doom fists

[henrywalker]

ok, so a couple of questions about the dreadknight doomfists.

 

first, it has 2, does that give it a bonus attack or is that included in the profile.

 

second, why do they have hammer hand if their attacks are at strength 10 anyway?

 

cheers

[Zagman]

ok, so a couple of questions about the dreadknight doomfists.

 

first, it has 2, does that give it a bonus attack or is that included in the profile.

 

second, why do they have hammer hand if their attacks are at strength 10 anyway?

 

cheers

 

They gain the additional attack.

 

Currently there is no concenss as to whether the doom fist grants S10 RAW to a Dread Knight. We are all waiting patiently for an FAQ to sort this mess out.

[Something Wycked]

They gain the additional attack.

 

Currently there is no concenss as to whether the doom fist grants S10 RAW to a Dread Knight. We are all waiting patiently for an FAQ to sort this mess out.

RAW is pretty clear that they're for walkers, not MC's... but RAI, it certainly does increase the strength.

 

Hammerhand will help if you give your DK a Greatsword, because the Greatsword does not increase strength.

[BrotherWasted]

Hammerhand is used for the Greatsword.

[henrywalker]

why is there any issue as to whether they et double strength. it says they are dreadnaught close combat weapons, plain and simple. also i think i'm right that if you have 2 different special CC weapons then you can choose which one to use?

 

so i have 2 doomfists, i get 4 strength 10 attacks, if i have 1 greatsword and 1 doomfist i either get 3 strength 10 attcks or 3 strength 6/7 attacks with rerolls

[Something Wycked]

why is there any issue as to whether they et double strength. it says they are dreadnaught close combat weapons, plain and simple.

That's exactly it- they're Dreadnought close combat weapons. The Dreadknight is not a Dreadnought. There's language in the weapon description that says it doubles the walker's strength- the Dreadknight is not a walker, it is a monstrous creature. But its pretty obvious to me that if GW is going to make those be the Dreadknight's standard loadout, they're going to write it in the FAQ that the fists work for the Dreadknight too.

 

Yes, you choose which weapon to use if you have a mix and do not get the bonus attack from paired weapons, but I don't remember if the base of 4 in the DK's profile reflected the paired weapons or not. It might be 5 with the fists and 4 with the sword, or you might have it right. Don't have the book in front of me to check.

[henrywalker]

its only base 3, which seems weak enough that they should give us an extra. in the rule book it talks about various CC weapons wielded by walkers, ie the orks wrecking ball and then gives the dreadnaught CC weapon underneath. dunno if that makes a difference. its seems odd to think that they would say it acts like on apart from doubling the strength, do they do much else?

 

oh well, have to wait for the FAQ

[Drudge Dreadnought]

They do plenty else. The Doomfist is the ONLY way to give it a CC weapon that provides the nemesis force weapon functionality (force weapon, daemonbane) without also giving it another bonus (+1 invul from sword, +2 ini from halberd, etc.) Compare it to the other weapons, and it makes perfect sense for it to be str 6, but no sense at all for them to be str 10. And remember also that the model itself has actual fists.

 

Fists (at str6): Cheapest option, has an extra attack.

Hammer: Costs more, but has the higher strength to really smash vehicles, and the thunderhammer traits.

Sword: Most expensive, but great all around due to re-rolls.

Fists (at str10): Still cheapest, still extra attack, but now the best option overall, including better than the really expensive sword.

 

Why would they have the best weapon option be the default, and make the other two choices pointless? The logic here is obvious. If you play with the doomfists giving you str, realize that you are giving yourself the most advantageous interpretation even though it isn't the most logical.

[Zagman]

They do plenty else. The Doomfist is the ONLY way to give it a CC weapon that provides the nemesis force weapon functionality (force weapon, daemonbane) without also giving it another bonus (+1 invul from sword, +2 ini from halberd, etc.) Compare it to the other weapons, and it makes perfect sense for it to be str 6, but no sense at all for them to be str 10. And remember also that the model itself has actual fists.

 

Fists (at str6): Cheapest option, has an extra attack.

Hammer: Costs more, but has the higher strength to really smash vehicles, and the thunderhammer traits.

Sword: Most expensive, but great all around due to re-rolls.

Fists (at str10): Still cheapest, still extra attack, but now the best option overall, including better than the really expensive sword.

 

Why would they have the best weapon option be the default, and make the other two choices pointless? The logic here is obvious. If you play with the doomfists giving you str, realize that you are giving yourself the most advantageous interpretation even though it isn't the most logical.

 

This was my initial thinking. But in practice, I still think the Greatsword is the best option.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

This was my initial thinking. But in practice, I still think the Greatsword is the best option.

 

The true strength of the Greatsword is that it lets you avoid arguing about doomfists with your opponent.

[Brother Valerius]

If you play with the doomfists giving you str, realize that you are giving yourself the most advantageous interpretation even though it isn't the most logical.

 

I completely disagree, and I'm not even planning to run with doomfists (the re-rolls from the greatsword are too good to pass up, plus it looks incredible). In my opinion, the most logical interpretation is that there would be no point to give the unit a DCCW if you didn't intend for it to benefit from double str (after all, it'd be perfectly easy to simply say that the attacks count as being made with a NFW).

 

I respect your right to your opinion, but you seem to be implying that anyone who interprets the rule is trying to interpret rules to their advantage, but that simply isn't true. There is a very reasonable case to be made that the doomfist is meant to double str.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I respect your right to your opinion, but you seem to be implying that anyone who interprets the rule is trying to interpret rules to their advantage, but that simply isn't true. There is a very reasonable case to be made that the doomfist is meant to double str.

 

That is exactly what I am implying, because I do not see any reasonable case for it. Arguments from fluff are not reasonable in a rules debate. The RaW is extremely clear—Dreadnoughts double their strength. The Dreadknight is a monstrous creature. The only argument for interpreting that it also gets to double its strength is that it's also big. But that's not a rules argument, it's a fluff and model argument.

[henrywalker]

Quote

 

"Walkers are often armed with huge close combat weapons – hammers, wrecking balls, claws, etc. A Dreadnought close combat weapon is a power weapon and doubles the walker’s Strength in close combat (up to a maximum of 10)."

 

why would it talk about other walked close combat weapons, then give DCC rules, then not give rules for other ones?

 

i really don't see where people get off saying we don't get the full dreadnaught rules. The codex says:

 

"a nemesis doom fist follows the rules for dreadnought close combat weapons" the rules for dreadnaught close combat weapons are: "A Dreadnought close combat weapon is a power weapon and doubles the walker’s Strength in close combat"

 

how can anyone interpret it otherwise????

[Brom MKIV]

And thus another thread degenerates. Wait for the faq.

[henrywalker]

how has it degenerated. can someone actually present the proper argument against it though. i honestly don't see it.

 

the FAQ would have to say. "doomfists follow rules for dreadnaught close combat weapons. however they don't because they are not dreadnaughts."

[Drudge Dreadnought]

how has it degenerated. can someone actually present the proper argument against it though. i honestly don't see it.

 

the FAQ would have to say. "doomfists follow rules for dreadnaught close combat weapons. however they don't because they are not dreadnaughts."

 

Yes, doomfists are DCCWs. They double the strength of any walker using them. The dreadknight is not a walker, so it doesn't get its strength doubled. That's all there is to it.

 

How could you suggest that a non-walker would get a walker-only bonus?

[henrywalker]

they didn't know when writing the rulebook that they were going to make this codex. why would they tell you it is a dreadnaught close combat weapon if they didn't want you to use all the rules? the only DCCW rule that does not refer to a walker is that it is a power weapon. so therefore you are saying that the doomfist is a force weapon which is a power weapon.

[Brother Valerius]

I respect your right to your opinion, but you seem to be implying that anyone who interprets the rule is trying to interpret rules to their advantage, but that simply isn't true. There is a very reasonable case to be made that the doomfist is meant to double str.

 

That is exactly what I am implying, because I do not see any reasonable case for it. Arguments from fluff are not reasonable in a rules debate. The RaW is extremely clear—Dreadnoughts double their strength. The Dreadknight is a monstrous creature. The only argument for interpreting that it also gets to double its strength is that it's also big. But that's not a rules argument, it's a fluff and model argument.

 

Nobody says that, RAW, the doomfists double strength. They clearly don't. What I'm saying is that it's pretty clear that they are intended to, and as such it's perfectly reasonable to play it that way.

[Something Wycked]

Nobody says that, RAW, the doomfists double strength. They clearly don't. What I'm saying is that it's pretty clear that they are intended to, and as such it's perfectly reasonable to play it that way.

QFT!

[Fenric]

Have to agree there that if they didn't intend it to be str 10 they would't have added it works like a dreadnought close combat weapon.

My friend who played versus me first time I played with the new codex fully agrees.

[Iron Lord]

And it's not a new thing- Wraithlords in the 3rd ed Eldar Codex were monstrous creatures with Dreadnought CCWs- and theirs gave them Str 10.

[Grey Mage]

They do plenty else. The Doomfist is the ONLY way to give it a CC weapon that provides the nemesis force weapon functionality (force weapon, daemonbane) without also giving it another bonus (+1 invul from sword, +2 ini from halberd, etc.) Compare it to the other weapons, and it makes perfect sense for it to be str 6, but no sense at all for them to be str 10. And remember also that the model itself has actual fists.

 

Fists (at str6): Cheapest option, has an extra attack.

Hammer: Costs more, but has the higher strength to really smash vehicles, and the thunderhammer traits.

Sword: Most expensive, but great all around due to re-rolls.

Fists (at str10): Still cheapest, still extra attack, but now the best option overall, including better than the really expensive sword.

 

Why would they have the best weapon option be the default, and make the other two choices pointless? The logic here is obvious. If you play with the doomfists giving you str, realize that you are giving yourself the most advantageous interpretation even though it isn't the most logical.

Whats the point in equiping it with them at all then? If its just a powerweapon then... well, being a monstrous creature would have it covered.

[DeathKorpsman]

Doomfist isn't just a power weapon, it's a Nemesis Force Weapon that is also a Dreadnought CCW. This means it can ID things like a force weapon, has the extra ID chance against Daemons, etc because of its Nemesis rules. It has some functionality, which sets it apart from the Daemonhammer which costs points to get. I would find it odd to pay points just for the Thunderhammer rules if Doomfists have the same strength as Daemonhammers. That's just me. Wouldn't bother me a bit if the FAQ came out and said "yep, str 10 on stock NDK's". Seems odd is all.

[Iron Lord]

Thunder Hammer has the ability to inflict "crew shaken" on a vehicle if it hits, regardless of other effects, whether it penetrates or not.

 

I think it does something to ordinary models as well (Maybe reduce them to Init 1?)

 

so- there is a benefit.

[BrotherWasted]

The Nemesis Daemonhammer is nothing more than a thunder hammer with the Nemesis special rule, making it a Force Weapon instead of a Power Weapon. The REAL benefit is that the Dreadknight will strike at regular initiative with it instead of initiative 1.

 

Yes, thunder hammers will reduce surviving models that took a wound to Initiative 1 next round, and automatically inflict Crew Shaken BEFORE you roll for armor penetration. Which makes the DKnight version that much more awesome.

 

Personally, I would choose it over a Greatsword, but that is just me.