Vindicaire Wound Allocation Question

[DeathKorpsman]

With the new codex, the Vindicaire now has a slightly different targeting profile than he did in the previous list. He isn't referenced as being able to ignore normal targeting restrictions, for example, other than being able to choose which model has wounds allocated to it. This is largely (IMO) due to the targeting and wound allocation rules changes from 4th to 5th ed.

 

Now, what happens when the assassin targets a unit (he doesn't target a model, just allocates the wound) as normal per the rulebook targeting rules that is partially in and partially out of LOS? Clearly, everyone in the unit would get a cover save (damn the loss of spy mask!), but what if there is a model in the unit out of LOS that the assassin wants to assign a wound to? Is this possible? According to the current wound allocation rules, any model in a unit with a member of that unit that can be seen can be wounded (in fact must be with saturation wounds), with cover saves as applicable. It seems odd to me that a wound could be allocated to a model that the assassin can't see simply because another model in the same unit is visible. Thoughts on this?

 

Did a quick forum search, but I tend to fail at those. If this has been discussed elsewhere can I get a link? :)

[Something Wycked]

You got it right.

 

The Vindicare first fires at the squad because you cannot pick an Independant Character who is hidden in a squad to shoot at, nor can you shoot at upgrade characters in the squad. So he shoots the squad, makes his roll to wound, and if successful, he can assign it to any model in that squad, in LOS or no.

 

Just like when a unit is 50% or more in cover, even the models who aren't in cover get a cover save. Even though they're using true LOS now for shooting attacks, there's still some imagination involved- the people aren't just standing there in cover, they're moving around, so even though the IC/upgrade character's model isn't in LOS from the firing model's point of view, at some point he's going to stick his head out and get popped by the sniper :)

[DeathKorpsman]

Interesting. Especially since, as you point out, GW has largely gotten rid of imaginary targeting (area terrain, LOS, units further than other units, etc.) with 5th ed. I would have jumped to the conclusion that a model wouldn't have been targetable (which admittedly it isn't) without making the further leap that though it isn't targetable you could still allocate wounds to it. Well, I would have jumped to that conclusion if I hadn't re-read the pertinent shooting rules and scratched my head wondering how that all worked out. I suppose this is some of that inverse rules fudging that GW seems fond of, like making shooting less subjective while making h2h moreso (being able to take models off the rear of a unit even if they are 20" away or something due to a huge horde size or something). Instead of not being able to plink off people you can't see like in 4th, you can now - and in some cases have to - in certain circumstances do so with things like wound saturation or our illustrious Vindicaire. I will ponder this and decide how it makes sense, though I know it to be true RAW.

[Something Wycked]

I was one of the most mystified when they went to true LOS for shooting- not just for the addition of wound allocations sometimes breaking true LOS if you inflict enough on a unit, but also for other, similar issues. By the shooting rules, since one model can see another, you'd be able to fire into an assault and the worst thing that would happen is the enemy models get cover saves from your (presumably intervening) models. But that is specifically disallowed because the melee is described as a whirling, swirling mosh pit of death where you would only just shoot your own people for how often they're getting in the way.

[DeathKorpsman]

And lets be honest, in the grim dark tragic future of WH40K, there would be an awful lot more friendly fire going on than you can get in a normal game. A lot more. Some armies just wouldn't care, and others would see it as the ends justifying the means. Frankly, I'd see it as an effective counter to assault troops, with some sort of random effect for hitting your own guys (misses hit your own troops? I like). Granted, it might require some points rebalancing, but seriously GW is too pansy foot about the whole not shooting into your own guys thing.

[Zagman]

Vindicare targets a squad it has LOS to.

Rolls to hit on a 1.5+.

Rolls to wound, either 2+ or 4+.

Vindicare's controller allocates the wound to ANY model in the squad irregardless of LOS, just at the opponent could have if it were a normal attack.

You then determine if the SQUAD has a cover save, LOS and cover to the specific model in question does not matter, cover is still determined for the unit. If the squad has cover, then a cover save is granted against the wounded model even if it normally wouldn't have one.

[Ashe Darke]

To be honest it is no different that a squad being fired at where only one model can be seen and then enough wounds put on them that a unique model out of LoS to get wounded. It's then possible for only him to fail his save.

 

A guy out of LoS got killed in both situations, the assassin is just a lot more efficient. It can happen in normal shooting as at least, how ever unlikely it is.

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

Vindicare targets a squad it has LOS to.

Rolls to hit on a 1.5+.

Rolls to wound, either 2+ or 4+.

Vindicare's controller allocates the wound to ANY model in the squad irregardless of LOS, just at the opponent could have if it were a normal attack.

You then determine if the SQUAD has a cover save, LOS and cover to the specific model in question does not matter, cover is still determined for the unit. If the squad has cover, then a cover save is granted against the wounded model even if it normally wouldn't have one.

 

 

you mean 0.5+ to hit

[DeathKorpsman]

Oh I totally agree with how the RAW works, that wasn't my issue. It just seemed.... icky.... from a rules perspective. The old Marksman rule at least required LOS to the target to get a kill (wouldn't ya think?). New system, new rules. Not a huge deal. I was more curious if others had noticed the oddity with the ninja-sniper rounds (That aren't listed in his wargear! The shame!) or the prevalence of IC's who stick their heads around from behind Land Raiders whenever a man-portable death rifle is in use.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Me and my friends have tried playing with dakka into c.c. Hits hit the target, misses hit your own units, no blasts or templates. Works like a charm, no cover saves either, as the cover is your own units, so to speak.

[Ashe Darke]

I like to think of it as being similar to the Red Dwarf episode Gunmen of the Apocalypse where the Cat richochets bullets off of various objects :D

 

Although how he sees them in the first place is still a mystery.