RetCons in Codex Grey Knights

[Midwest]

WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR IMPERIAL VALUES PEOPLE!

THE EMPEROR IS A SECRET RADICAL ORK FOREIGNER!!!

 

On-topic, regarding being the chamber militant yet independent, couldn't the GK be "considered" as the militant wing of the Inquisition yet be a separate institution from them? In the same way that Space Marine Chapters are completely independent yet are typically dependable if a local planetary gov or sector lord calls on them for help?

 

I'd imagine that Inquisitors are fairly confident that GK will help if/when called upon, to a degree that the GK essentially act as the Inquisition's primary military force despite not being an actual part of the Inquisition. Just maybe a way of reconciling the two.

 

As for chamber militancy and SOB/DW...I guess my thoughts are that DeathWatch don't seem to really fight as a full army. Granted the GK probably do a lot of stuff piece-meal, but the new book seems to imply they are much more organized around 'companies' like a traditional Chapter. Don't know if that's to imply they typically fight at that scale too.

 

With Sisters of Battle...I'm wondering if they're meant to be fully moved over to being the 'official' army of the Ministorum? Personally I would love a "local Imperial" book with Sisters, Arbites, PDF, and whatnot. Basically I has a lot of Adeptus Arbites models needing fielded. ;-P

[Brother Captain Kezef]

WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR IMPERIAL VALUES PEOPLE!

THE EMPEROR IS A SECRET RADICAL ORK FOREIGNER!!!

 

On-topic, regarding being the chamber militant yet independent, couldn't the GK be "considered" as the militant wing of the Inquisition yet be a separate institution from them? In the same way that Space Marine Chapters are completely independent yet are typically dependable if a local planetary gov or sector lord calls on them for help?

 

I'd imagine that Inquisitors are fairly confident that GK will help if/when called upon, to a degree that the GK essentially act as the Inquisition's primary military force despite not being an actual part of the Inquisition. Just maybe a way of reconciling the two.

 

As for chamber militancy and SOB/DW...I guess my thoughts are that DeathWatch don't seem to really fight as a full army. Granted the GK probably do a lot of stuff piece-meal, but the new book seems to imply they are much more organized around 'companies' like a traditional Chapter. Don't know if that's to imply they typically fight at that scale too.

 

With Sisters of Battle...I'm wondering if they're meant to be fully moved over to being the 'official' army of the Ministorum? Personally I would love a "local Imperial" book with Sisters, Arbites, PDF, and whatnot. Basically I has a lot of Adeptus Arbites models needing fielded. ;-P

 

That's exactly what they are doing, rumours have it due in 2012 with sisters and arbites in the sae codex

[Codicier Lucion]

Nothing to get all worked about. :P One man's fluff is another man's unfluff. For example, I for one think it's cool that the GKs are more sorcerous than they were in the past, and are willing to go so far as to slaughter Sisters of Battle in order to pull off a magical rite of protection. ;)

 

But by the same token, I'm not surprised that the notion offends others and their view of what the Grey Knights "are".

 

To each their own.

 

...

 

Heresy!

 

Alright, but in all seriousness I usually agree with you in this sort of thing. Hell, when most new players turn up believing Ward's tripe and playing Ultramarines because they think all other chapters are inferior to them, follow them as being infallible paragons of the Imperium and are second only to the Emperor I tend to try and ignore them. Or have my Soul Drinkers wipe the floor with them when they try to prove their army's innate superiority but the point is I try to avoid most of the unnecessary conflicts.

 

The problem is that this is the fourth army book Ward has managed to wreck now. Every time people choose to ignore his stuff and not speak out against what he writes just means there's nothing to make Games Workshop reconsider putting him in charge of yet another codex. And the newcomers believe everything he says is true. They believe that Ultramarines are the greatest chapter who ever lived and none can come close to their excellence due to their inferior lineage, they think that Necrons and Xenos can be diplomatically dealt with and reasoned due to the Blood Angels codex, and the Grey Knights speak for themselves.

What about when he starts moving onto other Xenos races like the Eldar, Tau or Necrons. Just how badly do you think he's going to screw them over? He'll probably end up basing the Eldar on C.S. Goto's books, which contained things like Eldar Slannesh worshippers and Gabriel Angelous apparently beginning to fall into a romantic relationship with a Farseer. Or most Eldar Farseers being unable to see into the future and being puppets for the Eldar ruling cast.

 

If he's just allowed to keep writing we're not going to have anything of 40K left. There's just going to be Wardhammer 40,000 in its place, something which might as well be self parodying itself.

 

Without question, the fluff is contradictory. Also without question, GW changes its own fluff at will, at a moment's notice, and doesn't bother making any excuses about it.

 

The 40K universe is what it is. Complicated, complex, contradictory. Thus has it always been. Thus it shall always be. ^_^

 

"Everything is canon and nothing is canon."

 

The thing is though that most of the things which are contradictions or seem to cancel out other details relating to them tend to get explained. They're also not entirely obvious and can be minor things most of the time. Unlike Ward's fanfiction they aren't contradicting themselves within the same book or constantly being made by the same author.

 

Or suddenly have things like promoting one Chapter Master of one founding Chapter to being the liege lord of all space marines everywhere.

 

The fact that they can make rather major changes to the GK fluff and not offend me -- a GK fanboi -- is a testament to how malleable and resilient the core concepts of the 40K universe are.

 

Except for when the Grey Knights begin to apparently turn into caricatures of themselves and can only be recognised as being the Grey Knights due to the fact they still hunt Daemons.

 

Nevertheless, it is inevitable that GW's fluff changes aren't going to please everyone. But I don't think it's something to worry about too strongly. Just ignore what you don't like and play up what you do.

 

By way of example, I was having a Codex: Daemonhunters-only fluff discussion just yesterday with friends of mine -- also B&C members and moderators -- who were surprised at my notion that the GKs were nearly as autonomous as any other Space Marine chapter. They were all convinced that the GKs were all but totally subservient to the Ordo Malleus! Based on numerous past discussions in this forum, I know that most people here would not agree with that (myself included, obviously).

 

I stand by what I said at the beginning of this post.

 

The point is: we all read exactly the same material yet came to radically different conclusions. And all of us could point to fluff passages that supported our views. And yet ... nothing could ever be definitive. None of us could "prove" anything.

 

Except that most of the fluff passages to help defend Ward's fanfiction tend to specifically come from things he has written. Or barely relate to anything made by someone who actually has some vague idea of what 40K is.

 

Except for when Ward utterly screws up several decades of very good fluff with his fanfiction and contradicts some of the most basic aspects and rules behind 40K. Again, Draigo. It's hard to believe that he's actually trying not to intentionally wreck Warhammer when this is the umpteenth time that he has apparently doing everything he can to make fans hate his codexes.

 

That's the nature of 40K fluff. Nothing is truly set in stone. There are merely broad brushstrokes that paint a general impression. We players end up filling in the blanks in ways that we like most. There is no right or wrong way to do this. And we also inevitably block fluff passages that don't agree with our personal notions.

 

Except that, as noted before, that's going to become increasingly difficult with Games Workshop allowing him to vomit anything he likes up onto each codex. Yes, blanks can be filled by the fans and theories created in many cases as to what has happened in certain things. I can think of quite a few fan theories which have become quite prevalent, the Dark Angels' role in the Heresy for starters, but those have always been suggestions and ideas or created based upon heavily opinionated accounts of characters.

 

You say that nothing in 40K is set in stone, and yet Ward seems to think that his stuff is. Rather than making suggestions towards something or hinting at things he outright says it. All space marines want to be the Ultramarines. All chapters are inferior to them. Guilliman is venerated by all chapters and worshipped by all marines no matter what primarch they came from. The Grey Knights do use sorcery to kill things, and they are 100% immune to the warp etc.

 

He seems to be writing in absolutes most of the time, stating that all he puts onto the codex is entirely accurate, 100% true and is undeniably canon in spite of how ridiculous and contradictory it might be to the rest of the game.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. In fact, I'm willing to bet GW does what they do on purpose, because it invites all of us to take personal interest in their products. That makes us happy customers and them a profitable business.

 

In the end, and to repeat: don't be too bothered by what you don't like. Just ignore it and move on. You're doing the right thing when you do. :)

 

As noted before that's going to become very hard when you can no longer use the rulebooks which actually have anything half decent written in them and they have all been replaced by Ward's tripe. At the end of the day it just seems that Games Workshop is just interested in cash and not any of the story behind Warhammer. So long as they can make it looks shiny enough to have kids go out and spend their money on it and milk it to its fullest extent they couldn't care just how bad the fluff being written is.

 

The few bits which actually seem to take the canon into proper consideration and don't turn 40K into some jumped up parody of itself come from the authors in Black Library, all of who Ward seems to have taken personal dislike to based upon his current contradictions in the Grey Knights codex. Most notably Chapter's Due which had the author apparently trying to dispel a great deal of the paragon fluff Ward had written about the Ulramarines, showing they could make mistakes, they were flawed and they did have to run to allies to win some battles.

Also, the Raven Guard in it didn't bow before Calagar and treat him like a god.

 

*snip*

 

Okay, that's actually pretty acceptable. I was expecting something far worse from the way it was made to sound. Most of the diplomatic relations with aliens and the use of alien weapons sound as if they're rare exceptions and generally a very occasional thing. From the way it sounded I was expecting Deathwatch marines to continuously go around looting various Tau installations for their advanced equipment to replace their bolters and armour with, and the entire Deathwatch wearing Tau battlesuits and carrying gauss weapons, rather than this.

 

Though my point with the Space Wolves and Black Templars still stands.

 

As for the Eldar, I can understand that point having read enough books with the Eldar and Imperials having allied to combat a greater threat for themselves. I was just expecting something much worse like the Deathwatch and Orks suddenly being close and very reliable allies or the Inquisition runs to a Xenos race every time it has a problem.

 

Outside of the Deathwatch book, there is the Hrud Fusil in Graham McNeill's Warriors of Ultramar, that the Deathwatch use to cut through the Norn Queen's natural armour, so they can inject the poison it.

 

It's also noted as it is introduced that the marine wielding it feels a great deal of distrust for the weapon and generally feels wrong using it in any way. It's also suggested that the main reason he is using it was because Kryptman convinced him it was just a mixture of simple melta and plasma technology.

 

If the Sky Sentinals were the tipical Astartes fleet, then they would have had torps, cannon batteries, and Bombardment cannons on Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges. I'd imagine they only used ordinace to kill nakid daemons and squishy nids and held back the stuff that would bring down Tanks, carnifexes, TDA, and Soulgrinders.

 

That just makes even less sense. Most ships in 40K are miles long colossi made of rows upon rows of guns, heavy armour and fire shells at least the size of blue whales at one another. The more advanced ones tend to also be designed to drill through armour first before going off with the force of several megatons of explosives. Most of these things would probably take out the larger creatures such as soulgrinders and 'fexes.

They also tend to be very inaccurate and have to target single, unmoving large targets to actually hit anything or be guided in on something. In the codex's case presumably the Grey Knights vox signal.

 

And you're saying that they were firing multiple heavily inaccurate building sized shots from bombardment cannons, so they would give the Grey Knights a better chance to survive orbital support?

 

 

That's actually not really a new theme, it goes to the notion of Divine Avatars and the Thorian branch of the Inquisition. A great example is Sebastian Thor himself, and his ability to quell warp storms, be utterly untainted by Chaos, almost curiously so...

 

Fluff for this is in the Witch Hunters Codex, the old Sisters of Battle Codex, and the Thorian Sourcebook for the Inquisitor game.

 

I continue to postulate it's not really new fluff, it's reiteration of old fluff that many people just didn't know about.

 

The thing is that the cold war between the Thorians and other factions of the Inquisition was always made interesting because we never knew which side was truly right. They could both be seen as being in the right, both had equal chance of being correct and it was left to individual interpretation of players or GMs to make plots about it. Suddenly having Ward stating that one side was always 100% right makes it far less interesting.

 

In addition to this having there actually be divine avatars of the Emperor in play during the game really detracts from the theme of the failing Imperium who are fighting alone against a tide of darkness. Adding a divine benefactor actively working with them actually makes it seem like the Imperium has a chance of winning the war against chaos or xenos races.

[Inquisitor Fox]

We still don't know which side is "right." That's also not to say that just because another side believes the Emperor is working on a divine plan and the Imperium shouldn't change Anything because they don't want to mess that plan up isn't "right" as well. You can have multiple philosophies be "right."

 

Alright, in some senses we're starting to get a little offtrack of the real intent of this thread, which is to list some of the ret-cons in the new Codex. It's not to bash Matt Ward or decide that we all hate the new book or it needs to be struck from the face of the Earth :rolleyes: We're not debating whether the ret-con was good or bad, we're listing them.

[Valerian]

Alright, in some senses we're starting to get a little offtrack of the real intent of this thread, which is to list some of the ret-cons in the new Codex. It's not to bash Matt Ward or decide that we all hate the new book or it needs to be struck from the face of the Earth ;) We're not debating whether the ret-con was good or bad, we're listing them.

 

 

One thing that perhaps we should define, in any effort to discuss fluff and any potential "retcons" of fluff, is what you are going to include. If you are just going to stick with the Design Studio stuff, then you've got a much smaller "core" of background material to consider: this 5th Edition Codex: Grey Knights, the 3rd Edition Codex: Daemonhunters, the mixed Grey Hunters/Deathwatch Index Astartes article from White Dwarf, the original Slaves to Darkness section on the Inquisition, Ordo Malleus, Grey Knights, and the Grey Knights army list, and then a handful of other Grey Knights articles that have been in White Dwarf magazine over the years.

 

If you chose to include Black Library novels, then that opens up a whole new can of worms, as there is much more material to consider, and that material is written by a broader variety of authors, with much less oversight than the Design Studio.

 

It is up to y'all to figure out what the appropriate boundaries are for the discussion and go from there. I have found over the years on the Space Wolves subforum that it is best to define the boundaries on what you are going to consider prior to diving into any fluff discussion.

 

Best regards,

 

Valerian

[Codicier Lucion]

Ignore the last couple of posts to list one more retcon I have just found out about:

 

The Grey Knights mysteriously appeared during the second founding when Titan appeared out of the warp carrying a thousand Grey Knights on it. And no one thought this the slightest bit suspicious. Apparently Malcador the Sigilite hid the planet in the warp using Micro-Gellar Fields and "sorcerous incantations".

Apparently he decided they were going to be of no use against the great chosen one of the Chaos gods when he attacked Terra. Horus also apparently didn't notice a whole moon going missing and thought nothing of it.

 

In yet another sign of truly bad story telling only eight people, the first Grey Knights, were apparently on it when it went in and yet hundreds were on it when it came out again.

[Gentlemanloser]

In yet another sign of truly bad story telling only eight people, the first Grey Knights, were apparently on it when it went in and yet hundreds were on it when it came out again.

 

And the 100,000 recruits Malcador had already placed there...

[Codicier Lucion]

In yet another sign of truly bad story telling only eight people, the first Grey Knights, were apparently on it when it went in and yet hundreds were on it when it came out again.

 

And the 100,000 recruits Malcador had already placed there...

 

Sorry, I meant to type astartes on there rather than people, I was in a rush when I put that down. What I meant to comment upon was the lack of actual marines in any great number being left to do their job on Titan.

Even by a chapter's standard having only eight marines being left to implant the gene-seeds, train them and actually kill any warp gribblies which might take notice of a whole damn moon with a good number of mortals and try to break through the sorcery and 'micro Gellar Fields; protecting it.

 

In addition to this, did this mean the Grey Knights also had to maintain the gene seed, know how to give each new battle brother their armour, perform all the correct rites, and perform hundreds of other tasks alone? Not to mention the psychic training a such.

[Iron Lord]

Apparently Malcador the Sigilite hid the planet in the warp using Micro-Gellar Fields and "sorcerous incantations".

 

The phrase used was "Macro-Gellar Fields".

 

Like "Macro-cannons" for the giant cannons on starships.

[Prathios]

When I approach correct fluff I do so using a method I've honed after spending years reading comics. Not even Matt Ward can touch the comic industry in its treatment of continuity or consistency with concern to the fluff. So in the end what we have to do is the law of averages combined with the original intent.

 

Now I won't say that I'm the most knowledgeable person in the universe with concern to the fluff in 40k but I'm pretty high up there. I've read about half the of the black library now. And on top of that I've spent countless hours scanning lexicanum, reviewing the fluff in the rule books, looking through old editions of the codices and reading all manner of other material (Like the wonderful Imperial Guardsman's Uplifting Primer). After going through all of this stuff I simply take a look at the big picture, the most consistent bits and the stuff that sticks out like a sore thumb. I'll have to fully admit that I find Wards stuff to seem a tad juvenile in comparison to the majority of the fluff out there. It seems like there is nobody at GW that has a macro-approach to the fluff they created and edits these things for continuity.

 

I understand the needs for retcons, they sometimes need to be done. However the problem arises when the retcons need retcons. Honestly I find the fluff and back story in the Fantasy Flight RPG books to be of vastly higher quality than GW's own codex entries. Ive had lots of players argue that only the fluff in the codices are cannon or usable. The problem with that to me comes from the fact that it's largely contradictory, poorly written by most standards, and outnumbered 20x1 by other sources.

 

So what is the fluff? Fluff is the law of averages. It's the stuff that manages to stay set in stone regardless of how abused it has been once or twice by authors who lost their minds. It is indeed a testament to how wonderful the 40k universe is that it manages to ride these waves without collapsing under the silliness that has invaded many of these codices. So far I've been pretty disappointed with all of the 5th ed books from a flavor standpoint, from the hotshot lasguns carried by storm troopers (Hot shots are single shot battery packs that have a rapid fire rule??? wth??? why do storm troopers have single shot weapons??? where did the hellgun go?) to the wolf riding space marines in Space Wolves. Now I have to try and ignore the fact that Grey Knights murder sisters of battle to cast chaos sorcery. I must admit this is pretty close to the same level of disrespect for the fluff as Superman flying around the Earth to go back in time.

[Oiad]

Hehehe, so true on the comicbook comment. Surely crossovers into WHFB aren't far off? :tu:

 

Also agree with the Fantasy Flight RPG comments. Imo, FW are also of a higher quality compared to the recent codices. This is on purpose. The main GW codices are now seen as the entranceway into WH40K. They're there primarily for the rules and to give newcomers and casual gamers something to introduce them to 40k. This includes youngsters, who I feel will really love the proliferation of special characters and their heroic tales. FW and it's ilk are there for more hardcore fanatics, those who really want to sink their teeth into the universe and learn its intricacies. Unless by accident, you're not going to find start-ups immediately leaping to their models and rules. Same goes for the FFRPG, which is no doubt there to appeal to long time players looking for something different while still encircling the same setting. If I didn't believe it was a personal hobby where we should take from it what we want, I'd suggest that as such the more indepth material should take precedences over codices. The arrival of the FFRPG: DH book couldn't have been better timed for die-hards looking for the justification and depth they crave that will have been missed in the new codex.

 

EDIT: 17/04/11 - Grammar.

[Iron Lord]

Quite a bit of stuff that first appeared in codicies, have made it into Fantasy Flight books, though.

 

The Knights of Blood as Renegade but still willing to defend the Imperium (Codex Blood Angels 5E)- in Deathwatch: Rites of Battle.

The Feast of Blades (originally in Codex: SM 5E)- a tournament for Imperial Fists and their successor chapters- in Deathwatch: Rites of Battle.

 

Thunderwolf cavalry- mentioned in Rogue Trader: Battlefleet Koronus, as an example of a heavy cavalry unit.

 

And so forth.

 

So far I've been pretty disappointed with all of the 5th ed books from a flavor standpoint, from the hotshot lasguns carried by storm troopers (Hot shots are single shot battery packs that have a rapid fire rule??? wth??? why do storm troopers have single shot weapons??? where did the hellgun go?)

 

The term "hot-shot lasgun" for the stormtrooper weapon, appears in Imperial Armour 5: Siege of Vraks I (page 88) as an alternative term for the hellgun- which was published in 2007, before 5E came out.

[Prathios]

Quite a bit of stuff that first appeared in codicies, have made it into Fantasy Flight books, though.

 

The Knights of Blood as Renegade but still willing to defend the Imperium (Codex Blood Angels 5E)- in Deathwatch: Rites of Battle.

The Feast of Blades (originally in Codex: SM 5E)- a tournament for Imperial Fists and their successor chapters- in Deathwatch: Rites of Battle.

 

Thunderwolf cavalry- mentioned in Rogue Trader: Battlefleet Koronus, as an example of a heavy cavalry unit.

 

And so forth.

 

So far I've been pretty disappointed with all of the 5th ed books from a flavor standpoint, from the hotshot lasguns carried by storm troopers (Hot shots are single shot battery packs that have a rapid fire rule??? wth??? why do storm troopers have single shot weapons??? where did the hellgun go?)

 

The term "hot-shot lasgun" for the stormtrooper weapon, appears in Imperial Armour 5: Siege of Vraks I (page 88) as an alternative term for the hellgun- which was published in 2007, before 5E came out.

 

See all of this is ok though, all this really means is we know have the basis for consistency. Which means the ability to ignore it as silly is reduced. For better or worse, it's adoption in the FF stuff solidifies these items. So that's fine with me.

 

As for the hot shot lasgun as a seperate term, if it's just the name and not an actual "hot shot" weapon then that is fine. It's terrible writing though to name something that already has a name, and furthermore to call it something that already fraking exists. So from a fluff standpoint, if it's a hellgun they need to bloody well call it a hellgun.

[Iron Lord]

I think the idea, is that the "hot shot laspack" generates a lasbeam comparable in punch to that of the hellgun.

 

hence- since they're similar in punch (but one is single shot whereas the other is rapid fire) that might be where the nickname came from.

 

My guess is they renamed it, to ensure that they didn't have two weapons with the same name but different stats- since they were boosting the AP of the imperial guard weapon to 3 (while reducing the range slightly).

 

So currently, the Witch Hunters codex has "hellguns" whereas the Guard and Grey Knights codicies have "hot-shot lasguns".