An interesting note about Second Founding

[Gree]

Traditonally in the Liber's it's been a no-no to make your chapter one of the Second Founding, since GW already has it pretty well locked down.

 

Well upon re-reading Codex Grey Knights, appearantly things are being retconned so that the Second Founding consisted of 400 chapters.

 

just food for thought after looking over some of the older DIY guides.

[Ferrata]

That is either a major do-dar by GW or a complete retcon to force it inline with the enlarged legions in the HH novels. If you believed the legions to be around the 10,000 man mark, then say a Legion forming 3 chapters (3000 men) makes sense. 70% dead at the end of the HH and Scouring is fine. However, if legions were 100,000 men, 97% dead is quite difficult to believe.

 

Though, if 400 chapters were made at the 2nd Founding, that really pushs the following foundings down in order of size. If the 21st was the largest, then you at looked at around 30 chapters per founding...

[Espada Azul]

400 Chapters for the 2nd Founding? Really? That means that there's either been a MASSIVE die-out of Chapters since that time, or someone hasn't been reading up on their lore.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, we know that the average Legions wasn't 100,000, as the Word Bearers are listed at that size and acknowledged to be the second largest Legion, behind the Ultramarines, and that Legions were above 10,000. Personally, I'll say the average size was 60,000.

 

The thing to remember is that all Loyalist Legions were utterly smashed either during the Heresy, Siege or the Scouring. The Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Salamanders seem to have not been an effective fighting force until after the split into Chapters. The Dark Angels lost half their Legion on Caliban, and more on the way to Terra, with the Wolves experiencing a similar situation with the fight on Prospero and subsequent journey. I find it hard to believe the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and White Scars weren't reduced to at least under half strength each by the Siege. Lastly, we have the Ultramarines, who took the brunt of defending pretty much the entire damned Imperium during the Scouring.

Really, with the scope of conflicts they were involved in, it's amazing we didn't have any Legions destroyed. 97% fatalities, including the Scouring, is actually pretty understandable.

[Dremen]

The other Logical assumption is that there are far more than 1000 Chapters out there. The Administratum is a convoluted entity. Data does not flow logicall or quickly within it. The High Lords of Terra may have a better idea about the number of Chapters but even they, in thier divine "wisdom", would only have a best guess at the number of active Marines out there. Its within the realm of possibility that there are 2-3 perhaps even 4000 Chapters out there. Then you have Chapters who are so spread out that thier size <cough Templar cough> is impossible to know for sure.

 

Simple fact is that there is no sure way to tell one way or the other. Even the roster of active chapters may be inccorect; missing new foundings and losses. The Adeptus Astartes are the Galaxy's best martial force and one of the few hopes the Imperium of man has against the taint of Chaos. It is almost comforting to think that there are more than a mere one million of these soldiers. Soldiers who form a bulwark against the evils that asail mortal men.

[NightrawenII]

Lastly, we have the Ultramarines, who took the brunt of defending pretty much the entire damned Imperium during the Scouring.

To be fair, the Scouring lasted "only" 7 years of total war...

 

@Dremen

Doesn't work. The third edition codex gives the aprox. numbers of "known Chapters at present", 969-1021.

[Lysimachus]

Doesn't work. The third edition codex gives the aprox. numbers of "known Chapters at present", 969-1021.

 

True, but given the amount of retconning GW has been doing over recent years regarding Astartes numbers, it's possible that by the next C:SM it will have changed too! In all honesty, I think that would be a shame though. The idea of only one Space Marine for each world of the Imperium is very cool.

 

I think the main change for DIY creators is of course the average age of a Chapter. Given that almost half the total number of Chapters are now 2nd Founding, this lowers the average number of Chapters in each Founding from 40ish (950/24) to 25ish (600/24). Also, when you consider that there are now 400 Chapters around at the start of M.32 to provide geneseed tithes and training cadres for the 3rd Founding instead of just 50, it also makes it a possibility that the early Foundings could be much larger than the later ones (with the noted exception of the 21st being the biggest since the 2nd). That could be quite cool, fitting with the idea of the dwindling, decaying Imperium.

 

Edit: Having said that, I suppose it doesn't have to change the Chapters and Foundings that much, perhaps it just means that lots more Chapters have been lost/destroyed and replaced throughout the course of the Imperium's 10,000 years.

[Aurelius Rex]

I've yet to really sit down and digest the Grey Knight codex, but from the light skim I have given it so far this doesn't sound like the only gratuitous retcon the author has included. It would certainly make the second founders a heck of a lot less 'special' if they make up nearly half of the chapters.

 

Hmmm... 'when is it acceptable to retcon and when isn't it' sounds like a good topic for general discussion, probably in Amicus. I can understand when they had to retcon a lot of stuff in 2nd edition to rationalise a lot of the wild creativity of RT era into something more coherent, but changing something that has been so well established would need to be done for a really good reason to avoid coming off as ham-fisted, and I am not yet convinced that there was the pressing need for it. Perhaps it was inevitable due to the dramatic increase in legion sizes discussed in the HH books, but even that struck me as a pointless and clumsy retcon in itself. :cuss

[exetus]

If you figure that even at the time of the Heresy there were only 1,000,000 Space Marines, then the numbers of 100,000 for each are vastly overpowered. I would say that the largest legions may have been around that number, but a simple look at the numbers would have 20 legions at 50,000 apiece. When II and XI meet their fate and the the Ultras swell, that could easily be them absorbing 60,000-100,000 bodies. 400 chapters would indicate 400,000 loyalists left at the end of the Heresy and I would argue that there was probably a typo that was meant to read 40.

[Iron Lord]

Imperial Armour 9 (which has background for the Raven Guard) gives their size during the Heresy (before the ambush) as 80,000 marines.

[Dremen]

@Dremen

Doesn't work. The third edition codex gives the aprox. numbers of "known Chapters at present", 969-1021.

 

Im going off of the entry on page 8 of the current C:SM"It is not certain how many Chapters were created during the second founding . Many Imperial records were lost during the later Age of Apostasy..."

 

As well as on page 9 " Indeed, it is impossible to say for certain how many Chapters have been created. All that is certain is there are approximatly one thousand Chapters in existance today..."

 

Granted I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right. I'm mearly putting forward that its far from impossible for there to be more Chapters out there than is recorded. It could be as little divergance as 20-30 but it could be much, much larger. Not to get metaphorical, but being young tends to get the best of me in such things, but I view the Thousand Chapter rule kinda like a speed limit. Go a little over and not much is really wrong, to far over and you'll probably get busted.

 

It is, perhaps, a little romanticized to say that there could be millions of more marines; I'll give you that. However, since the flow of information in the Imperium is so restricted its not beyond possible that there are more than the single million we know of. Especially since the High lords are so... "Forthcoming" with information they deem important (or the fact there are more than one thousand Templar). At the very least I agree to disagree, even if we are only off by a small proportion.

[Iron Lord]

If we think of it as "Post-Heresy & second founding, there were less than half as many Marines defending the Imperium as there are now"- it might not seem so far-fetched.

[Leonaides]

But given the importance of marine chapters, and the fact that the Ad Mech retain a genesample of each one, and there is a specific numbered list of chapters, I suggest that the Ad Mech know exactly how many chapters have been created. they may not be telling, and maybe its only one or two very high up (Fabricator general and maybe 2 or 3 others) who actually know, but the knowledge is there.

[Arkangilos]

Those are all good points.

 

Also, remember that the second founding is the largest founding, so it is completely possible that there were quite a few. Just because there were a lot does not mean they are still around. Indeed, many quite possibly died off in the years following.

 

I am not saying I agree though, just staying... Open minded.

[Dosjetka]

I've yet to really sit down and digest the Grey Knight codex, but from the light skim I have given it so far this doesn't sound like the only gratuitous retcon the author has included. It would certainly make the second founders a heck of a lot less 'special' if they make up nearly half of the chapters.

 

Hmmm... 'when is it acceptable to retcon and when isn't it' sounds like a good topic for general discussion, probably in Amicus. I can understand when they had to retcon a lot of stuff in 2nd edition to rationalise a lot of the wild creativity of RT era into something more coherent, but changing something that has been so well established would need to be done for a really good reason to avoid coming off as ham-fisted, and I am not yet convinced that there was the pressing need for it. Perhaps it was inevitable due to the dramatic increase in legion sizes discussed in the HH books, but even that struck me as a pointless and clumsy retcon in itself. :huh:

I completely agree with that. I'm liking this new GK 'dex less and less... I've yet to read through it too... :D

 

Ludovic

[Aegnor]

I've commented before that one thing I don't mind about this suggested revision is that it fixes what is otherwise a glaring flaw in the narrative of a dying, decaying Imperium. In that narrative, it makes little sense to have the numbers of Marines steadily and drastically increasing throughout the history of the Imperium. If there were "only" 60-odd chapters after the HH (9 remaining loyalists plus say 50 new chapters), then it follows that there were only around 60,000 Marines - less than the old Raven Guard Legion pre-Istvaan V, which was itself one of the smaller legions. Fastforward to 40K times, and we have a million Marines - more than 15 times as many. Why then, is the Imperium in such dire straits?

 

It makes a lot more sense to me to say that there were around half a million in the immediate aftermath of the Heresy and that while this number has been improved to roughly a million, it is still way short of what existed during the peak of the Great Crusade.

[SpecialIssue]

This is perhaps why it is sometimes better for the lore to stay shrouded and ambiguous. It suits the grim darkness of the far future to remain vague rather than revealing every single (tarnished) golden nugget...

 

They should have just let this shrouded and mysterious dog lie.

[Aurelius Rex]

Having read the section in question about the 400 chapters in the GK codex, I was left feeling that the whole retcon problem could have been so neatly sidestepped by not putting a number on how many chapters had been created - there were clearly ways that the sentence could have been constructed to allow suitable ambiguity and wiggle room.

 

Of course, a codex author has great power in creating and changing canon, but as blue and red superheroes are keen to remind us, with great power comes great responsibility, specifically not to mess things around on a whim, or through poor research, like omitting a gene-seed implant from the list or saying that Iron Hands have chapter masters in the latest Marine codex. I would say that both cases are continuity errors rather than retcons, though. :)

 

So either a sloppy piece of writing, or the author intentionally wanted to state that he was overturning getting on for two decades of established canon. :D

[Iron Lord]

Of course, a codex author has great power in creating and changing canon, but as blue and red superheroes are keen to remind us, with great power comes great responsibility, specifically not to mess things around on a whim, or through poor research, like omitting a gene-seed implant from the list or saying that Iron Hands have chapter masters in the latest Marine codex. I would say that both cases are continuity errors rather than retcons, though. :D

 

Index Astartes stuff has been ignored before. Index Astartes: Iron Warriors, made them Undivided only (plus Khorne berzerkers)- the 3.5 ed Chaos codex dropped them having access to Khorne Berzerkers, and kept them as Undivided only.

 

(And both of these ignored older fluff saying that they were allied with Slaanesh- in the account of their attack on Tallarn).

 

So- a codex dropping restrictions- and allowing them to be affiliated with any Chaos power- could be said to be better for people who preferred the really old fluff.

 

In the same way, Index Astartes White Scars making them a chapter that never ever uses Dreadnoughts- ignored the fact that in older codicies, White Scar dreadnoughts were seen.

 

So- is it really a bad thing for a codex to drop the restrictions that Index Astartes put on chapters?

[Aurelius Rex]

So- is it really a bad thing for a codex to drop the restrictions that Index Astartes put on chapters?

That's a good question - and goes to the heart of good and bad retconning! :D

 

Personally I would say that if the retcon adds something distinctive and interesting - adds to the character of a chapter, in other words, like the GW IA:White Scars article giving a characterful reason for them not having dreads and devs when they had been seen before is far more acceptable than them later being homogenised to retcon this, such as the proscription being dropped / forgotten in the codex for White Scars, or the distinctiveness of the Iron Hands in their IA (like no chapter masters) being airbrushed out or forgotten.

 

For me it is easier to accept a retcon if it is done for a legitimate narrative reason - making the story better, but I know some of this will be pretty subjective. :)

[Ferrata]

Why then, is the Imperium in such dire straits?

Because the Marines being created are slightly worse. The Imperium is being led by lesser men who don't truly understand the power of Astartes. The technology is not understood and only worshipped, meaning it is weakened. There are countless new enemies that did not exist before the HH; Chaos as a strong power, Tyranids, Necrons, T'au. The Imperium isn't growing it is decaying - it needs more marines.

 

Okay, rant over. Actually, those times after the HH when there was only 50,000 marines (50 chapters) would have been after the HH and the Scouring - Legions were still about then. If you go on the idea that, if anything, the Legions shrunk during this time due to battle losses, then more survived the HH. Ever since, the Imperium has been rebuilding the Astartes number to pre-HH levels, but it doesn't understand the technology so it has taken millenia. If the Raven Guard were the smallest at say 75,000, and the Ultramarines the largest (300,000?), then there was on average just over 3.3 Million Marines prior to the HH. We are at a third of that number now :D

 

As for retconns, I think we could argue all day long about it. Some we like, some we don't like. I think it has a lot to do with when you joined the hobby and what you like about the background. I hate the idea of Space Wolf thunderwolves, others look at the unit and think "Cool". We are all different.

[Aegnor]

I agree with a lot of what you say in response to my question - although I'm pretty dubious as to whether Marines are "worse" - apart from specific geneseeds who have lost some implants, I don't see that's the case. If there's a source that says it is the case I'd be grateful for a steer.

 

That said, I guess my broader point was that, almost regardless of the starting number at the 2nd Founding, it seems incongruous that the Imperium has been able to steadily increase the numbers of marines from the 2nd Founding to now, where it seems there are more marines than at anytime since the HH. If they had so few marines at different times, it seems improbable the Imperium would have survived.

 

I agree that rough number for Marines in the GC seems right and certainly explains why they were able to smash the galaxy into submission.

[Ferrata]

I agree with a lot of what you say in response to my question - although I'm pretty dubious as to whether Marines are "worse" - apart from specific geneseeds who have lost some implants, I don't see that's the case. If there's a source that says it is the case I'd be grateful for a steer.

Not off the top of my head, I would have to look for a quote. It is all based on the idea that since the Primarchs went away, and the understanding of the process to create a marine became ritualised, then it is likely the marines are worse. In older fluff, anyone could be turned into a Marine prior the Heresy, and only since then did it require puberty. I think that was actually a sliding scale from older background (anyone, usually convicts) to the new background of young recruits.

 

Well, you had the Legions post HH and then the Second Founding chapters and the Primarchs that survived helping the cause (Dorn, Khan, Corax, Guilliman, Russ and Vulkan). The knowledge of technology hadn't been completely lost yet and a number of forces hadn't raised their ugly heads. This time of relative peace and stability for the Imperium after the HH would allow for the build up of Astartes, if you looked at the estimated dates for foundings they were pumping these guys out early on. The 21st Founding occured in M36, the 3rd was M32. That puts 20 foundings in 4000 years, one every 250 years! Seeing as Astartes live longer than that, Marines would actually survive to see the next founding. After the 21st, it is on average once every millenia Astartes were created - 3 generations later for Marines. So, there was a massive explosion of chapters in 4000 years. Seeing as it was a 1000 between the 2nd and 3rd, you can guess this urgency to create new marines might coincide with the last of the Primarchs. The Imperium realising that it needed more Marines now that they had lost their greatest leaders (or the Primarchs didn't want chapters created that might not revere them as much).

 

**Edit**

 

Let's make the wrong presumption that all foundings were born equal. You are looking at around 40 chapters per founding (not allowing for battle losses). If 20 of them happened before M36, that means 800 chapters were created before then - with only 200 in the remaining 5000 years. :D

[Kastellan Kong]

But given the importance of marine chapters, and the fact that the Ad Mech retain a genesample of each one, and there is a specific numbered list of chapters, I suggest that the Ad Mech know exactly how many chapters have been created. they may not be telling, and maybe its only one or two very high up (Fabricator general and maybe 2 or 3 others) who actually know, but the knowledge is there.

 

Personally I doubt there is anyone at all that has a clear picture of the state of any part of the Imperium. It's too big and too convoluted, archaic and a true bureaucratic nightmare. It's a mechanism that pretty much runs itself, It does what it does and no one is in control.

 

For me, this just feels more 40k than the small-elite-in-the-know-idea.

 

Also 400 chapters at the 2nd founding? Well a whole lot of them must have died out and been replaced. How many chapters survive ten thousand years of fighting? 60%? 50%? Less or more? I mean there must be a reason for new foundings, and attrition could very well be a major factor in that process.

[Leonaides]

Wasnt there a quote listing number of destroyed/renegade/turned to chaos chapters? Something like 60-odd (63 seems to stick in my mind for some reason).

 

And while I agree that for most of the Imerium, the sheer scale of information means no-one actually knows what's going on, with marines you have a small number of incredibly powerful, incredibly labour/technology intensive units, requiring constant re-supply of certain specific items, and duty-bound to report back at specified intervals (geneseed tithe). Actually keeping track of the number of chapters is probably farily easy, but the knowledge is so valuable, that its dissemination is highly restricted.

 

Given that they have enough records to make sure no two chapters are given the same chapter number, or colours/iconography, then the information must be there.

 

You could argue a chapter might drop off the list after 1000's of years or so, but how would that chapter missing its first tithe not be noticed? If the Ad mech can keep records for 100 years (or whatever the interval is for tithes) - and from evidence of them persuing chapters for not handing over geneseed whatever the period it is they sem to manage to keep their records at least this long - why would they suddenly lose something as important as any record of the marine chapter at the same time that the same marine chapter decided not to send in tis tithe, or request any new suits of power armour, or spare parts and the mechanicus lose the pre-existing genetic stocks already tithed from that chapter.

 

Marines are bright stars in teh firmament of battle, and marine chapters are massive fortifications in the defences of the imperium - The Pesident of America isnt going to lose Fort Bragg because he hasnt seen a status report from them in the last month...