Tomlev40 Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 So we know the story that at the Siege of Terra, all was lost until Horus tried to lure the Emperor onto his ship and let the shields down. But what if the real Horus inside the corrupted one broke free and ordered the shields down to kill himself and get rid of the Chaos fleet, like Night Haunter allowing the assasin in for retribution. Your comments? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artein Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 My theory is still that it was not Horus but Little Horus. ;) I hope that Age of Darkness won't prove me wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2718634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 My theory is still that it was not Horus but Little Horus. :tu: I hope that Age of Darkness won't prove me wrong. Seconded. I like the idea of Horus breaking through the thing he became, but the later battle against the Emperor, and what we know of it, would result in a few logic problems. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2718680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Descendant Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 My money's on Horus Aximand, or another remorseful astartes onboard the Vengeful Spirit. That's based on the assumption that it was someone other than Horus though, it still makes a bit of sense to me why Horus himself would want to lure the emperor in close Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2718687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 All stories point to Horus learning that the Space Wolves, Dark angels and Ultramarines were mere hours away, and Horus recognizing that he had no chance of winning unless he took the fight to The Emperor himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2718851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark VII Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 True, but that could just be imperial storytellers touching up the whole thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2718875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 That's not just in a historical context though. That's how it is in the "happening now" context of Horus Heresy Visions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2718933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Engel Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 I like the idea that it's Horus Aximand's moment of reconciliation. Why else would you insert a character with the same name as your central one who's never existed before? Horus Lupercal's retribution can be the moment before the Emperor destroys his soul, in some kind of timeless soul-communion. Let Aximand do something cool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2718934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 I like the idea that it's Horus Aximand's moment of reconciliation. Why else would you insert a character with the same name as your central one who's never existed before? How about to give some depth to a Legion, and highlight the fact that the implantation of geneseed can change the implantee's appearance? Not everything in the Heresy books has a sinister second meaning. I can understand the "he's been wracked by guilt and doubt ever since the betrayal" explanation, and see some merit in that, but not "they have the same name! That must mean they have a big, secret role for Aximand!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2718962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 But with them having the same name, saying Horus let down the shields still fits even if it was Horus Aximand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2719068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 All stories point to Horus learning that the Space Wolves, Dark angels and Ultramarines were mere hours away... Not so, over the editions, and still very much up for debate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2719077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dràyhèn Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 But what if the real Horus inside the corrupted one broke free and ordered the shields down to kill himself and get rid of the Chaos fleet, like Night Haunter allowing the assasin in for retribution.Your comments? If you're implying that he was possessed, then I think you're a little off the track. It has been hinted at, in the Visions, that when the powers the Gods had filled Horus with fled, a veil was lifted from his eyes and he saw the error in his ways. That implies that his thoughts were somehow clouded by the corruption, but never does it state that he was possessed in the sense that you imply. In the sense that, for example, Fulgrim was. I think that he had control over himself all the time, but that his thoughts were too clouded, twisted and corrupted for him to pierce the veil and see the enormity of his actions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2719179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ju'kosian Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 My theory is still that it was not Horus but Little Horus. :P I hope that Age of Darkness won't prove me wrong. Me too :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2719189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brannick Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 It would be a tragedy if the BL authors allowed it to be Aximand who was responsible for lowering the shields. 99.9% of us are now expecting this, so I hope they use an alternate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2719244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 I still think its a good idea even if everyone already thinks its going to happen <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2719580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerelius Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 The is only one person who knows the Vengeful Spirit so well that he would be able to lower the shields giving Him a chance to get on board....... I AM LOKEN!!!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2719630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 That's not just in a historical context though. That's how it is in the "happening now" context of Horus Heresy Visions. I disagree. I feel that what we took for the truth before was just the Winner getting to write the history. The Horus Heresy books coming out now are the first hand accounts of those who lived through it. The difference is what happens to history as time draws on. 10,000 years can change alot. I think the fact that we are getting them in a backwards order, prequel, makes people hate on them to much. Like people not liking Episode one because it changes things. Then they blame it on Jar Jar... "happening now" is what was always in the minds of the game creators in a vague sense. Maybe not so much detail. The Authors when asked say that they do a lot of research in the old fluff. You can tell if you look for it. That is why Garro Tarvitz and Verran have been used. When people don't like how a story goes in the HH they are too quick to blame BL. It is not thier fault that certain people live when they seem like they should have died. and it wont be their fault if Lil Hours turns out to be the "Hours" who lowered the shield. We will have them to thank for letting us know the truth though. They should be getting our thanks and not scorn. I like the idea that it's Horus Aximand's moment of reconciliation. Why else would you insert a character with the same name as your central one who's never existed before? How about to give some depth to a Legion, and highlight the fact that the implantation of geneseed can change the implantee's appearance? Not everything in the Heresy books has a sinister second meaning. I can understand the "he's been wracked by guilt and doubt ever since the betrayal" explanation, and see some merit in that, but not "they have the same name! That must mean they have a big, secret role for Aximand!" Not that this will come as a big surprise but i totally disagree. Looking at these book with a supper suspicious eye is exactly what is needed. What ive learned about story telling is that the names of the characters is very important. Its better if the names don't even start with the same letter. In a story like the Horus Heresy, the name Horus is the most important. You would not want to have 5 guys named Horus, for no good reason because it would only cause confusion and distract from the more important parts of the story. In this case lil Horus is not some sergeant or grunt, but one of the Mournival. He is a "Dramatis Personae". I don't feel that "How about to give some depth to a Legion, and highlight the fact that the implantation of geneseed can change the implantee's appearance?" is a good enough reason. That could be done with any "Son of Horus" like Abaddon. If you are going to be named Hours, in the Horus Heresy then you damm well better do something like lower the shields at the Climax of the story. Other wise your name should be Bob. Maybe they put "" around "Horus" like they did with the "Emperor". Maybe the Traitors think of lil Horus when they think of the HH... The is only one person who knows the Vengeful Spirit so well that he would be able to lower the shields giving Him a chance to get on board.......I AM LOKEN!!!!! Now it might shock some but i don't think Loken has anything to do with this. For a time i did. He did say he was there when Horus killed the Emperor but.... Lil Horus would have plenty of knowledge about the Vengeful Spirits lay out. Loken is on Titan (in the WARP) at this point IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2719676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Minor point, but when he says he killed the Emperor, he's referring to the false(or is he real, while the guy on the Golden Throne on Terra is false? Wheels within wheels) emperor that Horus killed in the first part of Horus Rising. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2719685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Minor point, but when he says he killed the Emperor, he's referring to the false(or is he real? Wheels within wheels) emperor that Horus killed in the first part of Horus Rising. yes he is, yes that emperor was false, and it was supposed to be delicious irony. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2719735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Not that this will come as a big surprise but i totally disagree. Looking at these book with a supper suspicious eye is exactly what is needed. What ive learned about story telling is that the names of the characters is very important. Its better if the names don't even start with the same letter. In a story like the Horus Heresy, the name Horus is the most important. You would not want to have 5 guys named Horus, for no good reason because it would only cause confusion and distract from the more important parts of the story. In this case lil Horus is not some sergeant or grunt, but one of the Mournival. He is a "Dramatis Personae". I don't feel that "How about to give some depth to a Legion, and highlight the fact that the implantation of geneseed can change the implantee's appearance?" is a good enough reason. That could be done with any "Son of Horus" like Abaddon. If you are going to be named Hours, in the Horus Heresy then you damm well better do something like lower the shields at the Climax of the story. Other wise your name should be Bob. Maybe they put "" around "Horus" like they did with the "Emperor". Maybe the Traitors think of lil Horus when they think of the HH... Don't get me wrong, I want to see Little Horus do something, I just don't want it to be that. It's much more awesome as a desperate gambit by Horus. Even so, it'd be nice to have something the writers didn't change about the Heresy. Changing and adding some things make it refreshing, changing everything just makes it look like you're trying too hard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2719745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 That's not just in a historical context though. That's how it is in the "happening now" context of Horus Heresy Visions. I disagree. I feel that what we took for the truth before was just the Winner getting to write the history. The Horus Heresy books coming out now are the first hand accounts of those who lived through it. The difference is what happens to history as time draws on. 10,000 years can change alot. It's presented in EXACTLY the same way as the Horus Heresy novels. It is a *happening NOW* first-hand account story. There's no more room in the way it was presented for it to be a 10,000 year old "rewritten by the victors" history than there is in Horus Rising. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2722116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 All stories point to Horus learning that the Space Wolves, Dark angels and Ultramarines were mere hours away, and Horus recognizing that he had no chance of winning unless he took the fight to The Emperor himself. This is exactly right. Horus knew time was running out and had to force the endgame faster. Lowering the shields was designed to bait the Emperor onto the Vengeful Spirit, which it did. The only problem being that even the ruinous powers didn't realize how powerful the Emperor really was because when the gloves finally came off, the Emperor wiped Horus in the blink of an eye. There is no conspiracy or final act of regret by Horus Aximand and no spec ops mission by the Alpha Legion on board. The fluff isn't written from the point of view of the loyalists, it's told to us by GW as how it really went down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2722282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 no spec ops mission by the Alpha Legion on board Now that is something you cannot say with any level of certainity. No matter what any existing or forthcoming fluff might say about it, you just cannot really say. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2722322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 no spec ops mission by the Alpha Legion on board Now that is something you cannot say with any level of certainity. No matter what any existing or forthcoming fluff might say about it, you just cannot really say. Well considering the fluff tells us that Horus ordered the shields lowered for the previous mentioned reasons I think the Alpha Legion would be rendered largely redundant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2722371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 But the point is that we cannot trust fluff, or even the CEO of Games Workshop saying something concrete about something when Alpha Legion may or may not be involved. It might be misinformation, ruse, a combination of both or it might be the truth. But at the end of the day we really, really cannot say anything about anything in the 40K universe, no matter the source. All because of Alpha Legion being a bunch of sneaky gits. It gives us carte blanhce to rewrite any fluff and handwave the old official line away as Alpha Legion misinformation :) *is hit by a thrown shoe* Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226967-horus-and-the-shields/#findComment-2722425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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