Dual Leaders

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I was thinking whether it was ever really viable to take 2 HQs into battle, around the 1500 mark really. I guess there are 3 things I really want from this thread:

 

Firstly, my thoughts are largely on a combo of a Captain (because I love them and would really like a command squad) and a barebones librarian (probably to head up some sternguard, though in the command squad he gains FNP). Now I know you don't NEED 2 HQs and a 2nd won't add that much to a battle, but I am interested in people's opinions of them and particularly the results of people who have used them.

 

 

Secondly what do people think would work well together, Im including all possible HQs:

 

 

Chapter Masters

Captains

Librarians

Chaplains

MOTF

and special characters of all flavours that can be in the HQ section

 

 

 

 

Also thirdly, as a sort of side note, I want quite a characterful captain build, so any suggestions there might be interesting (im excluding relic blade + storm shield as good as it is and biker captains because I don't like them so much)

 

Thanks <_<

[Zynk Kaladin]

I don't know if this is constructive, but for fun I've always wanted to run 2 captains with 2 all plasma gun command squads...

[Luis_CC]

I. I often use Kantor and a librarian in 2.000p battles, but I think that including 2HQ at 1.500p tends to weaken the rest of your army in such a way that your list won´t be competitive.

 

II.

Chaplain + librarian (force weapons rerolls to hit, yes please)

Kantor + librarian (very versatile and provide advantages against any enemy or terrain)

 

III. I would suggest power fist, combi-melta with or without hellfire rounds (or plasma pistol) and auxiliar grenade launcher (2shooting weapons with HP5 and around 1,5-2wounds per C/C round against any enemy)

[Deus de Mortalis]

I run a captain on a bike and sometimes a chaplain with jump pack.

 

I will say that for regular codex guys, usually you are probably better off with just one HQ at 1500 pts. None of them are good by themselves, so need a backup squad, and that is a huge chunk of 1500 points right there.

[TyrionTheImp]

2 Captains with 2 Command Squads does sound pretty fun, I usually find if I do that their transport becomes first priority, with 2 it becomes harder, but then again blowing up 2 AV11 rhinos is fairly easy, unless you can hide them from LoS!

 

As for interesting combo's Lysander + Librarian with Gate of Infinity. Put these with Sternguard and Gate them around using Lysander's Bolter Drill to boost the damage output. Plus Lysander adds survivability with his Eternal Warrior and 2+/3++ saves. Oh, and acts as a great assault deterrent. It's pricey, but sounds really cool, haven't tried it personally though.

 

Hmm, if I were going to go for something different than the usual Relic Blade/Storm Shield captain, I'd go for something with a little more ranged capabilities, while trying to keep points similar, maybe make a "Jack-of-all-trades" style captain. Probably go great in Sternguard or shooty Command Squads

 

First, I'd go with a Lightning Claw. Costs half the points of a Relic Blade, re-rolls wounds, uses the Captain's Initiative. Not bad sounding.

 

Second, I'd add a combi-weapon, Combi-melta probably best, as a BS5 melta gun can always come in handy. Slag a transport, charge the cargo. Combi-plasma is also an option, but I feel it doesn't really add to the versatility, combi-flamer just wastes the BS5 potential imho.

 

Thirdly, Hellfire Rounds, hitting and wounding on 2+ with a basic bolter is pretty good, even if it is only AP5

 

I'd probably stop there, unless you wanted to add Artificer armor. The Grenade Launcher adds extra shooting, which is great, but for 15 points? Meh...Melta Bombs are great if you only manage to immobilize the tank, but chances are you won't use them terribly often, or miss with them when you do. Digital Weapons? Oh wait, Lightning Claw.

 

Overall, he's not super-awesome by himself, but in a squad he can add to the damage output, give a fight in close-combat, and blow up a tank sometimes, and only costs 135 points (excluding artificer armor).

[Xeonic]

Now, a captain(whatever loadout, probably LC/combi plas for synergy with the command squad), plasma command squad, and throw in a Nullzone libby(w/plasma pistol). 11 plasma shots that force invuln save rerolls, yes please. Expensive and a bit(lot) inefficient, for sure, but it can evaporate pretty much anything that's not AV 13/14 or more than T8. In one turn.

 

If I was shooting for really fun and not so competitive, I'd take a captain(probably relic blade combi melta) and a chaplain(jumppack). Leading a (demi?) company list of course.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

calgar + tiggie Ftw.

 

regarding non standard Capt load outs: TH+PW, gives you the choice of I5 or str8 stunning/AV shaking.

 

another off the wall idea, and NO where near cost effective: Capt + Cmd squad(CC geared) + chappie + x3 Techmarnies w/PW from your elites, 800 pt Death star... but hey, you'd sure get the ;) reaction from across the board.

 

on a charge:

9 pw attacks from theTM

3 TM servo PF attacks

4 from the Chappie

5 from the capt

20 from the Cmd (bp+ccw+charge...)

...41 attacks, re-rolling misses...

 

edit: personal, i run calgar, all the time, because, besides death guard plague marines(fearless,T5,FNP) I feel that All "SPACE MARINES should have God of war as a Universal rule.

[Hellios]

I've taken 3 HQs at 1,500pts so 2 is certainly possible... I'm not saying three is the way to go :D or even two but I tend to take a captain (Wolf Lord) kitted out for combat and cheap rune priests :cuss

[Fatuous]

I think 2 HQs can work, and doesn't have to break the bank. Captains can get pricey cos they HAVE to have upgrades, or just won't do anything. That is not the case with most of the other HQs.

 

Lib: With out upgrades can still cast the spells, etc......... bar terminator armour (so u can get a storm shield) I don't think they need any more upgrades. None upgraded you only get 1 power per turn, but what more can you ask for at that sort of cost?!?!?!

 

Chaplain: TBH even cheaper in some ways as really doesn't need anything else, inv save and a power weapon, all as standard!!!! The SC Chaplain is so cheap as to almost be broken for his stat line)..... Cassius, that's the one (forgot the name for a mo)

 

MOF: (I am baised to the MOF as I love using mine!!!! You have been warned). No inv save......... that is the only down side IMO. He's tooled to the eyeballs, and tbh if you take a tech marine, and have a spare HQ slot, you should prob be taking the MOF instead....... he comes with his harness as standard and has more wounds. Power weapon.... yes is useful but he isn't that great in CC, and mine is often just thrown in to hold up an assault, he rarely lives long enough to use his power fist attacks. Given a choice, a plasma pistol is better, for 2 plasma shots a turn. but even that isn't really needed, as a twin linked plasma pistol AND a flamer usually do a fair amount of carnage on their own perfect to supliment a tac squad with :) .................. oh yes, AND he can fix your vehicles too (don't get tooo excited by this, but is a nice to have.... in 1 game, I fixed 2 wep destroyed, and 2 immobilised results on my 2 ven dreads............ and basically for no extra point cost, just him and his harness)

 

I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that 2 HQs don't have to be too expensive, if you are not taking a captain. If you are taking Lysander for example in 1.5k list, you could drop him and replace with 2 lib, chap or MOF if you don't take upgrades (and none of these really NEED upgrades IMO).

 

If you are aiming for a 1.5k list, I think a captain, command squad, sternguard squad AND a 2nd HQ is probably not going to work so well............... Captains, command squads and Sternguard have a habit of wanting lots of nice wargear, that inflates the price too much.

 

If you want 2 HQs, a one has to be a captain, then try to keep the other as bar bones as possible to save pionts for the rest of the army.

 

EG.

 

Chaplain, with a jump pack, attached to an assualt squad. Or no jump pack, with an assault unit (like the command squad, but keep him cheap!).

Librarian..... bare bones, with pretty much any unit.... stern guard for gate-ing apparently works well.

MOF for any tac squad. Take a full tac squad, with what ever upgrades u want (they all work well tbh, I'll continue assuming flamer/missile launcher) and a razor back. Combat squad, with the ML team in ur DZ, and send out ur sarge, flamer and MOF in the razor back. The MOF is mobile and has a body guard so can get to damaged vechiles to try to fix them........ OR the whole unit rocks up, and unleashes 2 flamers, plasma pistol, etc...... in to what ever unit u feel like.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I really like the idea of that Thunder hammer + Power weapon (just thought, could make this a relic blade instead of power weapon) wielding captain, I mean he can only use one or the other and lacks ranged power, but it sounds fun as he can be both a very lethal threat to both vehicles and infantry. I was debating dual thunder hammers, but that leaves him really exposed to being punched to pieces by number of hits.

 

I suppose his number of attacks is identical to that of a relic blade using captain, he just has to pick which weapon hes choosing to use?

 

He sounds good, Im liking the idea! :D

[DarkGuard]

In one of the 1750pts list I'm running at the moment I'm using a Captain and a barebones Libby. Both run with my quad-plasma squad. Lots of fun, when you take into account my Vindicators and the fact that my Libby has Null Zone. With this combination my Command squad and Vindy's can wipe out elite squads like, say Terminators (which we'll see a lot more of now) while my Captain protects them somewhat in combat. At the moment my Libby has Avenger as a matter of course, but it might be worth giving him Might for when that squad gets charged. That being said my Libby stays in the Rhino when using Null Zone.

 

At 1500pts I wouldn't advocate using two HQs unless they're cheap. Like a Libby and a Captain. My Nid list runs two Prime at 1500pts, each coming in at 115pts each top. But then that's Nids, which is different to Space Marines. More expensive troops means we need to load up on them and taking two HQs makes that harder.

[BearersOfSalvation]

regarding non standard Capt load outs: TH+PW, gives you the choice of I5 or str8 stunning/AV shaking.

 

TH + LC does the same, but gives you rerolled wounds on the I5 attacks.

 

Captain for crazy CC abilities with an assault unit plus librarian for all of his special stuff either with them or with a strong shooting unit is probably the most effective combo, but captain + chaplain + crazy CC unit gives you a really nasty charge. If you want to go HQ crazy, I think you can go further than Fatiswon's idea of throwing in techmarines by taking a squad of decked out vanguard vets instead of the command squad, and loading the whole 15 guys into a land raider crusader.

[pattison]

I ran 2 footslogging MotFs with beamer in my tournament list last year.

My opponents just HATED them.

2 bolstered ruins in the corners of your deploy zone is heaven for this loadout. Attach them to a lascannon combat squad, roll a melta rhino to midfield and land raiders won't be able to decide if they should come forward to avoid the beamers but face melta or stay back to avoid melta but get the BS5 templates + a lascannon (and not to transport anything muscular to my lines). If they move to the right they get shot by the left one and vice versa.

Spearhead sucks a bit though, or when you don't have ruins. You do have rhinos still with 2 fire points for the beamer and the lascannon...

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Causing an opponent to make a serious rethink of their strategy is something that becomes a really strong tool, so something like that loadout could be game changing. Its a really nice idea pattison!

 

I think something like Calgar + Cassius + HG + Techmarines could be a pretty monstrous unit in CC, problem with said units is that they are sooo expensive they become difficult to actually use.

 

I once debated Calgar + Lysander (though irritatingly you can't save Calgars combat tactics from being overwritten) and someone pointed out that you could put these HQs into a command squad to add FNP to them ;) Then to be really mean, have 3 units of HG roam the field killing indiscriminantly...

 

Good call on the Lightning claw BearerOfSalvation

[pattison]

Making opponents rethink and do stuff that they didn't intend to do originally is my favourite and most common tool. ;)

On a tournament where I fielded the double MotFs (alongside 6 Typhoons, GK terminator allies, preds, a vindie etc.) one of my opponent was absolutely shocked by my army list, and after the deployment he confessed that he's quite sure now that I'm completely nuts. ;)

He came with eldar, I won 2-0...

 

The problem with the "Calgar + Cassius + HG + Techmarines" and "Calgar + Lysander + HG" loadouts is simply their point cost and huge footprint.

Whenever I see a unit skyrocketing at 5-6-700 pts I'm damn happy as I'll outmaneouver them, and even if they kill something each turn (not likely) they simply won't have enough time to earn their points.

When I run my Fists with C:SM (and not with C:BT) I try to avoid units that cost more than 200 pts. It helps target saturation immensely and the opponent has to ignore stuff that will give him headache in the last couple of turns...

 

With C:SM it's always your last 2 turns that is the strongest (opposing for example IG which is exactly the opposite, and for example Orks are at their peak around halftime of the game). But I'm getting a bit off topic here.

 

For me the only other double HQ choice was the naked Libby + beamer MotF pair, but they haven't been as adorable as my hyper-techmarine-twins.

 

Taking anything else besides a named character is problematic solely for point cost reasons.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I completely agree, though 250 tends to be my 'woah thats too expensive' because things like land raiders and 10 men assault squads tend to be around that mark.

 

 

The only unit i'd field that goes more than that is perhaps a 310 point sternguard unit.

 

 

With HQs theres a whole roster of different reasons to choose different people. Most of the vanilla HQ choices (Chapter Master, Captain, Chaplain, Librarian and Master Of The Forge) are quite cheap and cheerful, but almost all of them are most benefitted when workin with a MELEE squad.

 

 

None of the regular HQs are 'force multipliers' as they only buff 1 squad or so at most. However the Special Characters (or at least a few of them) CAN benefit the ENTIRE army. However they dont really mesh well..... nor are they cheap.

[DarkGuard]

None of the regular HQs are 'force multipliers' as they only buff 1 squad or so at most. However the Special Characters (or at least a few of them) CAN benefit the ENTIRE army. However they dont really mesh well..... nor are they cheap.

 

I'd have to disagree with this. I feel that Vulkan more than any of the other characters meshes really well into any list. Flamer and melta weaponry are typically the better choices over plasma, and so Vulkan benefits the army by improving them. Furthermore, while he is a melee character he's not bad at shooting, and so can be placed into a Sternguard or even Tactical squad instead of a melee unit like Assault Terminators. Most other choices (with the exceptions of Pedro, MotF and Libbys) tend to want to be placed in melee units. These few choices that can go in either are fantastic as they are normally force multipliers in their own rights and can bring something significant to shooting, be it a modified storm bolter, heavy flamer, or psychic power.

 

When playing at high points, any of the above few together will still work really well, I'm thinking of using Vulkan and a Libby at 2000pts, and not a single melee unit in sight. On the other hand, these choices can mesh well with the majority, and provided you keep an eye on points cost a Captain or even special character like Lysander can work really well with a Libby.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

None of the regular HQs are 'force multipliers' as they only buff 1 squad or so at most. However the Special Characters (or at least a few of them) CAN benefit the ENTIRE army. However they dont really mesh well..... nor are they cheap.

 

 

I don't really consider the regular HQs force multipliers, I consider a good deal of the SCs force multipliers, particularly vulkan.

 

For instance what out of the regular vanilla HQs can bring something to change/improve the entire army? Well the captain can bring bikers as troops and the MOTF can make dreads a heavy option too and bolster some ruins, but as for a complete boost army wide the regulars don't do much overall..

 

 

The special characters on the other hand (vulkan particularly) can give your whole army an entire change, upgrading all those weapons or giving them a rule which befits a certain play style. What i mean when i say they dont mesh well is that several characters have their own chapter tactics, so you have to pick one, which means then you only take the second character for their weapons and staline rather than what they bring to the table, because a good deal of the SCs (and again vulkan always does well....hes rather amazing really) can just be put into a list and make it work with themselves!

 

 

I suppose its because I classify 'Force Multiplier' to improve the ENTIRE army, rather than just buff a single unit. I'd just call the small buff a Multiplier. But thats probably just the way i percieve it :P

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Might as well ask in this thread:

 

HQs generally are a little odd for marines, for the most part they are pretty CC oriented apart from maybe the librarian and motf. This also extends to special characters as most of these tend to be CC oriented. The strange part is that although they are pretty efficient they require a bodyguard which will then also focus on CC. However marines aren't generally a CC army, so it almost ensures that the CC unit you make is going to have a hard time 'taking on everything'

 

Its made me think quite a bit about a captain for instance, hes got a decent statline but really it only puts him a little above enemy elites, die hard enemy elites probably won't have too much trouble killing him and his retinue in melee anyway, so should we think about bringing characters for their table wide benefits or unit buffs rather than what they can actually do in a fight?

[DarkGuard]

Sorry to thread-jack, but it felt like the best place to put this question across. We've discussed the viability of different characters and different combos. However, apart from a brief mention from the OP, we haven't discussed what points limits we should, or should not be taking two HQ choices in.

 

To say it clearly because I can't quite fully understand that last sentence, at 1500pts and below I feel you should only take one HQ, unless you're running too cheap HQs. Certainly you shouldn't spend much more than 200pts on HQs at 1500pts IMO. However, at 1750pts upwards should we really be starting to get another HQ in, our should we not bother until 2000pts our something, and spend those extra points on more models.

 

Relating to Grim's recent question, if say, we have a Libby as our HQ from 1000-1500pts, should we then ensure we have a Captain as well at 1750pts to give us some more combat presence to make up for the Libby's weakness? Today that certainly helped me as my Captain took down a Dreadknight (albeit a weakened one while wielding a digi relic blade) and held his own against a Grand Master. The Libby meanwhile covered the Captain's shortfall in shooting with Avenger killing 6 guys over two turns (small squad and weakened squad). Here the two HQs proved essential in 1750pts as they covered each others weaknesses, but were they really that essential? Due to other units that I was taking I was left with only two scoring units, while my opponent had four (after Grand Strategy). At 1750pts though I start to feel uncomfortable with using only two scoring units, and want to take at least another, small scoring unit, releasing one of my bigger squads to go forward and attack. To do this though I'd have to drop a Vindy, or the Typhoons, or my extra HQ.

 

So are two HQs necessary in bigger points games? Or would it be better to spend those points on other units that help expand the force in different ways? When do you guys start adding two HQs? My brother has been using two HQs at 1500pts, but I'll only start thinking about it at 1750pts, and I feel that it's only at 2000pts when two HQs will be guaranteed in my army. Thoughts?

[DerekLee688]

Two HQ's are never necessary. I've never used two, because like you said, that second choice is worth a vindi/typhoon/dread/etc.

 

However, if you're into the fluff or want change up your army, two HQ's get's the job done. Dropping your captain+command squad or Librarian+sternguard and picking up two MoTF in a vehicle heavy list is pretty much a force multiplier.

 

Most HQ's being melee orinted isn't exactly a bad thing, that's what we're weaker in. If we didn't have those kind of HQ's we would suck almost as bad as Tau/Necrons in CC and we would REALLY be envious of SW and BA.

[TheDVoid]

Brothers hear me!

 

I have used to HQ choices in both my Black Templars and Raven Guard.

First my Templars, as you would expect I had an emperors champion who

led my sword brethren on many a glorious charge and never himself fell.

But I also had a reclusiarch leading a squad of assault marines.

 

In my raven guard list I have Shadow Captain Shriek who leads a squad

Of assult marines but I also have a reclusiarch leading my vanguard vets.

 

In apocalypse games I took all four and they turned out to work very well

Together. I find space marine armys (including chaos) are the only ones

except prehaps the two eldars who can pull off multiple HQ choices.

 

I find having a starting hq choice on the field and then one in a very killy deep

Strike squad is incredably usefull. Allows you to bolster your troops just where

You need it.

[TheDVoid]

Brothers hear me!

 

I have used to HQ choices in both my Black Templars and Raven Guard.

First my Templars, as you would expect I had an emperors champion who

led my sword brethren on many a glorious charge and never himself fell.

But I also had a reclusiarch leading a squad of assault marines.

 

In my raven guard list I have Shadow Captain Shriek who leads a squad

Of assult marines but I also have a reclusiarch leading my vanguard vets.

 

In apocalypse games I took all four and they turned out to work very well

Together. I find space marine armys (including chaos) are the only ones

except prehaps the two eldars who can pull off multiple HQ choices.

 

I find having a starting hq choice on the field and then one in a very killy deep

Strike squad is incredably usefull. Allows you to bolster your troops just where

You need it.