bearden441 Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 So this weekend I played two games with the new codex, both games were against DE - the first at 1850, the second at 1000 (didnt have a ton of time). The 1850 game I completely wiped the DE force off the board. He played fairly aggressively and go unlucky on some rolls. At the end of the game he only had a total of 6-7 models left on the table where I had only lost a squad of knights (10 men with 2 psycannons and a MCDH).... of course my dreads and rhinos were pretty beaten up. Here I pretty much played water style tactics, castling up in a corner and reacting to his moves while picking off his transports. Things to note: If not handled immediately and correctly, paladins with a librarian are the best unit in the codex hands down. They are deadly at mid range shooting, and even deadlier in hand to hand with quickening and the BHB. Wound allocation helps to keep them alive (in the first game none of them died, however each took a wound). In the second game, I tried the same tactics, thinking he would try to swing around and overtake me quickly... instead he hung back and pounded the crap out of my with dark lances and disintegrator cannons. By turn 3 I couldnt even get close and he wiped me off the table. With that said, my question is "How would one compensate for this?" I was thinking after the game that I could have moved out of cover and taken my chances out in the open (using smoke first) to potentially get one turn of shooting off before he fired back and popping my rhinos. The thing is, after I move out of cover he was positioned perfectly to drop all his wyches on me. Just wondering if anything has run into the same situation and how they dealt with it. Thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adir Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Two words: deep strike. Both of our basic troop choices come built in with deep strike. Servo skulls and psychic communion create a fairly reliable mechanism to bring in our hitters within that 24" envelope. In my experience with the new GK, opponents quickly learned to hang back and weaken us with shooting. IG, Tau, and (to a lesser degree) Dark Eldar can generally remain outside that envelope so getting used to deep striking when needed will be essential to strong GK generalship. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2720152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearden441 Posted April 11, 2011 Author Share Posted April 11, 2011 Yes that could work to an extent, however, after deep striking, our troops are sitting out in the open ready to be shot to death, and have little to no mobility after the first volley from the enemy. Would this really be the best option? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2720221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorider2 Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 GK do have some decent long range options - landraider, sniper dread, vindicare. Having 3 or so of these and first turn would often greatly limit the number of big guns firing back - especially against DE AV 10/11 vehicles. But at the end of the day the GK's real strength starts at midfield and you certainly want to claim that. Castling in the corner can work, but better left to other armies I think. How to hold midfield is always easier said then done, but there are various options including DS, interceptors, spam rhinos/razors/chimeras, distract with dreadknights, 3 landraiders with termies/paladins, etc. I think an army of 60 interceptors would one fun option, just watch out for those templates! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2720282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resv Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 This is something I have been thinking about more and more. My best mate usually plays DE or Tau and is something of an expert at long range shooting and in our recent games he has exploited the range weakness quite a bit. To counter act this sort of play I started looking at more of the unused portions of the codex, specifically Interceptor Squads and Storm Ravens. I'm not the biggest fan of Storm Raves, I think they cost to much and their AV12 isn't that great but they are fast and that counts for something. Interceptor Squads are an interesting unit though and I have been plying around with adding in a unit to my army. In my game yesterday against my mates DE I used a full 10 with Psycannons and Psybolt Ammo and combat squadded them (the only reason to take one unit over two is to exploit the Grand Strategy and to keep the cost of ammo down) and they did fairly well. I deep struck them onto a group of skulls and then kited around the DE units. They killed a fair amount of DE and were eventually lost but they did disrupt my opponents long range shooting. Just a suggestion, I know it isn't the best ever but it is an option! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2720288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 I have no luck kiting Deldar. :( If it's not Fleeting Wyches, it's Fleeting Beastmasters with thier 12" charge. :( It only took one game after rolling a '1' on combat drugs for our Deldar player to go form hating that result to loving it! I say deploy as close to midfield as possible, and place any home objectives as close as well. Then just out CC the Deldar. Wyches aren't really Scary. Incubi are. But lots of I6 power Weapons help there! :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2720294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Trying to "out-CC" the Dark Eldar is a dangerous proposition. You can't be certain you'll be able to get away with it. Make no mistake, DE are a top-notch army, scary to tangle with both at range and up close. I myself don't intend to buy halberds everywhere in my army lists. And quality army lists shouldn't have to depend solely on a single piece of wargear in order to be viable. The new GK codex is a good one. We don't require 1-trick-ponies to hang with the big boys anymore. We're one of the big boys ourselves, now! There will always be more than one way to skin our enemy cats. My solution for DE -- and I do play against them -- is to build a balanced list. Every 40K army needs to have a mix of long-range and mid-range dakka. A mix of anti-tank and anti-armour dakka. Mobility. Outright speed. And the ability to weather and initiate quality assaults. And all of these requirements are necessary no matter who you face. Including the Dark Eldar. So if you are having trouble with the DE, I suggest that the problem is your army list. You're probably depending far too much on terminator or purifier assault and/or your 24" dakka to defeat enemies. That means your list is not balanced. If someone can just dictate the terms of the fight, your army list has failed before a single die has been rolled. Beef up your long-range dakka. Consider a Vindicare Assassin, a shooty warband with jokaero and stormbolters in a Chimera, "psyfleman" dreadnoughts, "psybacks" (razorbacks with TLHB and psybolts), mounted psycannon purgation units (counts as long range because you can drive the unit to midfield and hide entirely behind your transport for cover yet hit almost the entire table from that position). Virtually every well-rounded GK list is going to have some mix of these elements in them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2720313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chucku Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Use the center of the board effectively to keep max ranges down. Use available LR weapons (RifleDreads, Vindicare, Techmarine w/ Conv. Beamer, Orbital Strike Relays, etc) to their best effect Use Coteaz to secure or deny seizing of Turn 1 so you can get your shots off. Use Deep Strike and Summoning effectively for mobility. Use 'shunt' movement effectively. Use transports and their weapons effectively. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2720315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Granted, I've only had minimal games facing the Deldar, but what I've found is that we have some fantastic options for neutering thier CC capabilities. Blind Grenades and Psychotrokes even the field nicely (especially when coupled with counterattack), even if they are quite difficult to include in most lists. In my last game facing them, a Squad of 10 Pallies destoyed a Talos, a unit of Bloodbrides and a unit of Helions who asaulted them at the same time. Losing only a few mini's in return. It would have been easier if I had used a Banner for automatic Force Weapon activation, as I fluffed my roll to ID the Talos first turn (luckily the NDH wounded it, which allowed it to be IDed next turn before it could do anything). But what really netted me the kills were Psycannons in Rhinos. The Rhinos lasted long enough to protect the squads inside, and the Psycannons killed anything without a FnP save. :/ (And the Deldar paper tanks were destoryed by Psy-Rifle Dreads. Far better at it than the Vindi) Still I6 Halberds are probably the best all round option we have for CC wepaons, with only Strike Squads (and Interceptors) not wanting to take them. If you're using Termies, Pallies or Puri's, you'll have Halberds by default (unless you're using a Quckening Libby with a Squad), and they will make mincemeat of most units in the game. Deldar included. The Force weapon (or S5) is just icing on the top. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2720327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chucku Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 The Dark Eldar wouldn't get FNP vs the Psycannon. It causes outright Instant Death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2720367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 >_< We forgot that! Take many more Psycannons then! Park midfield in Rhino's and blast away! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2720392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 I've personally always asked myself why don't shots against open-topped vehicles have a chance to randomly kill their passengers (they are exposed after all) but I'll leave that rambling for another day.... I won't repeat most of what has been said, as I do agree with most of them (balanced armies, have shooty options, Deep Strike etc). If you consider the other SM armies, you would probably notice that the better army lists have answers to this situation. The BAs for example have extreme mobility. You want to sit back? They will be in your face anyway, and if the person uses packs/bikes/Deep Strike there is nothing you can do to stop them short of killing them all. The SWs can pull Greyhunter spam (I call it Greyhunter spam because I've seen people play a mix of Rhino/Razorback squads well, as opposed to pure Razorspam) because they have three Long Fang squads in their backfield, threatening multiple targets with their split fire every turn. In effect, even the SW's can threaten twice as many targets at long range as a GK army with only three Psyfles as ranged support. Vanilla Marine armies are a little more varied but they generally have quite a few fast/long ranged options as well. This means if you don't want to have a big gaping hole in your plan, you would need mobility and ranged support. We do have some long ranged options, although some are a little awkward - a Vindicare and three Psyfles could easily make the cut, and if you wanted to an Inquisitorial Devastator squad isn't too horrible an option, although it does require a HQ slot. You could, if you are so inclined, take Conversion Beamers and Orbital nukes, but I'm not entirely sold on those yet. As for mobility, we have a ton of Deep Strike options and most of the usual transport options (minus the Pod, although we do get the SR), and of course, Interceptors (and the teleporting Dreadknight, but I feel its a little costly and competes for HS slots). And Mordrak. From the OP it sounds like it was simply a tactical mistake. If he wanted to play the shooting game his deployment would have probably been different from his rush deployment, and from the get-go you would have had to adapt your strategy rather than expecting the exact same strategy to work twice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2720411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearden441 Posted April 11, 2011 Author Share Posted April 11, 2011 Beef up your long-range dakka. Consider a Vindicare Assassin, a shooty warband with jokaero and stormbolters in a Chimera, "psyfleman" dreadnoughts, "psybacks" (razorbacks with TLHB and psybolts), mounted psycannon purgation units (counts as long range because you can drive the unit to midfield and hide entirely behind your transport for cover yet hit almost the entire table from that position). Virtually every well-rounded GK list is going to have some mix of these elements in them. Yes I agree. We were talking earlier about using psybacks and other things in low point games. Im curious about using purgation squads and might have to try it out (would you use 5 men or 10 men). He mentioned combat squading in a rhino with psycannon and leave back the other 5 (though im not sure how this would work). In my 1850 list I was running 3x psyfleman dreads with 6 psycannons in rhinos and 2 MC psycannons deep striking in around skulls so i did have a ton of long ranged power in the winning list. In my 1000 pt list I had 1 psyfleman dread, 4 psycannons in rhinos and 2 MC psycannons deep striking. From the OP it sounds like it was simply a tactical mistake. If he wanted to play the shooting game his deployment would have probably been different from his rush deployment, and from the get-go you would have had to adapt your strategy rather than expecting the exact same strategy to work twice. He actually set up exactly how he usually sets up, everything on the strong side flank ready for a burst up the side. I did make a tactical error in spreading my forces out a bit too much in deployment. He used his first turn move to spread his forces across his deployment to create a gunline. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2720459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Im curious about using purgation squads and might have to try it out (would you use 5 men or 10 men). He mentioned combat squading in a rhino with psycannon and leave back the other 5 (though im not sure how this would work). I don't see the point of combat-squadding purgation squads. Take 5 men, 4 psycannons, and a razorback (ideal) or rhino (at least acceptable). What will the other 5 guys do? And how will they get anywhere? Take purgators because of what they do well. Don't take a full 10-man unit when there's no reason to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2720496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adir Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 How about 5 x purgation w/4 psycannons, 1 malleus inq w/psycannon? Take three acolytes with a chimera, kick them out of the chimera and load that thing up with 20 psycannon shots! Standing still of course. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2720654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I am thinking that waiting to turn 3 to decided to actually do something besides imitating a clay pigeon was a mistake. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2720811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Yes that could work to an extent, however, after deep striking, our troops are sitting out in the open ready to be shot to death, and have little to no mobility after the first volley from the enemy. Would this really be the best option? Yes. The key is to support them properly- long range fire support from raiders, dreads, etc. Move in strike squads, bring up extra reinforcements with summoning.... Theyre not exposed if theres nothing significant in the way of threats when the dust settles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2721118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman_woo Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I am thinking that waiting to turn 3 to decided to actually do something besides imitating a clay pigeon was a mistake. Based on limited past expereince; when I'm shooting at them, the clay pigeon generally wins :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2721239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chucku Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Anyone considering putting a Techmarine/Conversion Beamer in with a Purgation Squad? That 'doesn't need line of sight' seems like a handy thing to have for the Conv. Beamer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2721399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Anyone considering putting a Techmarine/Conversion Beamer in with a Purgation Squad? That 'doesn't need line of sight' seems like a handy thing to have for the Conv. Beamer. Purgation Squad guns are short ranged, and a Conversion Beamer at short range is bleh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2721522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackbar Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Anyone considering putting a Techmarine/Conversion Beamer in with a Purgation Squad? That 'doesn't need line of sight' seems like a handy thing to have for the Conv. Beamer. Purgation Squad guns are short ranged, and a Conversion Beamer at short range is bleh. Who said anything about buying the purgators guns? 110 points buys you 5 guys with halberds who can make any attached character able to ignore LoS. Add 1-3 conversion beamer techmarines and hide them in a corner behind terrain. Now the enemy has to come to you or else face S10 AP1 pie plates every turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2721529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Anyone considering putting a Techmarine/Conversion Beamer in with a Purgation Squad? That 'doesn't need line of sight' seems like a handy thing to have for the Conv. Beamer. Purgation Squad guns are short ranged, and a Conversion Beamer at short range is bleh. Who said anything about buying the purgators guns? 110 points buys you 5 guys with halberds who can make any attached character able to ignore LoS. Add 1-3 conversion beamer techmarines and hide them in a corner behind terrain. Now the enemy has to come to you or else face S10 AP1 pie plates every turn. Feels like a lot of slots and a lot of points, and unless I've gotten my rules confused (I don't have my codex in front of me), those are S10 AP1 guns that your opponent would get an awesome cover save against, and cannot target vehicles (IIRC the Purgation psychic power doesn't let you target vehicles). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2721553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Feels like a lot of slots and a lot of points, and unless I've gotten my rules confused (I don't have my codex in front of me), those are S10 AP1 guns that your opponent would get an awesome cover save against, and cannot target vehicles (IIRC the Purgation psychic power doesn't let you target vehicles). It says you can't target passengers inside transports. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2721557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Feels like a lot of slots and a lot of points, and unless I've gotten my rules confused (I don't have my codex in front of me), those are S10 AP1 guns that your opponent would get an awesome cover save against, and cannot target vehicles (IIRC the Purgation psychic power doesn't let you target vehicles). It says you can't target passengers inside transports. Ah fair enough. I recalled something vaguely about vehicles. I need that codex in front of me so bad :X I guess it could work, but it would be a ton of points for a squad that cannot split fire and actually only shoots 1-3 times per turn, and only at maximum effectiveness if they actually stay at max range. Even if you take two Techmarines (IMO one would be too unreliable) in a min squad it would be over 300 points. You could take the Ordo Xenos Inquisitor instead but it would end up taking a HQ slot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2721563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackbar Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I admit, it's horribly expensive for what it offers, but don't underestimate being able to ignore LoS on a crowded board. I'd take S10 Ap1 ignoring LoS but with 4+ cover over lascannons and psy-rifle dreads (with the enemy possibly being out of LoS or getting 4+ or even 3+ cover) when the enemy is sitting back pelting me with a Leman Russ Executioner from outside the range of my psycannons. Given how few options we have to really reach out and touch someone, and how fragile/expensive most of them are, (Vindicare assassin easily goes splat from one round of shooting with a missile-spam devastator/long fang squad, Land Raider is too expensive for 2 lascannons, etc.) I'm even willing to try something as expensive as 2 techmarines with OSR attached to a purgation squad. We can't really win trying to cross the board under fire from a gunline/castle deployment if the enemy army has good shooting, we need to be able to either disrupt them severly or give them an incentive to close with us. I'm trying to come up with ideas that don't involve suicide strikes by deep strike or teleport shunt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227105-the-plight-of-the-mid-ranged-army/#findComment-2721606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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