An interesting note about Second Founding

[Ace Debonair]

So, the big question that comes to mind.

 

Is it now 'OK' with the Liber to make DIY second founding Chapters?

 

I personally think it might be worth waiting to see if this new figure for number of Chapters is confirmed/denied at a point later down the line, but I'm wondering what everyone else thinks.

[Pulse]

A D-B said on this very forum that GW had made 100,000 the official figure for the majority of Legions, as far as i can remember.

[Espada Azul]

So, the big question that comes to mind.

 

Is it now 'OK' with the Liber to make DIY second founding Chapters?

 

I personally think it might be worth waiting to see if this new figure for number of Chapters is confirmed/denied at a point later down the line, but I'm wondering what everyone else thinks.

 

I'm kind of leery of using information from a Ward-written Codex myself, (and I'm not even a greybeard in the hobby!) but I think it's free game at this point.

 

Of course if the lore changes again years along the line, one has to prepare for eventualities...

 

"The Chapter just thought they were part of the Second Founding. Sadly, they were mistaken..."

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Traditonally in the Liber's it's been a no-no to make your chapter one of the Second Founding, since GW already has it pretty well locked down.

 

Well upon re-reading Codex Grey Knights, appearantly things are being retconned so that the Second Founding consisted of 400 chapters.

 

just food for thought after looking over some of the older DIY guides.

 

 

Keep in mind the passage that talks about 400 Chapters of the 2nd Founding goes on to say that nearly all of them had been removed from Imperial records within a century. It could be an indication that the casualty rate was rather high. It could be that the Apocrypha of Skaros is listing the 'survivors'.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Lastly, we have the Ultramarines, who took the brunt of defending pretty much the entire damned Imperium during the Scouring.

To be fair, the Scouring lasted "only" 7 years of total war...

 

 

Yes. 7 years of defending almost half the galaxy with 200,000 (at a guess) guys, with still the same number of recruitment worlds. There's no way that could put a serious strain on their numbers, with their recruitment completely over-stretched, and since they didn't resort to Raven Guard style rushing of the process, they obviously kept the same slow, exacting process that they used beforehand and previously. :) As I've said, it's amazing they managed to do what they did without being beaten back to Ultramar.

 

To put it another way, the Ultramar sector managed to keep the Legion at roughly 250,000 guys when they were spread between lets say 10 fleets, all operating in roughly the same area. Now these 200,000 guys are spread across the entire galaxy, engaging in fighting much, much tougher than before, given that they're now fighting renegade Marines and daemons. Their field of operations has increased a dozen times over, with the strength of the opposition increasing, and with what supply lines and friendly worlds they previously had now in tatters. There's no way they could have done all this and not suffered horrific losses, far beyond what the 5 or so planets they recruit from could manage to replace.

The other Legions had functionally ceased to exist by this point. All the others were at most at half strength, with those that fought on Terra far below that. One Legion, of less than half a million men, defended what it took 20 Legions to conquer. Even though the Ultramarines aren't my favourite Legion or Chapter, they deserve major, major props for achieving what they did.

[Vodunius]

Really, with the scope of conflicts they were involved in, it's amazing we didn't have any Legions destroyed. 97% fatalities, including the Scouring, is actually pretty understandable.

 

Quoted For Truth.

 

Queue obligatory quote from the Scouring of Tallarn story from Codex Titanicus - some dismiss it as being RT fluff but it was reprinted in the Titan Legions Codex Titanicus as well and that was during 2nd edition:

 

Hatred drove us. Hatred and fear.

 

Aye, fear. For we were the finest warriors in the universe, elite among elite, the chosen of humanity.

Once we had acknowledged no foe as our equal. Now we must – for were not these men the same as

ourselves? Spawned from geneseed, trained by masters, armed and equipped with the best from

humanity's realm. Finally we faced a for worthy of fear, a mirror image of ourselves and all we

believed in. In this nightmare, brother against false brother to the death. Is it any wonder we knew

fear?

 

We fought like tigers but were met with equal ferocity. We shot accurately. Our eyes were like those

of hawks. Yet equal numbers fell from our ranks. We met at close quarters. Weapons flashed and

gouged but who was to say which was faster? For every Traitor who fell, so fell a loyal brother.

 

The battle surged back and forth till finally in the end true faith prevailed and we had the mastery.

Yet we were slaughtered. But one in ten survived.

 

And that was just about a single city..

 

 

Given that they have enough records to make sure no two chapters are given the same chapter number, or colours/iconography, then the information must be there.

The Mentor Legion IA article stated that the Mentors inherited both the colours and the chapter number of the defunct Star Scorpions chapter - its certainly old fluff but I'm not aware of it having been retconned.

[Leonaides]

yep- inherited. So how did they know that that number used to be the scorpions number? Because they had it on a list. They re-issued the number after the scorpions were killed, not because there was a double-numbering mistake.

[Kastellan Kong]

yep- inherited. So how did they know that that number used to be the scorpions number? Because they had it on a list. They re-issued the number after the scorpions were killed, not because there was a double-numbering mistake.

 

Ah yes, but the beauty of a bureaucracy is that you don't need anyone in charge to re-assign numbers. It's done by the inherent cultural structure of the organization. Things are done because they have always been done. After ten thousand years, records are lost, hell whole chapters are lost. Yes Marines are the most important resource the Imperium has, but that doesn't mean it's free of the bureaucratic compartmentalization that afflicts all other parts of the galaxy spanning beast. The Imperium is decaying and a doom and gloom attitude to all aspects of human civilization is far more fitting. It's grim and it's dark (now if only we had a tearm for that :eek)

[NightrawenII]

I've commented before that one thing I don't mind about this suggested revision is that it fixes what is otherwise a glaring flaw in the narrative of a dying, decaying Imperium. In that narrative, it makes little sense to have the numbers of Marines steadily and drastically increasing throughout the history of the Imperium.

You are not quite right, but not quite wrong. :D

If you look at the history of Imperium in the Rulebook, you will see that the decaying Imperium mojo is only 'recent' trend. After the Scouring there was period called Age of Forging, the so-called golden age, when the Imperium reconquered all(=most) planets lost in the Heresy. This period was interrupted by the Age of Apostasy (M.36) and then followed by Age of Waning. The Age of Ending is just wild vision of some mad prophet and about century old.

 

Interestingly, if we look at the dates of the Foundings we can see connection. The Foundings up to 21st were done prior Age of Apostasy and the 21st was huge failure, after that we have seen only 5 additional Foundings. So the "steadily and drastically increasing numbers" is an illusion and corresponds with the lore.

 

[Well, you had the Legions post HH and then the Second Founding chapters and the Primarchs that survived helping the cause (Dorn, Khan, Corax, Guilliman, Russ and Vulkan). The knowledge of technology hadn't been completely lost yet and a number of forces hadn't raised their ugly heads. This time of relative peace and stability for the Imperium after the HH would allow for the build up of Astartes, if you looked at the estimated dates for foundings they were pumping these guys out early on. The 21st Founding occured in M36, the 3rd was M32. That puts 20 foundings in 4000 years, one every 250 years! Seeing as Astartes live longer than that, Marines would actually survive to see the next founding. After the 21st, it is on average once every millenia Astartes were created - 3 generations later for Marines. So, there was a massive explosion of chapters in 4000 years. Seeing as it was a 1000 between the 2nd and 3rd, you can guess this urgency to create new marines might coincide with the last of the Primarchs. The Imperium realising that it needed more Marines now that they had lost their greatest leaders (or the Primarchs didn't want chapters created that might not revere them as much).

Stop... stealing... my... responses. :D

[Leonaides]

yep- inherited. So how did they know that that number used to be the scorpions number? Because they had it on a list. They re-issued the number after the scorpions were killed, not because there was a double-numbering mistake.

 

Ah yes, but the beauty of a bureaucracy is that you don't need anyone in charge to re-assign numbers. It's done by the inherent cultural structure of the organization. Things are done because they have always been done. After ten thousand years, records are lost, hell whole chapters are lost. Yes Marines are the most important resource the Imperium has, but that doesn't mean it's free of the bureaucratic compartmentalization that afflicts all other parts of the galaxy spanning beast. The Imperium is decaying and a doom and gloom attitude to all aspects of human civilization is far more fitting. It's grim and it's dark (now if only we had a tearm for that :))

 

Nope, you dont need anyone in charge to re-assign numbers. But you do need to know what those numbers ARE! Which means that there IS a list. and it is useable, and used. Given the importance of marine chapters, I really really really cant see at least one or two HLoT's wanting to know exact numbers every century or so.

[A_POINTED_STICK]

When the Emperor made them, the chapters were 10,000 strong with the exception of the Thousand Sons and The Emperors Children. In time every chapter grew over the course of the crusade. The Ultras got 250k, the WB 100k, and so forth. These numbers fluctuated though. They probably averaged 100,000 in the high part crusade, but less later. However unless specifically mentioned I'd presume numbers were roughly maintained. The salamanders were presumably reduced to elements of seven grand companies. However no one else came close as they all created a successor or more.

 

I say ~2 million at peak, 1 million+ at heresy, divided during, and 400k left over of which most were Ultras.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Nope, you dont need anyone in charge to re-assign numbers. But you do need to know what those numbers ARE! Which means that there IS a list. and it is useable, and used. Given the importance of marine chapters, I really really really cant see at least one or two HLoT's wanting to know exact numbers every century or so.

 

Yes, but I think what he's trying to get across is that, given the enormity of Imperial bureaucracy, while there may indeed be a list, there might be several different copies of it floating around, each in the hands of a different office, each of whom think they're responsible for recording the naming/numbering of Chapters, and to whom information regarding the formation of new Chapters and destruction of old Chapters reaches at different times. We'll get one scribe who gets a note stating that a Chapter's been destroyed, and assign its now-vacant number to another Chapter, while another office got that information decades ago, and a seperate Chapter has already been given that number.

[Kastellan Kong]

Nope, you dont need anyone in charge to re-assign numbers. But you do need to know what those numbers ARE! Which means that there IS a list. and it is useable, and used. Given the importance of marine chapters, I really really really cant see at least one or two HLoT's wanting to know exact numbers every century or so.

 

Yes, but I think what he's trying to get across is that, given the enormity of Imperial bureaucracy, while there may indeed be a list, there might be several different copies of it floating around, each in the hands of a different office, each of whom think they're responsible for recording the naming/numbering of Chapters, and to whom information regarding the formation of new Chapters and destruction of old Chapters reaches at different times. We'll get one scribe who gets a note stating that a Chapter's been destroyed, and assign its now-vacant number to another Chapter, while another office got that information decades ago, and a separate Chapter has already been given that number.

 

This is pretty much what I was getting at but with better words and such -_-

[Leonaides]

But chapters arent double-numebred. They are specifically given a number that no other is given, and their heraldry/colours must be distinct from any other. And again, the imperium is HUGE, but there are a very small number of marine chapters. A very small number of incredibly important marine chapters, that are so powerful that the HLoT are worried about them. There will be an accurate list. It will be updated, and some of the guys in charge will know whats on it.

[Guest Mordray]

If there is a list then the exact number of chapters is known. Rather then simply being estimated at 1000 active chapters.

[Leonaides]

Yep - but the guy who knows isnt exactly spreading it around that widely...

[Ace Debonair]

Yep - but the guy who knows isnt exactly spreading it around that widely...

Then surely by the same logic, other scribes/record keepers/heraldric types who mistakenly re-assign numbers aren't going to be corrected any time soon, and the existence of said list is somewhat of a moot point?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Exactly. We have canon examples of Chapters reappearing long after they'd been declared dead, and supposedly had a new chapter created in their place. Case in point, the Tiger Claws. This was a Chapter that was declared extinct, to have died in battle. Several centuries later, the Astral Claws found a Tiger Claw strike cruiser exiting the Warp, which had living battle brothers on it, enough to recreate the Chapter. Now, what would have happened if that knowledge became widely known? The new Chapter gets told "sorry guys, but the real Chapter 472 actually isn't dead after all, so you're being disbanded because it turns out we didn't actually need you"?

[Banelord]

Yep - but the guy who knows isnt exactly spreading it around that widely...

Then surely by the same logic, other scribes/record keepers/heraldric types who mistakenly re-assign numbers aren't going to be corrected any time soon, and the existence of said list is somewhat of a moot point?

 

 

I was reading an old Index Astarte’s book, the first one, and I came across this:

 

Not all the founding’s of Space Marine Chapters are recorded in exact detail. However, the Adeptus Terra maintains a single bank of original gene-seed from every single Chapter ever created since the Horus Heresy. There is one notable exception: the Thirteenth Founding, also know as the Dark Founding. No-one knows how many Chapters were created by the Dark Founding….

So, I’m guessing that they have a fair ideal of how many Chapters they have created and likely they would have all be given an unique number. But to know how many Chapters are still in operation, with Imperial bureaucracy and the way Chapters operate, can be anyone’s guess. :tu:

[Iron Lord]

The Siege of Badab books add a couple of details.

 

The Exorcists are confirmed as a Dark Founding chapter in book 2.

 

And in book 1, it'a mentioned that the Fire Angels may not be the first chapter with that name and livery, and that this "while unusual, is not without precedent".

[Bloodcrusade]

Then you have Chapters who are so spread out that thier size <cough Templar cough> is impossible to know for sure.

<cough 6,421 cough>

:)

[Marshal Rohr]

60,421

[Culebras]

Traditonally in the Liber's it's been a no-no to make your chapter one of the Second Founding, since GW already has it pretty well locked down.

 

Well upon re-reading Codex Grey Knights, appearantly things are being retconned so that the Second Founding consisted of 400 chapters.

 

just food for thought after looking over some of the older DIY guides.

 

 

Keep in mind the passage that talks about 400 Chapters of the 2nd Founding goes on to say that nearly all of them had been removed from Imperial records within a century. It could be an indication that the casualty rate was rather high. It could be that the Apocrypha of Skaros is listing the 'survivors'.

 

Another option, beside high casualties, is that the structure and meaning of a space marine may have been in flux. At the time of the second founding, many of the rules of what was and was not a chapter were still new and untested. We assume that, when they said they created space marine chapters out of the legions, they mean they created them fully formed, with one thousand marines with equal shares of terminator armor/tanks/etc. However, since this was the first time it ever happened, there is the potential that they were very different.

 

Its possible that, rather than creating full-strength chapters, the legions were divided into smaller size organizations (say consisting of 4 or 5 companies) with the expectation that each would see to its own recruitment and equipping. This would put less pressure on established recruiting worlds and forge worlds, make it harder for the enemies to target and wipe out resources, and effectively stabilize the Imperium by putting dispersing chapters.

 

For instance, some of the Chapters may have been "informally created" around the time of the second forming by taking Companies garrisoning important worlds and being formally split off. Imagine a crusade seeding sectors of the galaxy with marines as they go in order to leave a trail of strong defenses to maintain order and potentially open additional fronts or faster resuplly. In the early days of the imperium, they idea of having a Marine chapter in every sector would probably have sounded feasible. also, since this was the second founding and they had no idea what would come next, I want to think they were more willing to experiment.

 

The problem is, of course, that smaller and under equipped chapters are vulnerable to being isolated, annihilated, or failing. Chapters that fail to thrive might have been dissolved and reabsorbed back into their parent legion or combined with other less succesful chapters. as time went on and subsequent foundings happened, traditions and rules developed and this possibility for innovation went extinct.

[Olis]

60,421

 

600,421

 

Wait a minute... that can't be right... :P

[Ithaqua]

This was actually one of the few bits of new Grey Knight fluff which I didn't have a problem with.

 

While the Second-Founding may have been the largest, the 400 figure does raise questions as to the size of subsequent foundings. It may be that several hundred chapters were created at each founding, or at least the earlier ones.

 

Perhaps the much touted 1000 Chapters figure is simply Imperial Propoganda and the real number is far higher. I'll explain my reasoning.

 

As Nightrawen said earlier it is only recently that the Imperium has gone into serious decline. At the start of M.41 the Imperium was at it's largest ever with the completion of the Macharian Crusade, certainly far bigger than the at the end of the Heresy. It seems likely that the number of Space marine Chapters grew with the Imperium. When the 1000 figure was reached (possibly during the Forging?) there was much fanfare and celebrating as its a nice, impressive number that looks good on official publications. And it has remained the "official" figure ever since. Most knowledge on the adeptus Astartes is heavily classified and the vast majoirty of even those with the adeptus terra do not have access to accurate information, so it is hardly likely that anyone outside the highest ranks of the Inquisition, Mechanicus and Administratum would be able to see the full list of chapters (if it exists, if it accurate). There would also be little purpose in revising the 1k figure as it is already high enough for propoganda purposes and no-one really needs to know it (outside the Mechanicus Gene-Seed department) as the Space Marines are an independent force that answers only to the Emperor. All a Crusade Commander needs to know is what Chapters are in the area and if they will support him, the galaxy is so vast that it the knowledge is simply of little practical use.

 

Also consider that if the 18 Legions had aproximately 70,000-100,000 Marines each at the peak the total number before the Heresy would be around 1.7 million marines. The 1000 chapter figure gives us around 1000,000 in M.41. The Great Crusade lasted 200-300 years and it managed to produce those 1.7 million marines amid some of the bloodiest fighting and before the recovery of huge amounts of Dark Age technology.

 

The Imperium has had 10,000 years. It seems absurd that they have not even recovered to pre-heresy strength with all that time, even given gene-seed debasement. A higher number of Chapters would go someway in addressing this.

 

I realise this is borderline heresy and fully expect to shown the error of my ways, but I thought this might be an interesting alternative view on the number of astarte chapters