A Warband of 12 psykers is 12 psykers (see Culexus)

[CheezeFezt]

RAW: "All psykers in the same unit are treated as a single psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests, etc.

 

To lend more credence, quote Brotherhood of Pyskers "The unit [Grey Knights] counts as a single psyker"

 

So one concludes that RAW, a unit of 12 psykers counts as only 1 psyker for the Culexus weapon.

 

But this is wrong. When quoting a rule, it must be in context. For example, one can't quote a rule in close combat, then say it apply to shooting. Pretty obvious there.

 

The full context of the Psyker rule:

Psychic Powers: Psychic Barrage:

...

Only one Psychic Barrage is 'fired', regardless of the number of psykers in the squad. All psykers in the same unit are treated as a single psyker for the purpose of Psychic tests, etc, and use their own Leadership value, not that of any attached characters.

 

From context, it's fairly obvious the "single psyker" apply only to using the Psychic Barrage. It got no meaning outside of it. So how many psykers are in a 12-psyker warband? 12 pyskers.

 

Otherwise consider the crazy logic. A unit of psykers are treated as a single psyker. The Strength of the weapon increases by 1 for each additional psykers in the unit beyond the first. A unit of psykers are treated as a single psyker, thus there can never be any additional psykers beyond the first, they're a single psyker. So the strength will always be 3 and AP 6 regardless of the number of psykers in that unit.

 

Context is important. Only in the very narrow case of using the Psychic Barrage is the unit treated as 1 psykers. In all other situation, it's as normal.

[Drachnon]

it get +1 strength and -1 AP for each additional Psyker with a capital letter meaning not just a model with psychic powers but the actual henchmen called Psykers. I must say its odd that the Psykers lack the psyker special rule that other codices seem to have for their psykers.

So perhaps they don't count as psykers at all.

[Grand Master Tchezzarus]

The full context of the Psyker rule:

Psychic Powers: Psychic Barrage:

...

Only one Psychic Barrage is 'fired', regardless of the number of psykers in the squad. All psykers in the same unit are treated as a single psyker for the purpose of Psychic tests, etc, and use their own Leadership value, not that of any attached characters.

 

From context, it's fairly obvious the "single psyker" apply only to using the Psychic Barrage. It got no meaning outside of it. So how many psykers are in a 12-psyker warband? 12 pyskers.

 

To me the important part of the rule is : "etc".

I understood it as : "for any rules regarding Psyker".

I may be wrong, but it was already ruled this way 'at least for GK squad) in Codex:DH and consecutive FAQ. So unless It's FAQued differently, if it ever get FAQued, that's how I'll play it.

[Aidoneus]

It doesn't help that GW can't seem to decide whether the special rule "psyker" is spelled with a capital "P" or not. To name just a couple examples, the Culexus' Animus spells it "Psyker," but the Daemonbane rule on the very next page spells it "psyker."

 

Within the unit entry for "PSYKER," we see that the strength/AP of the shooting attack increases for each "Psyker," but every other instance of the word in the paragraph below is spelled "psyker." One would assume that the selective capitalization should help distinguish between the special rule and the name of the type of henchman, except that (as previously mentioned) GW clearly uses both spellings interchangeably.

 

As far as I can tell, none of the henchmen have the special rule psyker,, and so none of them count as psykers for any purposes other than just shooting their psychic power. GKs only count as pskyers because each unit has the special rule Brotherhood of Psykers, which in turn expressly says that the unit "counts as a single psyker and follows all the normal rules for psykers..." The henchmen have no listed special rules, and indeed the only time they are said to be "treated as" a psyker is in the context of their one psychic power. Therefore, outside of that one power, I don't think they would count as psykers at all.

[CheezeFezt]

The full context of the Psyker rule:

Psychic Powers: Psychic Barrage:

...

Only one Psychic Barrage is 'fired', regardless of the number of psykers in the squad. All psykers in the same unit are treated as a single psyker for the purpose of Psychic tests, etc, and use their own Leadership value, not that of any attached characters.

 

From context, it's fairly obvious the "single psyker" apply only to using the Psychic Barrage. It got no meaning outside of it. So how many psykers are in a 12-psyker warband? 12 pyskers.

 

To me the important part of the rule is : "etc".

I understood it as : "for any rules regarding Psyker".

I may be wrong, but it was already ruled this way 'at least for GK squad) in Codex:DH and consecutive FAQ. So unless It's FAQued differently, if it ever get FAQued, that's how I'll play it.

 

Again context. If "blah blah" is listed under a topic, it only apply to that topic.

 

Here's a silly example:

 

RAW: Codex: Space Marine pg 57 "If the deep strike attempt [Librarian with a unit] scatters and a double is rolled, one member of the unit ... [is] removed as casualty."

 

Pretty clear that whenever a librarian ds with a unit, that one model get removed as casualty on a double. Right?

 

Of course not. This rule is quoted out of context. The full context is Librarian Psychic Power: Gate of Infinity. "Blah blah blah. If the deep strike attempt ... blah blah." Pretty clear this only apply within the context of using Gate of Infinity.

 

The "treated as a single psyker" is the same. It is listed under Psychic Power: Psychic Barrage, thus only have meaing within Psychic Barrage.

 

it get +1 strength and -1 AP for each additional Psyker with a capital letter meaning not just a model with psychic powers but the actual henchmen called Psykers. I must say its odd that the Psykers lack the psyker special rule that other codices seem to have for their psykers.

So perhaps they don't count as psykers at all.

 

Well, Animus Speculum

For every Psyker within 12"

 

"Psyker", capital P, used in Psychic Barrage. "Psyker", capital P, used in Animus Speculum. Look like a duck. Quack like a duck. Must be a duck.

 

Who's on first? The Psyker is not a Psyker, don't count as Psyker, because it doesn't have Psyker in the special rule. But its name is Pysker. Call it Psyker. No, not that Psyker. Just this Psyker. What's on second?

[Something Wycked]

"Psyker", capital P, used in Psychic Barrage. "Psyker", capital P, used in Animus Speculum. Look like a duck. Quack like a duck. Must be a duck.

 

Who's on first? The Psyker is not a Psyker, don't count as Psyker, because it doesn't have Psyker in the special rule. But its name is Pysker. Call it Psyker. No, not that Psyker. Just this Psyker. What's on second?

And the Chaos Daemon Prince isn't a Daemon either; does not have Daemon in the unit entry, only the unit name. Welcome to the 40k RAW vs RAI debate! lol

[DeathKorpsman]

Of further interest with this particular henchman, consider that not only does GW use capital and lower case (P)psyker in various books, they use it in this henchman's own entry. Under the psychic attack italicized rules, it is upper case, while in the additional rules text it is lower. So if you attach a GK character or Inquisitor with psychic powers, which rules apply to which types? Do the attached characters improve the profile of the attack? Alternately, do attached characters suffer Perils if the (P)psyker Henchmen do, or count for drawing LOS with targeting? Logically, it should be one or the other, depending on a ruling about which use or lack of capitalization designates the name of the Henchmen vs. the name of the special rule. Clearly IC's attached to the unit use their own Ld, while the (P)psyker Henchmen use theirs, but that is definitively specified. The other two alternate meanings I list are not. My mind is buzzing with barely contained rule inconsistency madness.

[the jeske]

From context, it's fairly obvious the "single psyker" apply only to using the Psychic Barrage. It got no meaning outside of it. So how many psykers are in a 12-psyker warband? 12 pyskers.

it is worded like that because you have more then just units that are psykers in GK army . If the rule said psyker and you had a librarian or a GM in the unit while using the psychic power , then you would get double the number of barrage . RAW not broken , all is fine.

[Grey Mage]

RAW: "All psykers in the same unit are treated as a single psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests, etc.

 

To lend more credence, quote Brotherhood of Pyskers "The unit [Grey Knights] counts as a single psyker"

 

So one concludes that RAW, a unit of 12 psykers counts as only 1 psyker for the Culexus weapon.

 

But this is wrong. When quoting a rule, it must be in context. For example, one can't quote a rule in close combat, then say it apply to shooting. Pretty obvious there.

Brotherhood of Psyckers says the whole squad counts as a single psycker.

 

It doesnt say for the purposes of psychic tests or anything else, just very simply that the whole unit is a single psycker for all purposes.

 

So no, this doesnt work.

[CheezeFezt]

Brotherhood of Psyckers says the whole squad counts as a single psycker.

 

It doesnt say for the purposes of psychic tests or anything else, just very simply that the whole unit is a single psycker for all purposes.

 

So no, this doesnt work.

 

Brotherhood of Psyker isn't a psychic power that needs to be use for its effect to take place. It's a rule that's always in effect. Since its rule is always in effect, the single psyker rule is always in effect.

 

Psychic Barrage need to be use to be in effect. So if it's not use, its rule isn't in effect.

 

Another way of saying this is this: if you read a statement, would that statement be universal, always in effect, without regard to context?

 

Here's another example:

Codex: Space Marine, p 57

Move Through Cover (Ironclad only)

 

Would you then claim Move Through Cover rules is available only to Ironclad and nobody else? RAW clearly say "Ironclad only."

[Gentlemanloser]

How many Psykers can you fit in 12" around a Culuxes?

 

Coteaz + Psykers + Culuxes = IWIN Animus Speculum

 

(Getting even more silly, if you look at the rules for the Animus Speculum, it mentions for every 'Psyker', well that references one specific unit in the book, so can *only* work with the Psyker henchmen. :D A unit of Grey Knights isn't a 'Psyker', becuase that's another unit. If only they had called them 'Rogue Psykers' or some such... lol)

 

Edit: Do Psykers count as being within 12" of a Culuxes if they are embarked in a Rhino or Chimera? Stick the Culuxes in a Rhino/chimera himself and measure the 12" form the transports hull. More space to git *more* Pskyers around him.

 

And he's still able to shoot from the fire point.

[DeathKorpsman]

Brotherhood of Psyckers says the whole squad counts as a single psycker.

 

It doesnt say for the purposes of psychic tests or anything else, just very simply that the whole unit is a single psycker for all purposes.

 

So no, this doesnt work.

 

Brotherhood of Psyker isn't a psychic power that needs to be use for its effect to take place. It's a rule that's always in effect. Since its rule is always in effect, the single psyker rule is always in effect.

 

Psychic Barrage need to be use to be in effect. So if it's not use, the rule isn't in effect.

 

See my example with the Librarian's Gate of Infinity.

 

Using your logic, Psyker Henchmen aren't psykers (unit type) at all unless they are using their Psychic Barrage power, in which case they are 1 psyker (unit type) for psychic tests. If they aren't attempting to use their psychic shooting attack, their rules don't include a provision for them being psykers. They lack the Psyker(unit type) special rule entirely, which I admit is odd, though it might be intentional to prevent people trying to juice a Culexus in order to have it do things it wasn't intended to do, i.e. take advantage of lesser psykers in order to fire a murder-laser-disco-inferno out to a measly 12". I'm not sure what the big interest over it is really. I do find the wording of their rule curious because of the attached character weirdness I pointed out above, but aside from that they are fairly straightforward.

 

Totally agree Gentlemanloser about the naming convention. Perhaps 'Wyrd' would have been a useful name for them. No reference at all to the identically named special rule. I mean, is it that tough to keep things straight?

[Gentlemanloser]

Would you count the Psychic Pilots of a Rhino as more Psykers for the Culuxes? So stick him in a Rhino, instant +2 (how many pilots does a Rhino have?).

 

Edit: the Psyker Henchmen don't have any rules that note them as being Psykers. But they do have a Psychic Power. All GK vehicles have at least one Psychic Power.

 

So load up 12 Psyker henchmen in a Land Raider, for MOAR Psykers aorund the Rhino riding Culuxes.

 

HQ: Coteaz

Elite: Culuxes

Troop: Psyker x12, Rhino

Troop: Psyker x12, Rhino

Heavy: LRR

Heavy LRR

 

Total: 1,045

 

Stick the Culuxes in a Rhino, the Psykers in the LRR and Coteaz in the other Rhino.

 

That's 29 Psykers easily within 12" of the Culuxes' Rhino. Giving him a S5, AP1, Assault 60 weapon.

 

Win?

 

Edit: Oh BS8, or 10 if you target a unit with a Psyker...

[number6]

I feel like many of the rules arguments that simply aren't going away are because people are purposefully trying to be obtuse and abusive of the rules even when the intent is crystal clear. <_<

 

Dreadknight Nemesis Doomfists, Lord of Formosa and Warbands, and now this? Le sigh. :(

 

Do Pyskers have the Psyker special rule? No. Ergo, no Psyker model counts as a Psyker for rules purposes.

 

That sorted, do Psyker models count as Psykers in any other way? Yes, as described by their Psychic Barrage rule. Where it states, in no uncertain terms, that an entire unit of Pysker models is treated as a single Psyker "for the purposes of Psychic tests, etc.". That "etc." is the key bit. It covers ... EVERYTHING. Unless anybody can tell me what can possibly, rationally be left out of "etc.", the only logical conclusion is that it is all-inclusive.

 

Which means that entire units of Psykers never count as more than 1 Psyker. Ever.

 

Job done. Let's move on.

[FerociousBeast]

number6, you seem to assume that whatever position you personally hold is "obvious", and if someone disagrees, it's because they're willfully obtuse.

 

In both the Lord of Formosa case and this case, there are counter arguments that are very compelling. To limit my argument to the topic of this particular thread, what is the intent of the Culexus's weapon? It has improved capabilities for each psyker within 12". Is a psyker in the Henchmen band a Psyker? Well, yes, it's obviously a psyker by the fluff, and it MIGHT be a psyker by the rules. If the Culexus were to face off against a 12-psyker henchman band in a BL novel, I'm quite certain that his Animus Speculum would be sparking and fizzing with immense power.

 

I suspect strongly that the real reason you are poo-pooing those you disagree with for being obtuse and abusive is because the psyker is so darn cheap and so ridiculously powerful in conjunction with the Culexus, and you don't want GW to have fouled up so obviously. Whatever the case, it is quite clear that a very strong argument can be made that Henchman Psykers are, in fact, Psykers, and that therefore those you disagree with are neither necessarily obtuse nor abusive.

[number6]

What do Black Library novels have to do with anything? :P

 

If you feel your counterargument is better than my argument, let's hear it. I laid out where you have to do it based on the actual rules text. You must assert, within the rules (and not a proposed non-existent Black Library novel) either where it states that individual Psyker henchman models each count as individual Pyskers. OR you must tell me where the "etc." fails to cover a situation in which one could plausibly start counting individual Psyker henchman as individual Pyskers in their own right.

 

Break my argument apart in either of those two places and your interpretation will stand the test of logic and the rules. But fail to do so, and your argument holds no merit.

[Gentlemanloser]

Mordrak doesn't have "Brotherhood of Psykers", or any rule stating he's a Psyker.

 

So I guess he's not?

 

Even though he has two Psychic Powers.

 

What rule or unit type makes you a Psyker?

 

"Psychic Pilot" only applies to Psychic Tests and Hood rolls (and explains how perils work). Are GK Vehicles Psykers? Or only when they try to use Fortitude?

[number6]

Mordrak doesn't have "Brotherhood of Psykers", or any rule stating he's a Psyker.

 

So I guess he's not?

 

Even though he has two Psychic Powers.

 

What rule or unit type makes you a Psyker?

Mordrak would be a psyker under the 2nd condition I mentioned: by any other rules means. If he has psychic powers that require a psychic test to pass, then he is ipso facto a psyker.

 

"Psychic Pilot" only applies to Psychic Tests and Hood rolls (and explains how perils work). Are GK Vehicles Psykers? Or only when they try to use Fortitude?

Psychic Pilot says that the model is treated a psyker.

[Gentlemanloser]

>_<

 

self faceplam! Sorry!

 

My 'dex was in my army case, so I was going by the PDF, which I now discover is woefully incorrect! lol!

 

Not only does Psychic Pilot state they are Psykers, but Mordrak while not having 'Brotherhood of Psykers' has the special rule 'Psyker (Mastery level)'.

 

The Psyker (henchmen) don't have any similar special rule, and *should* have been given Psyker (Mastery level 1) - Edit: Or a version of Brotherhood...

 

Currently, they can't use thier shooting attack, as they aren't Psykers and don't have a mastery level (meaning they can cast zero powers per turn).

 

Heh.

 

Edit: Hmmmm... Although Mastery Levels does say it applies to Characters, and the Psykers aren't Characters.

 

Still they don't have *any* sort of Psyker special rules, and aren't Psykers.

 

So, I feel it's one or the other really. Either each individual Psyker is a Psyker, and can use thier Shooting attack as described. Or none of the Psykers are Psykers, and can't use thier shooting attack at all...

[FerociousBeast]

My argument is that this:

 

I feel like many of the rules arguments that simply aren't going away are because people are purposefully trying to be obtuse and abusive of the rules even when the intent is crystal clear.

...is wrong, and that you are doing the participants of this board a disservice by asserting it.

[number6]

Still they don't have *any* sort of Psyker special rules, and aren't Psykers.

 

So, I feel it's one or the other really. Either each individual Psyker is a Psyker, and can use thier Shooting attack as described. Or none of the Psykers are Psykers, and can't use thier shooting attack at all...

No no no! ;) Read the entire rule for Psychic Barrage. It describes how they get to use their shooting attack, and how the entire unit always counts as a single psyker.

 

@FerociousBeast: I described how I am willing to continue debating the rule, and how you can crack it open. But there's no debate unless you're willing to participate, too.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

If we're going by fluff, then a single Grand Master would beat a 1750 army on on his own, probably by looking at it. Thankfully M.W stopped before that.

[Gentlemanloser]

No no no! Read the entire rule for Psychic Barrage. It describes how they get to use their shooting attack, and how the entire unit always counts as a single psyker.

 

Much like the NDK can't use a PT, you can master craft a Template Weapon, or the Brotherhood Champion can purchase Didgital Wepaons for a Weapon that already rerolls all wounds, the Psykers have access to a Psychic Shooting attack they cannot use.

 

As none of them are Psykers.

 

Now, obviously, the intent is that they are all Psykers, and can all use thier Psychic Shooting attack. Much like the intent is obviously that the NDK only moves like Jump Infantry (and can use the Interceptor *only* Personal Teleporter). But until they get access to the 'Psyker' special rule, unfortunately, they have something they cannot use. ;)

 

And if they are all made Psykers, I assume they'll be given a version of the Brotherhood special rule so that in all instances they only count as a single Psyker, as per thier Psychic Barrage rules. I can only hope they don't get errated to Special Rule: Psyker (Mastery Level 1). Which would mean they all count for the animus speculum and a squad of 12 in a LRR would increase the Culuxes wepaon by +26.

 

Come on GW, bring out the FAQ already. This Codex is littered with rubbish and inconsitencies that desperately needs to be tidied up. ;)

 

Edit: The Grey Knight Codex uses a distinct 'Psyker' special rule, which the 'Psyker Mastery Levels' rule references;

 

shown in brackets after the Psker special rule

 

All the Psykers in the Codex correctly have either the Pskyer Special rule (with the additional Mastery Level informaiton after), or have the Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rule. Denoting all the units as Psykers.

 

Unfortunately the henchmen missed out on this, and have neither of the three special rules in the codex to denote Psyker status. :(

[number6]

@Gentlemanloser: The rule couldn't be clearer. In fact, it reads almost exactly like Brotherhood of Psykers.

All psykers in the unit are treated as a single psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests, etc....

Right there in black and white it says that units are treated as a single psyker. That single psyker takes psychic tests in order to use its one psychic shooting attack power: psychic barrage.

 

This is not complicated! ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not a special rule Number 6. :)

 

It's the rules on how to use thier Psychic Shooting attack. Which they can't use, not being Psykers. Just another oversight in the muddy rules of the new Dex.

 

(I'd never play it that way, just as I'd never make a NDK with a PT JI)

 

Edit: Just to clarify the difference, as I said above, all other Psyker sin the Codex correctly have a Special Rule that defines them as a Pskyer. The Psyker Henchmen lack this.