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How Blood Lance works?


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Don't know if this is proper forum or the Blood Angel one is? Please move to BA if that's the proper place. I searched the forum, but wasn't able to find a topic that discussed this already.

 

Blood Lance

Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarian's base in any direction

 

Is this like the Space Wolves Jaws of the World Wolf that requires line of sight to the first target affected? I don't play SW, so don't have their codex. I know the power is different in that the JotWW affects models the line pass through the model base whereas the Blood Lance affects unit the line pass through. Don't know if that make much of a difference.

 

Some silly thing questions. Librarian join a unit that shoot at an enemy unit in front, then can the Librarian send the Blood Lance out the back, affecting a different enemy unit (this 2nd unit is in LoS). IE he's "shooting" at the unit in front, just happens he misfired and send it the wrong direction.

 

An enemy unit is mostly out of sight (say behind a wall) except for one unlucky guy the Librarian can see. Legal for him to send the Blood Lance through the wall where most of the guys are out of sight and then get to the rest of the enemy behind that wall)? If he send it at the visible model, there's nothing behind it.

 

A big Valkyrie is LOS of the librarian. However, there's wall between the 2 and there are enemy unit out of sight behind that wall. Can the Librarian still send the Blood Lance at the Valkyrie even though the 1st unit affected will be the out of sight enemy unit?

 

If this had been asked and answered in the JotWW, can you recap for me? I tried reading thru those discussions and got completely lost. I don't remember the above scenario being discussed. Then again, I admits my head were spinning reading those discussion.

 

In a nutshell, is Blood Lance played by ignoring the "in any direction" wording and pretend it's a flamer template laid on the side (eg a line) and play Blood Lance as one would a flamer template?

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Blood Lance
Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarian's base in any direction

 

Is this like the Space Wolves Jaws of the World Wolf that requires line of sight to the first target affected? I don't play SW, so don't have their codex. I know the power is different in that the JotWW affects models the line pass through the model base whereas the Blood Lance affects unit the line pass through. Don't know if that make much of a difference.

 

It is a psychic shooting attack, so it follows the shooting rules. You need LOS to the first target.

 

Some silly thing questions. Librarian join a unit that shoot at an enemy unit in front, then can the Librarian send the Blood Lance out the back, affecting a different enemy unit (this 2nd unit is in LoS). IE he's "shooting" at the unit in front, just happens he misfired and send it the wrong direction.

No. If he is attached to a unit, he must target the same enemy the unit targets.

 

An enemy unit is mostly out of sight (say behind a wall) except for one unlucky guy the Librarian can see. Legal for him to send the Blood Lance through the wall where most of the guys are out of sight and then get to the rest of the enemy behind that wall)? If he send it at the visible model, there's nothing behind it.

Must have LOS, so can only hit the 1 guy.

A big Valkyrie is LOS of the librarian. However, there's wall between the 2 and there are enemy unit out of sight behind that wall. Can the Librarian still send the Blood Lance at the Valkyrie even though the 1st unit affected will be the out of sight enemy unit?

 

Pretty sure you must has LOS to the first target, so this would be illegal.

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Blood Lance
Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarian's base in any direction

 

Is this like the Space Wolves Jaws of the World Wolf that requires line of sight to the first target affected? I don't play SW, so don't have their codex. I know the power is different in that the JotWW affects models the line pass through the model base whereas the Blood Lance affects unit the line pass through. Don't know if that make much of a difference.

 

It is a psychic shooting attack, so it follows the shooting rules. You need LOS to the first target.

 

Some silly thing questions. Librarian join a unit that shoot at an enemy unit in front, then can the Librarian send the Blood Lance out the back, affecting a different enemy unit (this 2nd unit is in LoS). IE he's "shooting" at the unit in front, just happens he misfired and send it the wrong direction.

No. If he is attached to a unit, he must target the same enemy the unit targets.

 

An enemy unit is mostly out of sight (say behind a wall) except for one unlucky guy the Librarian can see. Legal for him to send the Blood Lance through the wall where most of the guys are out of sight and then get to the rest of the enemy behind that wall)? If he send it at the visible model, there's nothing behind it.

Must have LOS, so can only hit the 1 guy.

A big Valkyrie is LOS of the librarian. However, there's wall between the 2 and there are enemy unit out of sight behind that wall. Can the Librarian still send the Blood Lance at the Valkyrie even though the 1st unit affected will be the out of sight enemy unit?

 

Pretty sure you must has LOS to the first target, so this would be illegal.

 

You don't target anything. The power says make a line, any enemy unit the line passes through take a hit. I would say you don't need line of sight. As far a hitting a diffrent unit, this power dosn't target anything so I would say you could fire it in any diffection.

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You don't target anything. The power says make a line, any enemy unit the line passes through take a hit. I would say you don't need line of sight. As far a hitting a diffrent unit, this power dosn't target anything so I would say you could fire it in any diffection.

Jaws of the World Wolf has the same wording, and has been clarified to require LOS to the first target. I think thats a pretty solid guideline for bloodlance needing it too.

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You don't target anything. The power says make a line, any enemy unit the line passes through take a hit. I would say you don't need line of sight. As far a hitting a diffrent unit, this power dosn't target anything so I would say you could fire it in any diffection.

It is a psychic shooting attack. Thus it is a shooting attack. All shooting attacks require a target and LOS to said target unless stated otherwise (such as tau smart missiles do not need LOS).

 

 

Note incidental hits are more than aceptable, if there are enemies between you and the target, or behind the target they will be hit, and due to the nature of the weapon you do not need LOS to hit something (your example with the valkerie is legal), but you do need LOS to something (the target) to fire the power in the first place.

 

So other than the fact that the target does not need to be the first one in line, James was correct

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  • 9 months later...

"Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Srength 8 AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type."

 

Does this mean anything hit does not get a cover save?

 

BA: FAQ

 

"Q: As Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack, does it

need to roll To Hit? (p63)

 

A: No."

 

it hits automatically and the enemy "suffers" so no cover save by my logic.

 

I was wondering about hitting tanks in a row with this.

 

Thanks

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I would not take one if someone was using Nurgle's Rot, and you wouldnt take a cover save if you "suffered" a hit in an exploding rihno. hmmm I need convincing.

Its very simple- it has a strength value, things can get in the way out of it, and it doesnt say it ignores cover saves anywhere in the text. Thus, because there is no exception to the rules to be found, we follow the rules and grant it a cover save.

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An enemy unit is mostly out of sight (say behind a wall) except for one unlucky guy the Librarian can see. Legal for him to send the Blood Lance through the wall where most of the guys are out of sight and then get to the rest of the enemy behind that wall)? If he send it at the visible model, there's nothing behind it.

Must have LOS, so can only hit the 1 guy.

 

Must have LoS to at least one model to fire. Nothing says the line has to be drawn through that model though. It just has to touch some model in the squad. The line is never required to touch any particular model.

 

The whole squad is vulnerable however. (This is true of *any* shooting - models you can't see are still vulnerable - so if your bolters open up on the one guy they can see they can inflict more than one casualty from the squad. see BRB p21-23)

 

---------

Edit: Honestly, I'm not sure about checking LoS for the following FAQ entry:

 

Q: Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack that can hit multiple units. If the librarian wishes to assault after using Blood Lance, which unit(s) is he permitted to assault?

A: Only the first unit hit by blood lance.

 

Note what the FAQ *does not* say. You don't have to assault 'your target', or 'the unit you checked LoS to'. You have to assault the 'first unit hit'. Which suggests it does not fire like other weapons, does not take a target, and simply draws a line in any direction you like.

 

Remember this is a FAQ, not an errata. Its not saying it overrules the assault rules that you must assault the unit you targeted in shooting - because it gives a totally different resolution to the issue, its necessarily claiming there is no conflict with the existing rules for assaults. Otherwise it would need to be an errata that would need to define the first squad hit as the librarian's target.

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Look at a very similar power, Jaws of the World Wolf.

BRB FAQ

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?

Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,

impassable terrain)? (p37)

A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf

requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of

sight to the first model that the power affects – in

effect he is treated as the target model; the power just

happens to hit everybody else on its way through!

So most of your ideas Squirrel are wrong or just plain weird.

The rather sad idea that it makes the slightest bit of difference if it's a FAQ or an errata in this forum....really.

All rules from GW are 'soft', just read the dreck that is in the 'most important rule'...the rules are not important.

Well be damned to them, grrr GW.... we debate the rules! they are important to us!

So plaese don't try to use the 'FAQ's are soft rules" BS here.

The FAQ's have as much standing as erratas in this forum.

There's more than enough backing to declare.

 

The first model IS the target.

The unit in which that target model is in is the only unit you could assault.

That said where the line goes after the first model , well anywhere it damn well pleases, in LOS or not.

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Imagine that the librarian on the left, if shooting his blood lance, at the Tank on the right.

The Wall down the middle, blocks LOS to the unit behind it, but not the tank.

Libby aims Blood Lance at tank, checks LOS, and its a go. TARGET = Tank.

The Blood Lance passes over the unit between the tank, and the libby. FIRST UNIT HIT = Unit.

Both units would be hit by the Lance. (IMO Cover saves apply)

As for assaults, the Libby would only be able to assault the unit, not the tank (per the FAQ) even though it was not the target of its shooting attack.

I'm pretty sure that's how this works.

gallery_50727_6943_2269.jpg

As for the unit being hit if only one model is in LOS, the whole unit takes wounds, not just the model in sight. This power is different from JOTWW as it effects the unit, not the model as with JOTWW.

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Look at a very similar power, Jaws of the World Wolf.

BRB FAQ

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?

Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,

impassable terrain)? (p37)

A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf

requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of

sight to the first model that the power affects – in

effect he is treated as the target model; the power just

happens to hit everybody else on its way through!

So most of your ideas Squirrel are wrong or just plain weird.

The rather sad idea that it makes the slightest bit of difference if it's a FAQ or an errata in this forum....really.

All rules from GW are 'soft', just read the dreck that is in the 'most important rule'...the rules are not important.

Well be damned to them, grrr GW.... we debate the rules! they are important to us!

So plaese don't try to use the 'FAQ's are soft rules" BS here.

The FAQ's have as much standing as erratas in this forum.

There's more than enough backing to declare.

 

The first model IS the target.

The unit in which that target model is in is the only unit you could assault.

That said where the line goes after the first model , well anywhere it damn well pleases, in LOS or not.

 

If that FAQ applied to Blood Lance it would have been made for Blood Lance. It wasn't. No such FAQ is in evidence in the BA Codex. It applies to exactly what it says it applies to: JotWW and nothing else. Its not like it would have been so hard to copy and paste that into the BA Codex FAQ and Errata, and replace JotWW with Blood Lance if they had intended it to apply to both. Similar does not mean identical, as the person above me pointed out there are very notable differences between JotWW and Blood Lance (affect model vs. unit). There's no reason to believe a FAQ for one applies to the other.

 

Further, my point was that there's no hint that the particular FAQ answer I cite is supposed to override normal assault restrictions. That it wasn't clear which unit the Librarian could or could not assault means that he *didn't have a target* during shooting in the first place, so there's no one to check line of sight to. If he did have a target, it would be obvious who he could assault.

 

Whereas, if it was an errata, it might legitimately be seen as overriding normal assault rules. As a FAQ clarification it is an addendum to the regular assault rules, and doesn't override any of them. FAQ vs. errata helps establish the context of the ruling.

 

----------------------

Edit:

I remain unconvinced Blood Lance requires checking LoS.

-The librarian pretty clearly does not take a target. He must assault the first unit touched, but this unit is never said to be his target. Indeed, if he did need to declare a target it may well not be the first unit touched!

-Without a target it is unclear what you're supposed to measure LoS to.

 

---------------------

I'm also not sure what happens when the librarian is attached to a squad. Lets assume a librarian is attached to a squad of regular terminators. Squad declares its firing at Squad A 5" away, Librarian is firing Blood Lance. Even assuming the librarian must direct his Blood Lance towards Squad A (unclear, if it doesn't take a target then he could theoretically point it any way he wanted regardless of the squad's target), if Squad B is between the librarian and Squad A it will touch Squad B first. Now the librarian is compelled to assault Squad B but the Terminators are compelled to assault Squad A.

 

I don't even know how that works in the assault phase, even assuming the required multiple assault is possible, since to start the assault you'd have to move either the librarian into the closest model from B (which breaks the rules for assault for the terminators, since it starts an assault with B ), or move the closest Terminator into A (which breaks the rules for assault for the Librarian). I would have to conclude the unit could not assault at all, since any assault would break the rules.

 

In a lot of ways it would be less onerous if the FAQ simply said "The librarian using Blood Lance must declare a target and orient the line so that it would touch at least one model in that squad if it were to reach that far. (The line is still placed regardless of whether it can reach the target squad or not with all subsequent consequences for touched units)."

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Aye, it does help us establish context- FAQs are ways of showing how something plays in a real game, eratta are changes to the rules themselves. We can see through the example of Jaws what a *mathematical term* line is on the tabletop and how one uses a shooting attack with it as the 'template'.

 

The two attacks and vibrocannons are the only thing in the game that work this way- and theres no reason for us to think they dont all have the same functionality.

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Aye, it does help us establish context- FAQs are ways of showing how something plays in a real game, eratta are changes to the rules themselves. We can see through the example of Jaws what a *mathematical term* line is on the tabletop and how one uses a shooting attack with it as the 'template'.

 

The two attacks and vibrocannons are the only thing in the game that work this way- and theres no reason for us to think they dont all have the same functionality.

 

Don't vibrocannons declare targets as normal? Ie, work differently than JotWW since their 'target' is not the first touched squad but the declared target?

 

Vibrocannons also apply hits to *units*, not *models*

 

Edit: Vibrocannons also roll to hit.

 

Basically, afaict, there are at least three different line weapons, each with totally distinct mechanics for how they are used.

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suf•fer (s f r)

v. suf•fered, suf•fer•ing, suf•fers

v.intr.

1. To feel pain or distress; sustain loss, injury, harm, or punishment.

2. To tolerate or endure evil, injury, pain, or death. See Synonyms at bear1.

3. To appear at a disadvantage: "He suffers by comparison with his greater contemporary" (Albert C. Baugh).

v.tr.

1. To undergo or sustain (something painful, injurious, or unpleasant): "Ordinary men have always had to suffer the history their leaders were making" (Herbert J. Muller).

2. To experience; undergo: suffer a change in staff.

3. To endure or bear; stand: would not suffer fools.

4. To permit; allow: "They were not suffered to aspire to so exalted a position as that of streetcar conductor" (Edmund S. Morgan).

 

"Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8 AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type." C:BA pg 63

 

1.) I would argue the term “suffer” means the unit is effected by the hit.

 

2.) if a target was able to cover save an attack it never “suffered” the effect in the first place.

 

3.) is there any where in the BRB or 40k terminology that is it written a unit “suffers” something is capable of claiming a cover save?

 

“Extend a straight line, 4D6” long, from the librarian’s base in any direction- this is the path taken by the blood lance” C:BA pg 63

 

There is no target selection here, you simple extend a line from the base and do as the rule states.

 

Also like tau smart missiles the Blood lance has been established that it has some sort of intelligence or guidance, otherwise it would be a normal psychic shooting attack without this statement in the rule:

 

“Friendly units, and enemy units locked in close combat, are unaffected- the lance darts over them before continuing on its course” C:BA pg 63

 

I might add this is not fluff and clearly establishes an intelligence and guidance during the course Blood lance is fired.

If blood lance dips back down to hit another unit behind a friendly transport and Hits them automatically (established by BA: FAQ) and the target “suffers” said hit without the blood lance psycher even being able to see the enemy unit, how can we then say it is a normal psychic shooting attack even with objects in the way that Blood lance ignores?

 

I would especially like question #3 answered.

 

Thanks for the patience guys.

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"Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8 AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type." C:BA pg 63

 

1.) I would argue the term “suffer” means the unit is effected by the hit.

 

2.) if a target was able to cover save an attack it never “suffered” the effect in the first place.

 

3.) is there any where in the BRB or 40k terminology that is it written a unit “suffers” something is capable of claiming a cover save?

 

I don't know about you but in our games we generally need to hit something before it is allowed a cover save. Whether they take a hit, suffer a hit, are hit, have a hit inflicted on them or any other way you care to phrase it they still have to be hit before a cover save is allowed.

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Hatefires... When you perform normal shooting attacks, the order of operations is this:

 

1. Check LoS and Declare Target

2. Check Range

3. Roll to Hit or Scatter

4. Roll to Wound

5. Take Saves

 

At step 4, when you roll to-wound, the unit is said to have "suffered" those wounds.

 

And then it takes saves against those wounds, which can include cover saves.

 

Blood Lance, as a Psychic Shooting Attack, is no different in that regard.

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Hatefires... When you perform normal shooting attacks, the order of operations is this:

 

1. Check LoS and Declare Target

2. Check Range

3. Roll to Hit or Scatter

4. Roll to Wound

5. Take Saves

 

At step 4, when you roll to-wound, the unit is said to have "suffered" those wounds.

 

And then it takes saves against those wounds, which can include cover saves.

 

Blood Lance, as a Psychic Shooting Attack, is no different.

 

I agree on suffering.

 

But Blood Lance does not declare a target, so there's nothing to check LoS or range to. And it does not roll to hit. It has a unique procedure for determining hits, and then proceeds to step 4.

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I don't know about you but in our games we generally need to hit something before it is allowed a cover save. Whether they take a hit, suffer a hit, are hit, have a hit inflicted on them or any other way you care to phrase it they still have to be hit before a cover save is allowed.

 

 

Hatefires... When you perform normal shooting attacks, the order of operations is this:

 

1. Check LoS and Declare Target

2. Check Range

3. Roll to Hit or Scatter

4. Roll to Wound

5. Take Saves

 

At step 4, when you roll to-wound, the unit is said to have "suffered" those wounds.

 

And then it takes saves against those wounds, which can include cover saves.

 

Blood Lance, as a Psychic Shooting Attack, is no different.

 

1.) Can I see the first target=Yes

a. “extend a straight line 4D6” long in any direction-this is the path taken by blood lance” . C:BA pg 63

 

2.) Range “straight line 4D6”

3.) "Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8 AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type." C:BA pg 63

 

Q: As Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack, does it

need to roll To Hit? (p63)

A: No.

 

BA:FAQ

 

4.) roll to wound “Strength 8 AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type”

 

5.) BRB Pg 21:

 

“COVER SAVES

A position in cover shields troops against flying debris and enemy shots, enabling them to get their heads down or crawl amongst the rocks and (hopefully) avoid harm. Because of this units in or behind cover receive a cover saving throw…”

 

“What counts as cover?

Cover is basically anything that is hiding a target or protecting it from incoming shots…”

 

Therefore the cover receives the hit before the unit is hit, allowing the unit to ignore the hit.

 

Blood lance automatically hits, and the unit “suffers” a wound, Thus ignoring cover.

 

As I mentioned before if you “suffered” a Strength 8 AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type all that is left to do is roll to wound.

 

cov•er (k v r)

v. cov•ered, cov•er•ing, cov•ers

v.tr.

1. To place something upon or over, so as to protect or conceal.

2. To overlay or spread with something: cover potatoes with gravy.

3.

a. To put a cover or covering on.

b. To wrap up; clothe.

…financial defenitions, my post are already too long…

7. To hide or screen from view or knowledge; conceal: covered up his misdemeanors.

8.

a. To protect or shield from harm, loss, or danger.

b. To protect by insurance: took out a new policy that will cover all our camera equipment.

c. To compensate or make up for.

9. To be sufficient to defray, meet, or offset the cost or charge of:

….

15. To protect, as from enemy attack, by occupying a strategic position.

take cover

To seek concealment or protection, as from enemy fire.

 

And now I am going to steal from Brother Seahawks post, in the topic titled “Line Attacks, Roll to hit yes or no?”

Dangerous Terrain: "On the roll of a 1, the model suffers a wound..."

 

Gets Hot!: "For each result of a 1 rolled on its to hit rolls, the firing model suffers a wound..."

 

Destroyed - Explodes: "...and models in range suffer a Strength 3, AP - hit."

 

Destroyed - Explodes: "The unit suffers a number of Strength 4, AP - hits equal to the number of models embarked..."

 

The above is four examples in the BRB that demonstrate you don’t roll a cover save when you “Suffer” something!

As I said before give me an example where you Suffer something and you get a cover save.

 

This is a logical 4:0 reasoning from the BRB that you don’t get a cover save.

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Oh dear god...

 

Saves are taken after hits and wounds. Blood Lance automatically hits, then you roll to wound then you take any saves (including cover saves). Page 15 clearly sets out the order of operations and nothing in the word "suffers" changes that.

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I agree on suffering.

 

But Blood Lance does not declare a target, so there's nothing to check LoS or range to. And it does not roll to hit. It has a unique procedure for determining hits, and then proceeds to step 4.

 

Right on point.

 

All argument for cover saves centers around it being a shooting attack, but it does not ROLL TO HIT hence its cover saves being AFTER ROLLING TO HIT makes no sense here, SUFFERING A WOUND is not being hit or succeeding on a to hit roll.

 

I don't have the BRB handy but can someone check the cover save entry; does it mention what it can and must be taken against?

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I agree on suffering.

 

But Blood Lance does not declare a target, so there's nothing to check LoS or range to. And it does not roll to hit. It has a unique procedure for determining hits, and then proceeds to step 4.

 

Right on point.

 

All argument for cover saves centers around it being a shooting attack, but it does not ROLL TO HIT hence its cover saves being AFTER ROLLING TO HIT makes no sense here, SUFFERING A WOUND is not being hit or succeeding on a to hit roll.

 

I don't have the BRB handy but can someone check the cover save entry; does it mention what it can and must be taken against?

Cover saves don't come after being hit. They come after being wounded. Blood Lance rolls to wound. Cover applies as normal.

 

Hatesfire, your list of things that say "suffer a hit" and give no cover, none of those are shooting attacks. Cover is irrelevant to non-shooting attacks. Every weapon that ignores cover says so explicitly (flamer templates as an example)

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I agree on suffering.

 

But Blood Lance does not declare a target, so there's nothing to check LoS or range to. And it does not roll to hit. It has a unique procedure for determining hits, and then proceeds to step 4.

 

Right on point.

 

All argument for cover saves centers around it being a shooting attack, but it does not ROLL TO HIT hence its cover saves being AFTER ROLLING TO HIT makes no sense here, SUFFERING A WOUND is not being hit or succeeding on a to hit roll.

 

I don't have the BRB handy but can someone check the cover save entry; does it mention what it can and must be taken against?

Cover saves don't come after being hit. They come after being wounded. Blood Lance rolls to wound. Cover applies as normal.

 

Hatesfire, your list of things that say "suffer a hit" and give no cover, none of those are shooting attacks. Cover is irrelevant to non-shooting attacks. Every weapon that ignores cover says so explicitly (flamer templates as an example)

 

Cover is directional, with no LOS checking how do you KNOW it's in cover in the first place?

 

Do you roll cover for Gets Hot?

 

Makes zero sense.

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COVER SAVES

A position in cover shields troops against flying debris and enemy shots, enabling them to get their heads down Of crawl amongst the rocks and (hopefully) avoid harm. Because of this, units in or behind cover receive a cover saving throw.

 

What counts as Cover?

Cover is basically anything that is hiding a target or protecting it from incoming shots. For example, a soft obstacle (like a hedge) that would hide soldiers behind it, but would not even slow down enemy shots, confers...

 

When are models in Cover?

When any part of the target model's body (as defined on page 16) is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover.

There you go, Hatefires- the underlined portion. As Blood Lance is a Psychic Shooting Attack and it does not explicitly ignore cover saves the way Template weapons do, units "in or behind cover receive a cover saving throw."

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