out that, when it comes to alliances with the xenos, they have more self-control- other Imperial arms might be prone to shooting their xenos allies in the back at the wrong moment, but not the Deathwatch.

 

so- "shoot on sight" might be more for puritan inquisitors- with the Deathwatch being more careful.

 

Two of the specific space marine chapters who make up the forces in Deathwatch are the Space Wolves and Black Templars. Do you really see either of those chapters showing any restraint not to accuse a person of heresy if he or she were to turn up to a battle carrying a brightlance or with a hellcannon?

 

Could you please list where it noted the xenos technology they use and what page it states they use them though, i'd be interested to read this for myself.

 

So now, it seems that the Grey Knights have the same "self-restraint"- if a Radical inquisitor were to call them in to deal with a daemonic incursion, and they saw he was a Radical, by the implications of the army list, they wouldn't "shoot him on sight"- but deal with the incursion first.

 

It's not so much restraint as full blown heresy that they're practising now. Daemonic rituals, sorcery, harbouring infernal beings, using daemon weapons and allying themselves with rogue inquisitors. They're not pragmatic, they're willing to use full blown chaos rituals and get a free pass on it because they're supposedly immune to Chaos now.

 

I also agree with Havoc's scenario to highlight how ludicrous this idea is.

 

 

I think that this thread is at the core of why the material published from the Black Library isn't worth hanging your hat on. Sure the stories are pretty entertaining, even if the bulk aren't written very well,

 

Name a few, not using C.S. Goto's works as examples. Sorry, if you're going to bash authors I'd like to know whose books you're calling not well written.

 

but it introduces so much contradiction to the background information that was developed early on. Anyone remember when there was no Chaos? The CSM were nothing more than traitors to the Imperium.

 

Yes, that was before we had things like Imperial War Robots, Imperial allied beastmen, Chaos Androids and Squats; long before 40K began to become a proper universe.

Hell, we had 'Ultra Marines' as space police back then. The fluff developed and became more interesting, GW kept most of the stuff which worked and moved forwards. Hell, the current fluff only began to come into true existence with Battle for Armageddon game.

 

Also, Ward's not only managed to leave contradictions in the most basic aspects of 40K here, contradicted a great many other codexes, but he's managed to contradict himself in the same book on a few occasions. Not to mention the massive plot holes and idiotic decisions.

 

Grey Knights killing sisters of battle so they can beat Khorne, anyone?

 

Then GW added the Daemonic forces and retconed the CSM as fallen under Chaos' sway. Now they did add that the rest of the Imperium still saw the CSM as traitors and are unaware of Chaos, so this brought in the GK whose job it was to face the terrible truth and deliver the Imperium from the forces of Chaos.

 

Again, back before the fluff began to properly develop and we moved on dropping a lot of ideas, keeping what worked. The game developed beyond that and it became more interesting, the Knights were relatively unknown to anyone outside of the Inquisiton but weren't purely limited to them. The end to the First War for Armageddon alone shows this.

 

As for Chaos, technically many parts of the Imperium still do not know of it, but that is only mentioned in a few Black Library books. Most of the current codexes don't bother to bring it up that often.

Besides, the ecclesiarchy seems to work best when it is fearmongering. The best result of that is when they use daemons as villains.

 

The GK were just as much a myth or unknown force as Chaos, and that is the reason for when other Imperial forces encountered them they were mindwiped, to keep the secret from the populace at large. Heck even the SM chapters are more legend than real to the citizens.

 

And?

 

Now we have all these interactions between SM chapters, CSM legions, Inquisitors, GKs, Rogue Traders, IG Regiments and it muddies up the original background to how the Imperium functions int he universe at large.

 

Some people would actually call interaction between those different groups development rather than something inherently bad. It makes the fluff between them interesting, highlights the contrasts between them and actually allows them to fight one another in major battles. When done well and not openly being written by a gibbering chimp anyway.

 

Besides, things like the Cadian Gate wouldn't work that well if there were supposed to be no interactions between different factions of the Imperium.

 

So as far as I'm concerned there isn't anything new about these changes they have been happening for a long time. Now that it is affecting the book fluff some folks are critical, join the club I've been saying that about the book crap for the last 10 years.

 

Not really. Again, it breaks many of the most basic fundamental ideas behind 40K like 'entering the warp is bad for mortals'. The Grey Knights look nothing like their previous incarnations, few similarities between them can be found save for what they fight and that they all wear power armour and use force weapons; and it really does crap on the last ten years of canon.

 

Even ignoring the things from Black Library there is still a hell of a lot it contradicts in other codexes, army books, rulebooks and basic ideas behind the universes. What's more is that Ward himself seems to only be willing to use stories he likes and ignores others, hence one certain incident involving blood rituals by Grey Knights after slaughtering loyal Sisters of Battle.

[number6]

Nothing to get all worked about. ^_^ One man's fluff is another man's unfluff. For example, I for one think it's cool that the GKs are more sorcerous than they were in the past, and are willing to go so far as to slaughter Sisters of Battle in order to pull off a magical rite of protection. ^_^

 

But by the same token, I'm not surprised that the notion offends others and their view of what the Grey Knights "are".

 

To each their own.

 

Without question, the fluff is contradictory. Also without question, GW changes its own fluff at will, at a moment's notice, and doesn't bother making any excuses about it.

 

The 40K universe is what it is. Complicated, complex, contradictory. Thus has it always been. Thus it shall always be. ^_^

 

The fact that they can make rather major changes to the GK fluff and not offend me -- a GK fanboi -- is a testament to how malleable and resilient the core concepts of the 40K universe are.

 

Nevertheless, it is inevitable that GW's fluff changes aren't going to please everyone. But I don't think it's something to worry about too strongly. Just ignore what you don't like and play up what you do.

 

By way of example, I was having a Codex: Daemonhunters-only fluff discussion just yesterday with friends of mine -- also B&C members and moderators -- who were surprised at my notion that the GKs were nearly as autonomous as any other Space Marine chapter. They were all convinced that the GKs were all but totally subservient to the Ordo Malleus! Based on numerous past discussions in this forum, I know that most people here would not agree with that (myself included, obviously).

 

The point is: we all read exactly the same material yet came to radically different conclusions. And all of us could point to fluff passages that supported our views. And yet ... nothing could ever be definitive. None of us could "prove" anything.

 

That's the nature of 40K fluff. Nothing is truly set in stone. There are merely broad brushstrokes that paint a general impression. We players end up filling in the blanks in ways that we like most. There is no right or wrong way to do this. And we also inevitably block fluff passages that don't agree with our personal notions.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. In fact, I'm willing to bet GW does what they do on purpose, because it invites all of us to take personal interest in their products. That makes us happy customers and them a profitable business.

 

In the end, and to repeat: don't be too bothered by what you don't like. Just ignore it and move on. You're doing the right thing when you do. :)

[Iron Lord]

Could you please list where it noted the xenos technology they use and what page it states they use them though, i'd be interested to read this for myself.

 

Page 138:

The resources of the Deathwatch exceed those of any traditional Chapter. The wargear in a Watch Fortress has many sources: equipment specialized to the purpose of fighting xenos forged by the Deathwatch's own artificers, tithes from the Chapters sworn to the Deathwatch, Inquisitional support, caches revealed by the cryptic Omega Vault, and even technology captured during thousands of years at war with the alien.

 

Page 151:

EMP Grenade

A rare example of xenos technology employed in limited capacity by the Deathwatch, the exact form of such a grenade varies with its origin.

 

On Deathwatch nonviolent interaction with xenos:

Page 268:

The size, skills, and flexibility of a Deathwatch Kill-team mean they often find themselves in situations unique to the Adeptus Astartes. Often at the behest of the Chapter Master or the Inquisition, a Kill-team may be dispatched as part of an envoy to a wayward Imperial world or even an alien empire, either alone or as part of an Imperial emissary's entourage. This can serve a number of purposes, such as making a show of force, keeping lesser Imperial servants in line, or even honouring an ally with the presence of Adeptus Astartes representatives. In this capacity, Battle-Brothers may have to use their tongues rather than their boltguns to influence proceedings.

 

Page 315:

Despite the many clashes between Humanity and the Eldar, there have been many occasions when the two races have fought side by side. This is generally when a common enemy, usually Chaos, is faced. However, the Eldar have also lent their power to the fight against the Tyranids. Such operations are tense, for the common soldier is indoctrinated to hear and fear the xenos, and the Eldar, all too human in their appearance, are especially reviled. Even the most disciplined of Space Marines finds it hard to stay his hand against such enemies, and it is often the case that the Deathwatch is the only force able to share a battlefield with the Eldar without losing control and opening fire on their allies.

 

Outside of the Deathwatch book, there is the Hrud Fusil in Graham McNeill's Warriors of Ultramar, that the Deathwatch use to cut through the Norn Queen's natural armour, so they can inject the poison it.

[DerekLee688]

Also, another retcon: Grey Knight armour can apparently now survive lance strikes from orbiting fleets.

 

If the Sky Sentinals were the tipical Astartes fleet, then they would have had torps, cannon batteries, and Bombardment cannons on Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges. I'd imagine they only used ordinace to kill nakid daemons and squishy nids and held back the stuff that would bring down Tanks, carnifexes, TDA, and Soulgrinders.

[Prathios]

Just a quick note on using xenos technology and the radicalism of the Grey Knights. For starters, All technology in the Imperium has xenos influence on it. Reason: The Emperor chained the Void Dragon under the surface of Mars so that his dreams would influence the direction of the mechanicus technology. Which means that everything the mechanicus uses has its roots in Necron tech.

 

Next, the chainsword. The entire galaxy uses this weapon. Out of curiosity who do you think was using it first, the Striking Scorpions of the Eldar or the Imperium? Or do you believe each culture came into the use of this weapon wholly independently. Much like everything else the Emperor was pragmatic in his use of tech.

 

Finally on radicalism - The Inquisition has constant dealings with xenos. The Eldar and the Inquisition are constantly in talks. This does not go against the teachings of the Emperor. The whole, Burn the mutant and heretic stuff is from the Adeptus Ministorum. Imperial Creed as dictated by the Imperial Cult defines these ideas which most people adhere to. However, the Emperors own philosophy was more pragmatic and during the Great Crusade many alien cultures were left to deal with the Imperium. It was the Emperor himself that allowed for the charter of Rogue traders to deal with xenos.

 

So my ultimate feelings are that any knowledgeable agent of the inquisition should be hesitant and apprehensive with xenos, should they blaspheme the Emperor at all they forfeit their lives. But should an alien be of benefit then the Imperium could use all the help it can get. Keeping the populace at large ignorant of how the Imperium truly deals with aliens is to maintain civil control of them. Which is probably good for the survival of the Imperium. Why do Space Marines typically hate xenos so much? Because they do no venerate the immortal Emperor. Doesn't mean we can learn how to use their tech...

 

(Side note: I really hated the butchering the sisters to create a spell. If they really are as proof against warp powers the blood flow shouldn't have been any different. Basically I feel many of Wards retcons actually damage the idea that the Emperor empowers his servants against the warp. I guess the Emperor just is not up to it any more so now we have to consort with chaos to fight... chaos?)

 

*end rant*

 

The Emperor Protects.

[Sothalor]

Actually, I have a sneaking suspicion based on recent material that GW is moving more towards the idea that the Emperor is empowering his subjects/playing some kind of active role, but the idea is getting lost in execution and presentation. Things like the Legion of the Damned in the SM codex, the Sanguinor of the Blood Angels, and possibly Thawn and Draigo in this codex seem to be hints that there's something at work. It's mostly overshadowed by the bad writing, but that's another thread.

[Inquisitor Fox]

That's actually not really a new theme, it goes to the notion of Divine Avatars and the Thorian branch of the Inquisition. A great example is Sebastian Thor himself, and his ability to quell warp storms, be utterly untainted by Chaos, almost curiously so...

 

Fluff for this is in the Witch Hunters Codex, the old Sisters of Battle Codex, and the Thorian Sourcebook for the Inquisitor game.

 

I continue to postulate it's not really new fluff, it's reiteration of old fluff that many people just didn't know about.

[Sothalor]

Ah, agreed. Would it be fair to say then, that they are emphasizing/reemphasizing certain aspects, as well as perhaps expanding the "influence" of the Emperor? What I mean is traditionally Imperial miracles seem to be the domain of the Sisters of Battle and Ecclesiarchy, while the Astartes appear to be getting in on the action come 5th edition fluff.

[Gentlemanloser]

Bring back the Sensei?