Hugebill Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 I've seen a lot of people making lists of deathwing in which they give the apothecary and the banner guy a storm shield with tunder hammer. I really don't see the point of that. My squad constituted of 3 termies with th/ss and 2 lightning claws, the claws being on the banner and the apothecary (the doctor as I call him :) ). My reason for that approach is that when you suffer some wounds at shooting or in close combat, you can allocate them wherever you want so I get the on the th/ss guys since they can resists the big fire and weapons without having a risk of losing my precious upgrades. I played a bunch of game with that setup and it served me pretty flawlessly. If you get th/ss on the banner or the doctor for example, and you get shot by plasma, lascannon or melta...you are boned, you gotta take a risk that I think is unecessary. I hope you guys get my point, and I would like some explanations why would you do the opposite of what I do. (I don't pretend in any way I'm invneting stuff, but I always seee lists made the other way) Also, maybe it can change something fir the reflexion, but normally that squad includes also belial with th/ss (for tanking with his 3 wounds) and the interrogator chaplain if I get the points. AND a landraider if I can also, yes, it is a deathstar (around 750 pts for the squad and transport). Keep in mind I started Deathwing not so long ago and I played around 12-15 games. ( not only solo tho) Opinion please, I'm really curious about that stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cylu Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 I'm similar although my weapon choices were determined by modelling, rather than game design. My command squad is: Standard - TH + SS Apothecary - LCs. Sgt - LCs, CML - TH+SS TH+SS I only run Belial with LCs, so that's a 50/50 mix between the two weapons. Each model is still unique, so I can allocate away from any special models without too much difficulty. That's one thing my setup has over yours. Considering that you have to roll identical models together, let's say you allocate 4 wounds on two TH+SS. If you fail 2 of those 4 saves, then that's two TH+SS gone. Whereas if they're unique, there's a chance that one of the two TH+SS will fail the 2 saves, while the other makes the 2 saves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2718882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayJ Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Since the FAQ, I have been running my command squad fully outfitted with TH/SS. This gives me 4 different wound groups and ensures that each of the special models is well protected. Basically it looks like this: Apothecary, TH/SS Standard Bearer, TH/SS Cyclone, TH/SS 2x TH/SS You can optimize wound allocation by swapping one of the normal TH/SS models with Lightning Claws or any other configuration (Power Weapon if it's the sergeant, or Powerfist/Chainfist) The entire purpose of giving the Standard Bearer, Apothecary, and Cyclone guy Storm Shields is to increase their durability from plasma wounds and power weapons. You'd rather not have to assign those wounds to these models, but when you do have to, you want them to be as survivable as possible. I can tell you that in practice the difference between two normal TH/SS models and having on each with TH/SS and Lightning Claws isn't much. Some games one will benefit you more. In other games, the other can benefit you more. Regardless, I feel that with the new changes, if you are running a full command squad, you need at least 4 TH/SS models, and 3 of those should be your special guys. If you have less storm shields in your command squad, I really feel you are hurting yourself. Normal Deathwing squads are okay with 2 or 3 TH/SS models, but also work very well with a full squad of them. Belial still gets a ton of boost with Lightning Claws and the standard, but it is now worth running him with the TH/SS. It allows him to take on monstrous creatures and not have to worry too much in most cases, especially against MCs with low numbers of attacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2718899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugebill Posted April 11, 2011 Author Share Posted April 11, 2011 Yeah, full th/ss might me good too, but i give claws to the banner and narthecium guy to have some attack that are not at ini 1 all the time, just to be sure I do have so garanteed damage. (and with the chaplain, reroll to hit and reroll to wounds is a real charm) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2719721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanSturrock Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 I think Belial makes for a better source of attacks-not-at-initiative-1, if you want those (I do, usually), just because I5 is significantly better than I4, and because WS5 also makes a big difference. On the charge, LC/LC Belial in a banner squad gets 6 LC attacks, of which 4 should hit on average (assuming you face WS4 opponents); that's twice as many hits as a regular LC/LC termie in the same squad (4 attacks, of which 2 hit). So, he's inherently a little better than a pair of LC/LC termies. Given that, and the need to keep troops alive rather than HQs in most games, I'd rather have 5 TH/SS termies in his squad, and just use him for the claws. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2719862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 If you get th/ss on the banner or the doctor for example, and you get shot by plasma, lascannon or melta...you are boned, you gotta take a risk that I think is unecessary. I don't see your point here. The fact that your apo and banner have this status make them 2 different models with different wargear gamewise. Hence you have to allocate the hits between the 3 groups of wargear The 3 termis with TH/SS The termi with TH/SS and banner The termi with TH/SS and apo wargear Giving them LC change nothing to the wound allocation when you suffer a plasma shots :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2720053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Master Avoghai, I think the OP is talking about a situation when you have this setup: 3 Terminators with LCs 1 Apothecary with TH/SS 1 Banner Bearer with TH/SS In this situation, the OP is correct that you are unnecessarily risking the most valuable members of the squad by making them the "plasma eaters". Putting a storm shield on the special members of the squad is a very good idea, but only when there are other storm shields that can perform the first few rounds of plasma eating duty. Now, personally, I think the Apothecary should be armed with storm bolter and powerfist, since he doesn't have enough hands for a thunder hammer, storm shield, and narthecium. But I'm a fluff nazi. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2720077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Welle indeed this set up is stupid tacticalwise... But that's'why I've never seen list with such squads... :-p Since th OP talks about "current set up he sees appearing in many lists" - tend to think that he compares his 3TH/SS - 2 LC squadwith a full TH/SS squad :?: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2720118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Now, personally, I think the Apothecary should be armed with storm bolter and powerfist, since he doesn't have enough hands for a thunder hammer, storm shield, and narthecium. But I'm a fluff nazi. Pfft. I just put together an Apoth conversion that includes a "medical" servo skull. The apoth's little buddy can assist him in pumping up marines with stim packs and extracting gene-seeds. I even modeled a little outlet of sorts into the top of the armor for the skull to plug in; to sync with the apoth, refill fluids and such. The skull does have a little claw - I made a cross between the two servo skulls from the devastator kit - though it lacks the drill/saw combo. I may add the drill to one of the dangling cords (or I just chalk it up to nano weapons and say he has a tiny plasma cutter). The narthecium point comes out of the eye socket - or at least it looks like something along those lines. On topic - I run my command squad with all TH/SS and Belial with claws. For other terminator units, I toss in one or two TH/SS NOT on the CML though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2720198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Pfft. I just put together an Apoth conversion that includes a "medical" servo skull. Heretic. I dub thee Fallen! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2720209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Pfft. I just put together an Apoth conversion that includes a "medical" servo skull. Heretic. I dub thee Fallen! Ah crap... I probably shouldn't tell you his name is "Little Astelan". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2720254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirage20059 Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Get a watcher in the Dark squire and make him hold the storm shield for the Apothecary :). You, defend me I am to busy! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2720525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Get a watcher in the Dark squire and make him hold the storm shield for the Apothecary :). You, defend me I am to busy! Another fine idea... though you might as well give them the nathecium/reductor. I mean if we can trust them to watch over our liege within the Rock than we can trust them to harvest geneseed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2720611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugebill Posted April 11, 2011 Author Share Posted April 11, 2011 FerociousBeast was right about what I think of the squad. Now I must specify, my choice is oriented that way because I do not currently face armys that spam the plasma too much. (that will be the case until they want to get revenge ) So it is not required for me to put th/ss on all the squad. (Most of the time I dont have to save more than 2 or 3 invul saves at once) On the Belial question, It might just be me, but as is, he is not exactly a killing machine... his only purpose is to unlock the deathwing troop slot and get the uped squad. Sure he got I5 that would be good, but I rather use him to tank because with claws, str 4 is not THAT destructive, 5 TH attacks at str8 are still better imho. I get the shield on belial because I use 2 (sometimes only 1) of his 3 wounds to tanks the plasma and lascanon to keep all 7 models in my squad, then if he's down to one wound, I'll start eating on the 3 th/ss. I also do the same mix with the rest of my DW squad, 3 th/ss with 2 claws or 2 th/ss with 3 claws. (In all case I get the cyclone missile launcher on the claws for the same reason than the banner and apothecary. (But I guess that might be another topic another day..) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2720672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 On the Belial question, It might just be me, but as is, he is not exactly a killing machine... his only purpose is to unlock the deathwing troop slot and get the uped squad. Sure he got I5 that would be good, but I rather use him to tank because with claws, str 4 is not THAT destructive, 5 TH attacks at str8 are still better imho. In your case (not having all TH/SS), I think I can agree. But in the case where you already have 4 guys hitting double str at I1, I'd just as well toss the claws on Belial and get some softening hits out first. As you eluded too, Belial is probably more expandable than the rest of his squad anyway. Take some wounds on him and honestly, even if he dies, you still have a rock hard squad behind him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2720874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanSturrock Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Belial isn't an Eternal Warrior, so you can't put a single Lascannon wound on him without him getting instant-killed. Pretty much the only stuff you can use his storm shield to defend against is plasma weaponry (but not meltas or lascannons or railguns) and power weapons / lightning claws (but not thunder hammers or power klaws or Dreadnought close combat weapons or power fists). Personally I tend to find that people shoot more of the bracketed stuff at Belial's squad than the stuff that I would risk wounding him with, so I allocate the first bolter fire to him (at least till he's taken 2 wounds) and keep him with claws. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2720895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I use a similar set up to the OP, TH/SS banner TH/SS LC/LC LC/LC PW/SB Apoth. Belial w/- MCPW/SB Two SS seems to be enough for low AP weapons, I get more grief from mass fire <_< as normal, I love rolling ones. Logically I should probably move the banner to a LC/LC guy, we'll see. I have been playing a good BA player a bit lately and have been getting Sword of Silence/SB (I like the model) Belial instagibbed by a Deepstriking/Land Raider riding/Furious charging/Terminator Armoured Epistolary with SS for 2+/3++ protection and I5, Str 10(?) rerollable hits and wounds, cc attacks (due to two powers). He is usually accompanied by some scoring assault marines and a priest to boot. Belial with LC/LC will die just as easily as PW/SB, and will just as likely not kill the Libby in one round of combat. 6 atks, 3hits, 2ish wounds, only one not saved etc. I agree he is still fairly expendable (less so in KP games, which are a third of them) but with a TH/SS he might survive and instagibb the libby at I1. If he achieves that he can move on the the squad and then other units.. I have just converted a model to be Belial with Sword of silence(counts as TH) and storm shield, I hope he does better... Stobz Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2720982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugebill Posted April 12, 2011 Author Share Posted April 12, 2011 I forgot the overkill thingy while posting on this but yes, in the context of a game I don't allocate lascannon or melta on him. (Now I sound even more pointless) Thanks btw for the explanations and the different point of views, they proved once again that different things can be good an their is not only one good list! (such a conclusion would've been fairly depressing since I was a necron player before switching to a deathwing army... ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2720995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
krewl Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Now, personally, I think the Apothecary should be armed with storm bolter and powerfist, since he doesn't have enough hands for a thunder hammer, storm shield, and narthecium. But I'm a fluff nazi. My conversion is based on a chainfist natheticum arm with bits patched on, and I modelled the hand on the fist to hold the hammer, with a righthanded shield from the Space hulk box on his other arm. My command squad is also full TH & SS layout but I prefer to keep the cyclone on the apothecary as those are the models I would least want to miss. Now I have 3 guys eating hits first, then the banner, then the apothecary (If saves allow me that order offcourse.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226994-wargear-question-the-uped-dw-squad/#findComment-2722665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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