A Warband of 12 psykers is 12 psykers (see Culexus)

[Grey Mage]

Of course, if were going to debating this part, Id say that since they dont have the special rule "psyker' they cant use their psychic power as theres no rules provided allowing them too. Id further argue that since they cant cast psychic powers they cant be counted for the assassin....

 

This is factually incorrect. Please consult the BRB section regarding Psykers:

 

Psykers are powerful warriors gifted with awesome mental powers, which enable them to channel the baleful energy of the Warp.

 

...

 

Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. To use a psychic power the psyker must pass a Psychic test, which is a normal leadership test.

Actually, the BRB states:

 

The following are general rules on how psychic powers are employed. Exceptions to these rules are covered in the codexes.

 

And C:GK states:

Codex: Grey Knights uses mastery levels, shown in brackets after the Psyker special rule, to determine how many psychic powers a character can use each turn.

 

Psykers dont have the Psyker special rule- so they cant use any psychic powers. This means that according to the BRB they arent psykers either, as all psykers can cast psychic powers....

 

Good luck finding a TO that will let a Culexis get buffed from a squad that doesnt have any psychic powers, or an opponent who wont say 'wait a moment, no'.

[Inquisitor Apropos]

Apropos' logic was clear. Yours wasn't. :P

 

I emphasized your last sentence because you yourself are describing why what you're arguing makes no sense. You have to invent a new concept for the game in order for it work. Whereas the simpler solution is to just accept that the intention of the rule -- written, as it is, in the mirror image of Brotherhood of Psykers -- is what it patently appears to be.

 

 

So, thanks for the compliment. :(

 

However, I have to respectfully disagree on your choice of Brotherhood of Psykers as the closest analog. To me, the henchmen Psykers are clearly a poor man's Psyker Battle Squad, from Codex: Imperial Guard. The cumulative nature of the Psychic power, the single Psychic test, and the heavier than normal consequences for Perils of the Warp are all there. They can even take Chimeras. It actually looks like somebody tried to re-write Psyker Battle Squads from memory, but missed some of the small but pivotal details.

 

Unfortunately, that part is all opinion and interpretation at this point. We won't know either way until they FAQ it, and even then we may never be sure. Sometime before Christmas, if we're lucky.

[Inquisitor Apropos]

Of course, if were going to debating this part, Id say that since they dont have the special rule "psyker' they cant use their psychic power as theres no rules provided allowing them too. Id further argue that since they cant cast psychic powers they cant be counted for the assassin....

 

This is factually incorrect. Please consult the BRB section regarding Psykers:

 

Psykers are powerful warriors gifted with awesome mental powers, which enable them to channel the baleful energy of the Warp.

 

...

 

Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. To use a psychic power the psyker must pass a Psychic test, which is a normal leadership test.

Actually, the BRB states:

 

The following are general rules on how psychic powers are employed. Exceptions to these rules are covered in the codexes.

 

And C:GK states:

Codex: Grey Knights uses mastery levels, shown in brackets after the Psyker special rule, to determine how many psychic powers a character can use each turn.

 

Psykers dont have the Psyker special rule- so they cant use any psychic powers. This means that according to the BRB they arent psykers either, as all psykers can cast psychic powers....

 

Good luck finding a TO that will let a Culexis get buffed from a squad that doesnt have any psychic powers, or an opponent who wont say 'wait a moment, no'.

 

Since I find this argument to be particularly rules-lawery, I feel no shame in countering with a semantic argument. I'll even follow it up with a evidence.

 

Codex: Grey Knights uses mastery levels, shown in brackets after the Psyker special rule, to determine how many psychic powers a character can use each turn.

 

As Psyker henchmen are not characters this rule does not apply to them.

 

By your logic, Grey Knights squads (be they Paladin, Purifier, or other) cannot cast psychic powers, despite having Brotherhood of Psykers. By casting Mastery Levels as an exclusive rule, you forbid anything without that rule from casting, regardless of any other rules that may be involved. Because they do not ALSO have "Psyker (Mastery Level 1)", no model that is a Psyker by any other means can cast. Goodbye Hammerhand.

 

Edit-dendum:

 

Good luck finding a TO that will let a Culexis get buffed from a squad that doesnt have any psychic powers, or an opponent who wont say 'wait a moment, no'.

 

Actually, the Animus Speculum doesn't differentiate between models with the 'psyker' special rule and models that happen to be named simply 'psyker'. It simply states:

For every Psker within 12" of the Culexis Assassin, add +1 to the animus speculum's Assault value.

 

So, whether you beleive henchman 'Psykers' can cast psychic powers or not, he still gets the bonus because that's what they are named.

[number6]

However, I have to respectfully disagree on your choice of Brotherhood of Psykers as the closest analog. To me, the henchmen Psykers are clearly a poor man's Psyker Battle Squad, from Codex: Imperial Guard.

It was the closest analog in the GK codex, and one I feel is apt.

 

But yes, clearly they're all but exactly like IG Psyker Battle Squads, too. :)

 

As Psyker henchmen are not characters this rule does not apply to them.

 

By your logic, Grey Knights squads (be they Paladin, Purifier, or other) cannot cast psychic powers, despite having Brotherhood of Psykers. By casting Mastery Levels as an exclusive rule, you forbid anything without that rule from casting, regardless of any other rules that may be involved. Because they do not ALSO have "Psyker (Mastery Level 1)", no model that is a Psyker by any other means can cast. Goodbye Hammerhand.

:) Exactly right.

 

Sometimes, rules really do have a clear intent. That we should be following. ;)

[CheezeFezt]

Simpler >> complicated. Occam's Razor.

 

Occam's Razor is crap. Flat earth is better than general relativity because it's simpler?

 

In no other case that I can think of do the rules of a Psychic Power have effect on the unit when the Psychic Power is not being used.

I emphasized your last sentence because you yourself are describing why what you're arguing makes no sense. You have to invent a new concept for the game in order for it work.

 

Huh? A new concept for the game? Guess you didn't read the Original Post.

 

I'll re-state. Rules must be applied within context. Context of this rule is under Psychic Barrage, which is a shooting psychic power. You apply the rules for shooting when you use it. That is a new concept???

 

Whereas the simpler solution is to just accept that the intention of the rule -- written, as it is, in the mirror image of Brotherhood of Psykers -- is what it patently appears to be.

 

The intention is clear? How much clearer does it needs to be to describe how the psychic power works. It's only muddy because you chose to take one part of one sentence out of context. You take "ETC" out of context ("ETC" is nestled between taking a psychic test and using its own leadership for said test). In other word, "ETC" is within the context of using a psychic power. The 2nd context is the sentence "treated as a single pysker for the purpose of..." nestled between characteristic of the psychic power (how many are shot, how/where to measure LOS, how to apply failed pyschic test).

 

What is clear what the intention is, when the unit shoot Psychic Barrage, they take ONE psychic test, not one per model.

 

And going with your Occam's razor. This is simple. Unit take one psychic test when shooting Psychic Barrage.

 

This is not simple. Under all the other crazy scenario, apply "ETC" to imply they're one psyker. Say for the purpose of determining how many slot are taken up in a chimera.

 

Give it up. Eventually, this will be FAQ'd to be exactly what the rules already say they are. We all know this. Why make such a painful hullabaloo out of it now? How 'bout we just play the game? This particular rules kerfuffle is only as big as you make it out to be. There are definitely bigger rules holes in the codex than this.

 

I seriously doubt GW will FAQ. The blokes on the other side of the pond don't want to pander to us yank asinine obsession with quest for clarity.

[Gentlemanloser]

No, it doesn't. Page number and reference, please, to prove me wrong or clarify your argument.

 

As above, it's from Mstery Levels.

 

shown in brackets after the Psyker special rule

 

Yes, Mastery Levels only apply to characters, and you'll note that all Psychic Charcaters in the Codex have the Special Rule. But, there are two other rules, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers, that all other Psychics in the Codex correctly have.

 

Bar the henchmen. Which have no special rule.

 

Psychic Pilot applies Mastery Levels and the Psychic Special Rule to specific psychic Vehicles. Brotherhood supplies the Psychic Special rule to units, and while it doesn't state "Mastery Level 1" (which it should, like the Pilot Rule), it explains the unit can only cast one per turn.

 

Both of these are included in every units Special Rules.

 

The Henchmen have neither.

 

The GK Codex specifically references a 'Psyker' Special rule, either thorugh Mastery Level, Brotherhood, or Pilot. Units without one of these three special rules, aren't Psychic, as they don't have the necessary special rule.

 

:ermm:

[KnowThyEnemy]

if they are not psychic, than how do they use a psychic power, called psychic barrage, that requires a successful psychic test to use and they suffer a PotW attack if they roll snake eyes or box cars? all the bold words are psyker specific. im not familiar with any non-psyker being able to do or suffer any of those. an example would be nice if you have them.

 

i think the previous mention of tiberious and other characters that don't actually have a "psyker" special rule is a valid point. are they not psyker because they don't have the rule? but they can still use psychic powers? the argument that psyker's aren't psykers is beyond thin. its like the daemon princes not being daemons argument. c'mon people, lets think a little

 

i think the more interesting argument is the use of "etc" and how it applies to counting each psyker. i think if they use the power together, suffer perils together and test together (which is what their rule says correct?), they should be treated for all gaming purposes as together, i.e. as 1 psyker. just like grey knights are all psykers but they test together and use the same power. the only difference there is there is a statement in their brotherhood of psykers rule stating the only the justicar/keeper/random gk suffer the effects of perils.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why can the NDK take a PT it can't use? Why can you Master Craft a Template Weapon? Why can the BC take Digital Weapons when he CC Weapon already rerolls all failed wounds?

[Grey Mage]

Since I find this argument to be particularly rules-lawery, I feel no shame in countering with a semantic argument. I'll even follow it up with a evidence.

 

Codex: Grey Knights uses mastery levels, shown in brackets after the Psyker special rule, to determine how many psychic powers a character can use each turn.

 

As Psyker henchmen are not characters this rule does not apply to them.

 

By your logic, Grey Knights squads (be they Paladin, Purifier, or other) cannot cast psychic powers, despite having Brotherhood of Psykers. By casting Mastery Levels as an exclusive rule, you forbid anything without that rule from casting, regardless of any other rules that may be involved. Because they do not ALSO have "Psyker (Mastery Level 1)", no model that is a Psyker by any other means can cast. Goodbye Hammerhand.

Sure, if you want to go into it from the point of veiw of a culexis getting to count 12 psykers from the warband, Im fine with saying not a single unit in your army- including said warband- can cast a psychic power unless they are a character.

 

I would have been more reasonable, and said the brotherhood of psyckers overrules that, but Im good with it this way.

[KnowThyEnemy]

Why can the NDK take a PT it can't use? Why can you Master Craft a Template Weapon? Why can the BC take Digital Weapons when he CC Weapon already rerolls all failed wounds?

since when can a NDK not use a PT? or are you refering to the silly "MC vs JI vs JMC" debate. i say silly because i believe people are looking too deep into that argument as well. i understand the whole RAW vs RAI issue, but seriously, GW has stated on numerous occasions that its rule set has holes and its not always written in a fool-proof way. you really think theyre just gonna say "ok you got us, you can't use a PT if your a dreadknight, we'll just take out those parts of the codex"? ;)

 

The master crafting of template weapons is an oversight clearly and i can see a ruling going either way. id like to see it have some effect (re rolling 1 to-wound would be reasonable) instead of being pointless, which brings me to your next statement

 

BC taking digital weapons...ok you got me :). the person who let that one slip should be hit in the face. UNLESS they decide to break their golden "no re-rolls of a re-roll" rule!!!!! IN WHICH CASE....i'll probably cry, because thats 1 rule that should never EVER be touched. im also a fan they got rid of the 3 saves in WHFB. Progress people, progress :lol:

[Seahawk]

GW has stated on numerous occasions that its rule set has holes and its not always written in a fool-proof way.

Perhaps true, but this codex is one of, if not THE most poorly written/thought out codex I've seen...ever.

[number6]

Perhaps true, but this codex is one of, if not THE most poorly written/thought out codex I've seen...ever.

Opinions will differ, but I think the SW codex has to take the cake as the worst-written codex. So many rules messed ups, they had to release -- and then RErelease -- a massive six page FAQ for it. (And then there's Fantasy, where Skaven might have to take the cake as the single worst-written set of rules for any of GW's game systems.)

 

Anyway, we all agree that the rules for the GK 'dex aren't airtight. What else is new? :rolleyes: Remember what company we're dealing with here. But to expand on what KnowThyEnemy said: Does anybody really think GW doesn't intend for units of Psyker henchman to count as single psykers? Be honest, now. Really? <_< The same can be said for Dreadknight Doomfists and Teleporters, Coteaz Troops Henchmen, etc.

 

I think the intent of all these rules is so clear that I am boggled as to why it's even worth discussing!

 

Rules written poorly? No argument there.

Rules confusing? No! This isn't pre-FAQ Space Wolves! :lol:

 

As for Champion digital weapons: that is a true head-scratcher. But it also proves my point: GW doesn't believe in copyeditors. We are required to do a little bit of common sense think-work if we want to play the game. That's reality, folks. Time to live in it.

[Gentlemanloser]

since when can a NDK not use a PT? or are you refering to the silly "MC vs JI vs JMC" debate.

 

Nope, the "Only useable by Interceptors" part of the PT rule.

 

I agree, it's clearly the intention that they are Psykers. And I'd hope that the class as a single one. And not individually.

 

But this won't be the first instance in the 'dex where due to bad writing a unit has, or can take something, they can't use...

 

Until Errat'd/FAQed, there a RAW case that the Henchmen are not Psykers. In any way. Barrage rule or not.

[Prathios]

Perhaps true, but this codex is one of, if not THE most poorly written/thought out codex I've seen...ever.

Opinions will differ, but I think the SW codex has to take the cake as the worst-written codex. So many rules messed ups, they had to release -- and then RErelease -- a massive six page FAQ for it. (And then there's Fantasy, where Skaven might have to take the cake as the single worst-written set of rules for any of GW's game systems.)

 

Anyway, we all agree that the rules for the GK 'dex aren't airtight. What else is new? :D Remember what company we're dealing with here. But to expand on what KnowThyEnemy said: Does anybody really think GW doesn't intend for units of Psyker henchman to count as single psykers? Be honest, now. Really? ;) The same can be said for Dreadknight Doomfists and Teleporters, Coteaz Troops Henchmen, etc.

 

I think the intent of all these rules is so clear that I am boggled as to why it's even worth discussing!

 

Rules written poorly? No argument there.

Rules confusing? No! This isn't pre-FAQ Space Wolves! :P

 

As for Champion digital weapons: that is a true head-scratcher. But it also proves my point: GW doesn't believe in copyeditors. We are required to do a little bit of common sense think-work if we want to play the game. That's reality, folks. Time to live in it.

 

Why oh why can't a company like Fantasy Flight buy out GW... oh what a wonderful world it would be.

[CheezeFezt]

i think the more interesting argument is the use of "etc" and how it applies to counting each psyker. i think if they use the power together, suffer perils together and test together (which is what their rule says correct?), they should be treated for all gaming purposes as together, i.e. as 1 psyker. just like grey knights are all psykers but they test together and use the same power. the only difference there is there is a statement in their brotherhood of psykers rule stating the only the justicar/keeper/random gk suffer the effects of perils.

 

First, the easier one. "ETC" is part of a context of a sentence describing how to use a psychic power (roll psychic test, use own leadership, not attached), which in turn is in context of an overarching Psychic Power: Psychic Barrage. Context is important, so you can't quote a rule out of context, then claim RAW. RAW is in the context of psychic barrage and that's all "etc" is.

 

Now to the intent. What does "ETC" refers to?

 

If you go by context, then etc is restricted to thing similar to rolling for psychic test and using own leadership. Some logical etc would be how psychic hood, aegis suit, reinforced aegis suit works with psychic barrage.

 

If you want to go out of context and say "ETC" refers to any usage that reference psyker, there'll be some mechanics issues. Say warband got hit with mindstrike missile. Missile touch 1 dude. Said dude take one PotW and fail. Other 11 dudes get sucked into warp too. I'm sure there'll be other crazy issues like this where only one model is affected, yet cuz of this etc and the other sentence in PB, all models get yanked. The flip side may occur, eg cases where you should count them as 12, yet count them as only 1. Yeah, I know the reason peep argue so hard is they don't like the Culexus rule. But if it turn out being 1 is an advantage to the warband, I'm sure the rule lawyers will be screaming bloody mary and say raw say they're 12.

 

Sure, if one argue that if they can only use a single psychic power, they should only count as one psyker. I'm ok with that. But Intent is impossible to determine. They could had intended that warband works like Psyker Battle Squad. Or they could had intended that warband works like Brotherhood of Psyker. Either one will work.

 

But one can't claim RAW that Psychic Barrage = single psyker for all gaming purpose. If you're going to quote, quote in context. It's clear what the context is--single psyker for the purpose of using psychic barrage. Every arguments against simply chose to ignore context.

 

 

Nope, the "Only useable by Interceptors" part of the PT rule.

 

So out of context. The page formatting show it's talking about 2 units, the Strike Squad and the Interceptor. Context say "Interceptor Only" is in the context of the rule being applicable to both SS/Int or just Int. "Work just like" means the predicates for "Personal Teleporter" for the Strike Squad is the same predicates for NDK.

 

As a side note, one of the biggest anal rule lawyer at our gaming area was playing NDK moves like JI, much like Tyrant with Wings. As a joke, I said RAW "Interceptor Only", so NDK can't use the PT. This anal rule lawyer then went on a loud rant about context. How the page structure is important. How the use of parenthesis is important. How the boldness of word and how formatting of paragraph are important. (I play NDK w/ PT like Tyrant with Wing. Once in a while, it's fun to poke at rule lawyers).

 

A little later in the game, my culexus with the warband psyker came out. He claims they're a single psyker. I used his argument (eg context is important, boldness is important, etc). And I asked him, "isn't the 2nd sentence within the context of Psychic Barrage based on all of your ranting.

 

His classic anal answer: I agrees that the 2nd sentence is physically listed under the Psychic Barrage section and that the 2nd sentence is physically nested between other rules regarding PB, but the 2nd sentence have nothing to do with PB.

 

Gotta love anal-retentive players.

[Noirceuil]

I don't understand why this simple rule has to be subject to so much debate. The GK units counting as 1 psyker is clear. The fact that each psyker henchman in a henchman unit is counted as 1 psyker, to me makes sense. So if a psyker henchman is part of a mixed henchman unit, that unit has 1 psyker. If there are 12 psykers in a henchman unit, then there are 12 psykers. For the purposes of counting psykers within 12" of the Animus Speculum, it should be simple. Don't over think it.

[Inquisitor Apropos]

@ Grey Mage:

 

Your insistence that Psykers cannot use their psychic power hardly sounds like the stance of a reasonable person. If you insisted on it in a friendly game, I would pick up my toys and find someone else to play with. If you insisted on it in a tournament setting, and the TO proved to be as unreasonable as you, I would pack up my toys and go home.

 

There's enough ambiguity on the rules of how many psykers they count as for any given purpose that I would be more than willing to roll off on whether it gives my Culexis +1 or +12 (assuming I fielded a squad of 12). But then again, I wouldn't base my entire strategy around Ultra-Shooty Culexis of Doom anyway. He's just one model, after all.

 

@ GentlemanLoser

 

You said yourself that Brotherhood of Psykers lacks a reference to Mastery Levels that you feel it should have. By extension, henchman Psykers lack a reference to any Psyker special rule that I feel that they should have. We both agree that they ought to be counted as psykers, even if we disagree on how many they may count as. We can roll off on that, or let the TO make the call, at least until it gets FAQd. Like I said, not a big deal.

 

The way I see it, the 'Psyker (Mastery Level x)' rule is not a replacement for the 'Psyker' special rule you see slung around in most books. It's a new special rule that encompases the characteristics of the 'Psyker' special rule and adds to it. Just like Tigurius's 'Master Psyker' isn't the same as the 'Psyker' rule, and 'And They Shall Know No Fear' is different from 'Fearless', 'Psyker (Mastery Level x)' is distinct from plain old 'Psyker'.

 

Also, the reference Mastery Levels in the Psychic Pilot entry does not give this special rule to the vehicle. It says it "...is treated as being a Psyker (Mastery Level 1) and Ld 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and Psychic hoods." (C:GK pg 21). So, no bonus Culexis shots, no Psyocculum shenanigans, no anti-psyker missiles, etc. It's not a Psyker, it just has a power that it can use, and can be hooded, in turn.

 

I suppose if there were some sort of wargear that forced a 'model' (without specifying a Psyker) to take a 'Psychic test' as opposed to a Leadership test, that could do some funky things to a vehicle with Psychic Pilot. I don't know of anything that DOES that, but I don't know all of the books by heart, and only own about half of them.

 

And finally, addressing Dreadknights and Personal Teleporters. The Dreadknight entry says "This works just like the Interceptor Squad personal teleporter (page 28)." (C:GK pg 94). The rules for Personal Teleporters state "Personal Teleporters (Interceptor Squads only): Units with..." (C:GK p 28) The only other place I can recall seeing that sort of caveat is in Codex: Imperial Guard, where it's used to exclude the Overseer from being counted as a Psyker. I'll pull up the exact example when I can find it.

*insert example here*

When you parse the whole thing, to me it read as "This is how this piece of wargear works for Interceptor Squads" or possibly "Only interceptor squads get this wargear, and this is how it works" with the Dreadknight version saying "Dreadknights can have one, and it works just like it does for Interceptor Squads".

 

It opens up an interesting conundrum. Codex trumps BRB, and specific trumps general, but does specific trump specific, and if so, how do you decide priority? Since it's GW, we can't just go with the most logical straight forward answer (namely, if they didn't want you to have it, they wouldn't give you the option). So, we must instead turn to the dreaded 'precedent'.

 

I'll go ahead and cite the Nob Shoota/Choppa/Powaklaw ruling from the Ork FAQ. It ruled that the chronology in the book matters for order of operations. So, in the case of specific trumping specific, 'later specific' trumps 'earlier specific'. By this chain of reasoning, the Dreadknight's ability to take it overules the prohibition against any one else taking it. One could also argue that the Dreadknight's 'I can' is more specific than the Interceptor's 'nobody else can', though that's splitting hairs pretty fine. :unsure:

 

@ Number 6

 

Thanks for reminding us all to act like mature adults, or at least not like petulant children, and keeping things light, as this is toy soldiers, and not Serious Bussiness.

[Inquisitor Apropos]

Nope, the "Only useable by Interceptors" part of the PT rule.

The page formatting show it's talking about 2 units, the Strike Squad and the Interceptor. Context say "Interceptor Only" is in the context of the rule being applicable to both SS/Int or just Int.

 

How did I miss that? I went and did this whole ciruitous logical route to get to the same conclusion, when the answer was already right there on the page. C'est la vie, I suppose. :unsure:

[Gentlemanloser]

You said yourself that Brotherhood of Psykers lacks a reference to Mastery Levels that you feel it should have.

 

Yes, instead of the better way the Pilot rule works, they just said "counts as a single psyker" (Edit: Ment to say can cast a single power a turn...). Same deal, different wording. It would have been tidier and consistent to say "Psyker (Mastery Level 1)".

 

The way I see it, the 'Psyker (Mastery Level x)' rule is not a replacement for the 'Psyker' special rule you see slung around in most books. It's a new special rule that encompases the characteristics of the 'Psyker' special rule and adds to it. Just like Tigurius's 'Master Psyker' isn't the same as the 'Psyker' rule, and 'And They Shall Know No Fear' is different from 'Fearless', 'Psyker (Mastery Level x)' is distinct from plain old 'Psyker'.

 

The Mastery Level rule explains this. Mastery level is additional information, after the 'Psyker' Special rule.

 

Also, the reference Mastery Levels in the Psychic Pilot entry does not give this special rule to the vehicle. It says it "...is treated as being a Psyker (Mastery Level 1) and Ld 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and Psychic hoods." (C:GK pg 21). So, no bonus Culexis shots, no Psyocculum shenanigans, no anti-psyker missiles, etc. It's not a Psyker, it just has a power that it can use, and can be hooded, in turn.

 

You cannot have a Mastery Level if you don't have the 'Psyker' special rule. All GK Vehicles have Psychic Pilot, which in turn gives them both the Psyker special rule and Mastery Level 1.

 

So the Culuxes gets +1 (is it? can't be bothered to get the 'dex out of my case, the leak gives +2 B) ) for each GK vehilce within 12".

[Inquisitor Apropos]

Also, the reference Mastery Levels in the Psychic Pilot entry does not give this special rule to the vehicle. It says it "...is treated as being a Psyker (Mastery Level 1) and Ld 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and Psychic hoods." (C:GK pg 21). So, no bonus Culexis shots, no Psyocculum shenanigans, no anti-psyker missiles, etc. It's not a Psyker, it just has a power that it can use, and can be hooded, in turn.

 

You cannot have a Mastery Level if you don't have the 'Psyker' special rule. All GK Vehicles have Psychic Pilot, which in turn gives them both the Psyker special rule and Mastery Level 1.

 

So the Culuxes gets +1 (is it? can't be bothered to get the 'dex out of my case, the leak gives +2 :cuss ) for each GK vehilce within 12".

 

I went ahead and bolded for emphasis. I'm sorry but you are mistaken, good sir. It does not have the Psyker special rule, or any Mastery Levels. It is counted as a Psyker (Mastery Level 1) for two specific purposes, and no others. I believe this is a specific and intentional design decision to protect vehicle units from the ramifications of wacky anti-Psyker wargear. 'Treated as' isn't 'is'. Otherwise no one would ever grow up, as no matter how mature you get your mom will always treat you like a kid.

[Grey Mage]

@ Grey Mage:

 

Your insistence that Psykers cannot use their psychic power hardly sounds like the stance of a reasonable person. If you insisted on it in a friendly game, I would pick up my toys and find someone else to play with. If you insisted on it in a tournament setting, and the TO proved to be as unreasonable as you, I would pack up my toys and go home.

 

There's enough ambiguity on the rules of how many psykers they count as for any given purpose that I would be more than willing to roll off on whether it gives my Culexis +1 or +12 (assuming I fielded a squad of 12). But then again, I wouldn't base my entire strategy around Ultra-Shooty Culexis of Doom anyway. He's just one model, after all.

 

And I would do much the same if my opponent insisted his models without the psyker rule on their profile should be considered 12 psyckers instead of the more reasonable 1. Every other model that can cast a psychic power in this game, every other model that counts as a psyker, has that rule. Why should this be different, and why in the context of a grey area do you feel that the maximum benefit should be awarded to the assassin?

[Prathios]

@ Grey Mage:

 

Your insistence that Psykers cannot use their psychic power hardly sounds like the stance of a reasonable person. If you insisted on it in a friendly game, I would pick up my toys and find someone else to play with. If you insisted on it in a tournament setting, and the TO proved to be as unreasonable as you, I would pack up my toys and go home.

 

There's enough ambiguity on the rules of how many psykers they count as for any given purpose that I would be more than willing to roll off on whether it gives my Culexis +1 or +12 (assuming I fielded a squad of 12). But then again, I wouldn't base my entire strategy around Ultra-Shooty Culexis of Doom anyway. He's just one model, after all.

 

And I would do much the same if my opponent insisted his models without the psyker rule on their profile should be considered 12 psyckers instead of the more reasonable 1. Every other model that can cast a psychic power in this game, every other model that counts as a psyker, has that rule. Why should this be different, and why in the context of a grey area do you feel that the maximum benefit should be awarded to the assassin?

 

Admittedly I'm not arguing with you GM, but were I to have a fun "house ruled" game that was based around sticking to the fluff... the maximum benefit to the assassin would be overwhelming, like fish in a barrel. I hate that the game has to set its rules up in such a way that it messes with the back story, but oh well. I think it would be fairly entertaining to watch a Culexus run into the middle of a squad of psykers; the results would be predictably messy. Though the idea of using a squad of these to back up a Culexus is as unfluffy as they get. Culexus are not supported by psykers, they kill them.

[Grey Mage]

Oh, I fully expect to see one of these parked near any Seer Councils you see in apocalypse. I myself can throw down 37 Psykers in a single small formation.... flank marching in, with an assault 36 gun?

 

I wont, I dont even own the model, but I see the attraction.

[Gentlemanloser]

Two seperate statements, seperated by the 'and'.

 

is treated as being a Psyker (Mastery Level 1)

 

and Ld 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and Psychic hoods.

 

GK Vehicles are Psykers. They can use 1 power per turn. The Culuxes gets +1 for every GK vehicles within 12".

 

Edit: Hahahaha, nah, I can't carry on with that reasoning. :P

[Inquisitor Apropos]

Every other model that can cast a psychic power in this game, every other model that counts as a psyker, has that rule.

 

As I pointed out earlier, that is not actually true.

 

Tigurius, Cheif Librarian of the Ultramarines, does not have the Psyker special rule. He has a rule called 'Master Psyker' which gives him access to the complete list of Space Marine Psychic powers, but makes absolutely no mention of him being a Psyker under the rules.

 

Eldrad Ulthran, Farseer of Ulthwé does not have the Psyker special rule. Neither do Eldar Farseers or Warlocks, though they do have the rules 'Psychic Powers' and 'Warlock Powers' respectively. Eldrad doesn't even have that rule. He just has a list of Psychic powers that he has access to, and a staff that lets him cast up to 3 a turn.

 

I would also point out that the Grey Knights Codex itself has units that are explicitely not Psykers, but have the ability to cast Psychic powers. Unless you beleive Eldrad isn't a Psyker but can still cast, it's kinda a first for the game. The Psychic Pilot rule says the vehicle "...is treated as being a Psyker (Mastery Level 1) and Ld 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and Psychic hoods." (C:GK pg 21).

 

As I was just discussing with Gentlemanloser, it is 'treated as' for 2 specific purposes, and no others. Otherwise it suffers shenanigans from Psyoculums, Mindstrike Missiles, the Crucible of Malediction, and other such 'and psykers suffer...'/'target an enemy psyker and...' which was not designed with Psyker Transport Vehicles (or even things with AV instead of wounds) in mind. What happens in a game of GK vs GK, when a unit of Nemesis weapons punches that tank full of dudes, and as a Psyker it gets 'removed as a casualty'? :huh: Fortunately, it's not actually a Psyker so we don't have to deal with that problem.

 

Edit: typo