A Warband of 12 psykers is 12 psykers (see Culexus)

[Grey Mage]

You dont have to deal with it because vehicles are never casualties, not because its not a psyker. Mindstrike missiles work just fine- as we know that a perils attack on a vehicle is resolved as a glancing hit, wich would be in addition to its other affects as per the rules for the missiles.

 

Why? Because the rule says straight up 'is treated as a psyker' AND leadership 10 for the purposes of tests and hoods. Two seperate things joined by a conjunction. The vehicles are psykers, and I would have no problem giving a culexis close to a GK squad in a GK Rhino +2 shots.

 

The rule you quoted as being wrong- 'Psychic Powers', you should read it- Farseers, including eldrad, have rules that say 'this unit is a psyker'. Same with "Warlock Powers". So that example is fallacious in regards to your argument.

 

As for Tigurius, if you wanted to press RAW hard enough its the hood of hellfire that lets him cast any of the psychic powers he knows. He doesnt have to be a psyker to use them because of his wargear, RAW. Of course, with his usual intellegence issues matt ward listed him as master psyker, instead of 'psyker' and got things confusing.... but it doesnt matter for this debate- tigurius functions in RAW and RAI equally well.

 

So, got any other examples? Because these dont hold up.

[Inquisitor Apropos]

The rule you quoted as being wrong- 'Psychic Powers', you should read it- Farseers, including eldrad, have rules that say 'this unit is a psyker'. Same with "Warlock Powers". So that example is fallacious in regards to your argument.

 

As for Tigurius, if you wanted to press RAW hard enough its the hood of hellfire that lets him cast any of the psychic powers he knows. He doesnt have to be a psyker to use them because of his wargear, RAW. Of course, with his usual intellegence issues matt ward listed him as master psyker, instead of 'psyker' and got things confusing.... but it doesnt matter for this debate- tigurius functions in RAW and RAI equally well.

 

So, got any other examples? Because these dont hold up.

 

 

That was actually my point, in response to your statement. I never claimed that any rules were wrong. I said that none of those rules were the 'Psyker' special rule.

 

Every other model that can cast a psychic power in this game, every other model that counts as a psyker, has that rule.

 

The models that I cited are either Psykers that do not have the 'Psyker' special rule, or they are models that explicitely have the ability to cast psychic powers without being Psykers (albeit, through particularly heavy handed use of RAW).

[Grey Mage]

Only one of them has that issue- tigurius. All the Eldar units are described as having the Psyker rule, as are GK vehicles.

[Inquisitor Apropos]

Only one of them has that issue- tigurius. All the Eldar units are described as having the Psyker rule, as are GK vehicles.

 

I eagerly anticipate your citation of that assertion regarding the Eldar Codex. I will happily admit my mistake as soon as I can confirm it in my copy.

 

Concerning GK vehicles, you assert that it is 'treated as a Psyker' and 'Ld 10 for purposes of Psychic tests and Psychic hoods.' If that is the case, what leadership does it use when, as a Psyker being targetted by an anti-psyker ability, it must pass a Leadership test or be removed from play? Why would they limit the situations when you can use your leadership, without also limiting the situations where you can be forced to test on it? As you have already asserted that this rule is perfectly clear and understandable, please do not simply write it off as 'poor writing'.

[Grey Mage]

Only one of them has that issue- tigurius. All the Eldar units are described as having the Psyker rule, as are GK vehicles.

 

I eagerly anticipate your citation of that assertion regarding the Eldar Codex. I will happily admit my mistake as soon as I can confirm it in my copy.

 

Concerning GK vehicles, you assert that it is 'treated as a Psyker' and 'Ld 10 for purposes of Psychic tests and Psychic hoods.' If that is the case, what leadership does it use when, as a Psyker being targetted by an anti-psyker ability, it must pass a Leadership test or be removed from play? Why would they limit the situations when you can use your leadership, without also limiting the situations where you can be forced to test on it? As you have already asserted that this rule is perfectly clear and understandable, please do not simply write it off as 'poor writing'.

Farseers- on the farseer pg. 26, directly under the bolded 'fleet of food, independant character' wich is under the unit profile:

Psychic Powers: A farseer is a psyker and must choose between 1 and 4 Farseer psychic powers. A farseer can use a single psychic power per turn.

Warlocks- on the next page, pg. 27, right under the bolded fleet of foot again:

Warlock Powers: Each Warlock is a psyker and must be given a single Warlock power at the points cost listed in the army list.

Eldrad Ulthra- a bit farther in, pg. 51, directly under the bolded Independant Character:

Eldrad is a psyker and has the Eldritch Storm, Fortune, Guide, Doom, and Mind War psychic powers.

 

.... Thats everyone in the dex who has access to powers.

 

As for the Grey Knight powers issues:

Mindstrike missiles- covered. Runes of Warding- ld 10, rolls an extra d6, no issue. Psychic hoods- covered.

 

As for the crucible of malediction it requires a leadership test. Seeing as a psychic test is a leadership test I dont think it would be unreasonable to use the vehicles leadership of 10 in this case. However, it is entirely possible that this is an oversight- such as the ability for vehicles to get a cover save without being obscured, despite that being the only time it is discussed in the BRB. The same thing would of course be applicable to BA Libby dreads, and thats how weve played it in my area since the DE codex came out.

 

Witchhunters powers: Hammer of witches works fine, perils as normal. Psyocculum helps vs nightfight when targetting a psyker- no issue there. As far as I can see, and I am rusty on my WHs I admit, thats the only wargear that would apply to vehicles- others wound better, or require the enemy psyker to target the WH unit.

 

Tyranids- models inside a transport are exempt from shadow in the warp, but their faq makes no mention of the transports themselves. Vehicles would be effected normally- ie have a higher chance of perils.

 

Necron- Psychic Abomination doesnt apply because vehicles never take morale checks. I see no reason however that soulless wouldnt drop their LD to 7. (pg. 17)

Any enemy unit with a model within 12" of a Pariah counts as having leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that.

 

IIRC thats all the psychic defenses in the game. If you think of any others Id be happy to look them up though.

 

Also, I still think of it as poorly written, as it directly references only space marines- wich is a common problem in 40k books, and a sore spot with many xenos/renegade players.

[Inquisitor Apropos]

I stand corrected, the 'Psychic/Warlock Powers' rules on the unit entries pages of the Elder codex do explicitely define them as psykers, even though they lack the more common 'Psyker' special rule. I had been looking on page 28 where they discuss Psychic Powers and Warlock Powers in depth. Interestingly, while his unit entry (pg 51) lists Eldrad as having the Psychic Powers special rule, his army list entry (pg 61) does not. That'll show me for not checking thoroughly enough.

 

As far as anti-psyker wargear goes, you've covered everything I'm familiar with. I'm quite pleased that it only 'breaks' on the Crucible, and wouldn't see any problem ruling it in a similar manner to BA LibbyDreads (who manage to dodge the problem, as their wording is the broader 'for all psychic purposes').

 

I will say I'm not sure about Codex: Orks, or Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Nothing comes to mind, but they have a tendency to weirdness and I don't own them to check.

 

So, it looks like our Rhino's are safe(ish). Until they come out with a new army that wields bizarre anti-psyker stuff, that is.

[Angelis Mortis]

RAW: "All psykers in the same unit are treated as a single psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests, etc.

 

To lend more credence, quote Brotherhood of Pyskers "The unit [Grey Knights] counts as a single psyker"

 

So one concludes that RAW, a unit of 12 psykers counts as only 1 psyker for the Culexus weapon.

 

But this is wrong. When quoting a rule, it must be in context. For example, one can't quote a rule in close combat, then say it apply to shooting. Pretty obvious there.

 

The full context of the Psyker rule:

Psychic Powers: Psychic Barrage:

...

Only one Psychic Barrage is 'fired', regardless of the number of psykers in the squad. All psykers in the same unit are treated as a single psyker for the purpose of Psychic tests, etc, and use their own Leadership value, not that of any attached characters.

 

From context, it's fairly obvious the "single psyker" apply only to using the Psychic Barrage. It got no meaning outside of it. So how many psykers are in a 12-psyker warband? 12 pyskers.

 

Otherwise consider the crazy logic. A unit of psykers are treated as a single psyker. The Strength of the weapon increases by 1 for each additional psykers in the unit beyond the first. A unit of psykers are treated as a single psyker, thus there can never be any additional psykers beyond the first, they're a single psyker. So the strength will always be 3 and AP 6 regardless of the number of psykers in that unit.

 

Context is important. Only in the very narrow case of using the Psychic Barrage is the unit treated as 1 psykers. In all other situation, it's as normal.

 

Lets use some common sense in this shall we?

 

Take Coteaz and 6x12 Psyker Warbands. Now put them all within 12" of your Culexus. Do you really think GW wanted you to have +6 shots for your Animus, or +72? Seriously?

[CheezeFezt]

Lets use some common sense in this shall we?

 

Take Coteaz and 6x12 Psyker Warbands. Now put them all within 12" of your Culexus. Do you really think GW wanted you to have +6 shots for your Animus, or +72? Seriously?

 

The GK army faced off against IG. IG army has 3 Psyker Battle Squads of 12 Psykers each. Culexus get within all of them, that's +36 shots. Seriously.

 

If you want to beef out the Culexus, get 6x12 Mystic Warbands. That would be +72 shots. Seriously. Oh, my bad. Fluff say they're minor psyker and their powers is only named "Psychic Beacon." Please ignore all references to Psychic. They're not Psyker, but psyker, minor one at that.

[DeathKorpsman]

Lets use some common sense in this shall we?

 

Take Coteaz and 6x12 Psyker Warbands. Now put them all within 12" of your Culexus. Do you really think GW wanted you to have +6 shots for your Animus, or +72? Seriously?

 

The GK army faced off against IG. IG army has 3 Psyker Battle Squads of 12 Psykers each. Culexus get within all of them, that's +36 shots. Seriously.

 

If you want to beef out the Culexus, get 6x12 Mystic Warbands. That would be +72 shots. Seriously. Oh, my bad. Fluff say they're minor psyker and their powers is only named "Psychic Beacon." Please ignore all references to Psychic. They're not Psyker, but psyker, minor one at that.

 

Um, what? Facing off against IG, even if they did take 3 PBS's and lets say 2 Primaris Psykers too, that's 31 shots (you only get a max of 9 battle psykers in a PBS), but you have to cross the entire board to do that, since the Culexus has no special deployment rules like Infiltrate. If you manage to get your Culexus to them, I say you deserve it (and so does your opponent for taking such a weird list).

 

Now, let's say you take the Coteaz/6 Psyker warband example. You can give them all transports, take a Rhino for something else and put the Culexus in it. Now you run your mob of transports across the board with your Culexus firing 38 shots at whatever comes close. That seems like abuse. 8 shots for that big a blob of units seems more than fair for one model to be firing, especially since the other units aren't going to be idle during this time.

 

Aside from the fact that, by RAW, you are pretty way out in left field (clearly since you referenced Mystics, unless you're being sarcastic because with your arguments it is difficult to tell), by RAI your assertion that any of the individual squad members in the Grey Knight codex should be counted as separate psykers reeks of abuse. Having a special rule that gives you a broken ability based on what your opponent has in his list isn't uncommon, whereas having something that can start broken based on how you make your own list isn't as common and generally gets FAQ'd.

[CheezeFezt]

Having a special rule that gives you a broken ability based on what your opponent has in his list isn't uncommon, whereas having something that can start broken based on how you make your own list isn't as common and generally gets FAQ'd.

 

My personal belief is Culexus should only get beefed on number of enemy psykers. But I'm not the lead developer.

 

I seriously doubt this will get FAQ. Rules is well defined. It's people trying to take thing out of context because they don't like the implication that we have 4 pages of argument.

 

Aside from the fact that, by RAW, you are pretty way out in left field (clearly since you referenced Mystics, unless you're being sarcastic because with your arguments it is difficult to tell), by RAI your assertion that any of the individual squad members in the Grey Knight codex should be counted as separate psykers reeks of abuse.

 

I was being sarcastic with the Mystic.

 

Abuse? Henchmen ain't Grey Knights.

 

If you want to plop down 1,300 pt and concentrate them within 12" of a dude and still able to get that dude within 12" of a target, more power to you. If the opponent play so poorly he can't avoid this, too bad for him. Wow, for 1,300 pt, a dude can wipe out a 100pt marine squad. So totally overpowering.

 

Anyhoo, you think it's reasonable to drop a mindstrike on one dude, said dude failed PofW, and whole 12-members squad get wiped?

[FerociousBeast]

number6, you've forced me to resort to bullet points. Quotation follows with numbers for citations.

 

I think it is very clear that the Psykers in the Henchman squad are only a collective psyker in one single case: when they are using Psychic Power: Psychic Barrage.

Is this what you were trying to explain before? There you go! One sentence. NOW I get what you're trying to argue. (1)

 

The only place it says anything about Psykers pooling their resources is in the rules for Psychic Barrage. As I've already argued, in every case a psychic power's effects ONLY apply when the psychic power is active, cast, or used somehow. In other words, the rules for Psychic Barrage only apply after the squad passes its Psychic Test, and once the Psychic Barrage has been resolved, the rules cease to apply.

 

In no other case that I can think of do the rules of a Psychic Power have effect on the unit when the Psychic Power is not being used.

I emphasized your last sentence because you yourself are describing why what you're arguing makes no sense. You have to invent a new concept for the game in order for it work. (2) Whereas the simpler solution is to just accept that the intention of the rule -- written, as it is, in the mirror image of Brotherhood of Psykers (3) -- is what it patently appears to be. (4)

1) No, that's still not what I'm trying to argue... or rather, you failed to quote the most salient bit.

2) A new concept??? My point is precisely the opposite. My point is that nowhere else do rules in a psychic power apply when the psychic power is not being used. You are the one inventing "a new concept", the idea that GW would package into a Psychic Power not only a Psychic Power, but also some Unit Special Rules thrown in for good measure.

3) Again, as has repeatedly been demonstrated by myself and others in this thread, Psychic Barrage is in no way a "mirror image" of Brotherhood of Psykers. There are several very important differences.

4) This is your most mystifying point of all. You say that it patently appears to you that Psykers in a Henchman Band are one collective Psyker, whereas it appears just as patently obvious to me that Psykers are individual. This point must need further illustration since our minds are clearly not working the same way here.

 

You and I are playing a game of 40k. I have a Coteaz army and you have straight Grey Knights. It is my turn. I have three 12-man squads of Henchmen, each filled completely with Psykers. I have a Culexus within 12" of all of them, and am about to shoot at your 5-man Paladin squad.

 

Me: "There are 36 Psykers and one Paladin squad within 12" of my Culexus, so I get to add 37 shots to the Animus Speculum's base 2 shots, for a total of 39."

You: "Hold up a second. Each of those three Henchman bands only counts for 1 Psyker. You get 4 + 2 shots."

Me: "What? Where does it say that in the rules?"

You: "Psychic Barrage! 'All psykers in the same unit are treated as a single psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests, etc...'"

Me: "First, you're assuming that there's quite a lot packed into that 'etc,' especially when everything that's explicitly mentioned in that rule is directly relating to nothing other than shooting a Psychic Barrage. Second, all of that is in the rules for a Psychic Power, and therefore clearly only applies when the Psychic Power is being used. I'm shooting with the Culexus right now. So Psychic Barrage doesn't apply."

You: "But it's clear what the intent is! Haven't you read Brotherhood of Psykers?"

Me: "Brotherhood of Psykers is a Unit Special Rule! Not a Psychic Power! Apples and oranges, man. And besides, there are several key differences between the two rules. Psykers in a Henchman Band seem much more like IG Sanctioned Psykers. All of whom count as Psykers."

You: "You're just gaming the system. They are clearly not Psykers."

Me: "They're called Psykers!"

You: "Doesn't count. They don't have the Psyker rule."

Me: "The Psyker rule isn't consistently applied, and regardless, they obviously have a Psychic Power, so they have to be Psykers. AND FINALLY, the rules for the Animus Speculum doesn't say anything about a 'Psyker rule', it just says add 1 for every psyker within 12". I think a model called 'Psyker' counts as a psyker. I get 39 shots."

You: "You're a jerk and a power gamer and you're ignoring the obvious intent of the rules."

Me: "You're a sore loser and a rules lawyer and you're ignoring the obvious intent of the rules."

You and Me: "Roll off!"

 

(Italicized my most important points.)

 

I don't think GW will FAQ this. It's become more and more clear to me as I've thought through this that my interpretation of the rules is both RAW and RAI. Not to say GW didn't foul up considerably by overlooking the possibilities with Coteaz, spammed Henchmen, and a Culexus, but I don't think GW ever intended Psykers in a Henchman Band to not count as individual psykers. And anyway, while the possibilities seem ridiculous on paper, a considerable number of stars need to align for this to work, and the Culexus can only ever target one unit at a time.