im i a grizzled old GK Vet?

[Deamon Wolf]

Ok boys and girls the Grey Knights have been my favriout army to play and were the army that got me back in to the hobby

 

there are things in the new codex that are causing me great pain im not liking the loss of always strength 6 and all units ws 5 i can understand it with the fact that evey one has force weapons

but im not sure if all the knights needed force weapons, just the justicars and terminators the standard knights could have had rending, also im not sure the loss of true grit is a benifit or a cures as

the loss of the extra attack from the storm bolter is a very bad thing

 

dont get me wrong the codex has lots of good things and the knights are now very powerful vs marines but not really much else or that is my personal oppinon

 

please let me know if there our other grey knight vets out there who are missing the older knights

[Chairman_woo]

You can basically do all of those things still tho realy, you just dont get then as standard (and have to pay for them!). (St 6 from libby & hammerhand, extra attack from banner or counter-attack/grand strategy etc.)

 

Seems like they could have gone two ways with this codex, option 1 was to keep the incredible CC potential (maybe throw in some invuns etc.) and make all/most GK's something akin to jump infantry to make them viable. This would have made them bloodangels +1 to some extent, and there was a big dainger of becomeing a 2 dimentional "crutch" army, so I can understand the shift.

 

Option 2 was to masively bolster the GK's midrange potential, give them losts of deepstrike and 24" weapons, and make them all pretty handy but not the end of the world in CC. Tweaking the list in general to make good positioning and fire priority essential due to the limited number of good ranged invun saves and much firepower beyond 24".

 

The way they wrote the new book breaks open alot of variations in how GK play esp by getting normal GK down to a sensible price. St6 and ws5 had to go to make that happen, but if you want that kind of CC potential you can still get it. It will just cost you and require a bit of specialisation.

 

Personaly I feel this is the most GK the GK's have ever been, adaptable and pragmatic with psypowers out of the backside. We lost a very simplistic army that was far too specialised to compete against alot of other armies (they were rubbish vs CC specialised armies anyway), and gained an adaptable force that can outshoot many/most units at 24", and take an assault from all but the most concerted CC attack.

 

I'd take I6 halberds, st5 stormbolters and "super assault cannons" over +1 st6 cc atacks with anyday. But I do understand your greivence, basic power armour GK are a bit less "special" than before and seem a bit like glorified tactical marines in many ways. But that dosent seem so bad to me and helps diferentiate their battlefield role from the terminators. GKT have a bigger edge in CC with less static shooting potential, PAGK have an edge in shooting but lack the same oomph when taking or launching a charge like the GKT.

 

just my 2 cents, tho I havent babbled much in GK since 2nd ed

[number6]

While I agree that the tabletop feel of the old GKs has all but been eliminated, I still feel like the army we got with the new codex is definitively GREY KNIGHTS. <_< They are still super secret medieval sorcerers that don't trust anybody else to Do The Right Thing, combined with Boroque Holy Warrior Knights of Awesomeness. And the rules reflect that core imagery pretty well, IMHO.

 

Your mileage may vary. I too miss the tabletop dependability that came with the old GK stats. But on the flip side we still got GK models that are about as scary as core Troops get, with non-Troops only getting scarier than that.

 

I am a grizzled vet and fan of the old rules, but am definitely a fan of the new ones, too.

[Joasht]

I've had my GKs since 3rd ed, I'm actually happy with the new codex. I've always had a massive gripe with the lack of power weapons amongst the Grey Knights in the old codex outside of the Terminators (who back when they first came out, were totally awesome by any measure) and HQ.

[Adir]

I too am a long time DH/GK player and I am almost completely thrilled with this new book. The inquisition got even more flavor than the previous book and the grey knights are finally represented well on the tabletop.

 

As to the reduction of CC weapon strength, I actually think the upgraded init from the halberds better represents their speed. I would have liked some way to "unlock" WS 5 on my basic grey knights, but you can somewhat counter that with judicious use of grenades from the various ICs available (don't forget about the techmarine).

 

As to the complaints regarding retcon, the grey knights remain (as they always have) the chamber militant for the inquisition. In fact, this codex rectifies the notion that the sisters of battle were the military arm of the ordo hereticus. Historically this was not the case, as the SoB are part of the Ecclesiarchy, an organization that often opposes (or is investigated by) the Inquisition. I like the fact that all three arms of the ordos are represented and am amazed at the variety of wargear items sprinkled throughout this book. The notion that a xenos inquisitor can take a conversion beamer is nothing short of awesome in my book!

[c-wrex]

I personally rather like being able to take more than one option for a multi-wound GK HQ besides the old Grand Master (and maybe old stern, I don't remember what amount of wounds he had). I'm surprised no one makes more mention of that. You could take a badass grand master with a psycannon and psybolt ammo and sit him with some shooty paladins to sit somewhere and drop strength 8 psycannon shots every turn (to take advantage of the gm's bs of 6) and use him to cover a brother captain with rad grenades and master crafted falchions and use him as an assault unit with some terminators (or maybe some purifiers) with his cheaper cost and ws of 6.

 

Really, the new versatility of their hq's is a big deal for me personally.

[number6]

You could take a badass grand master with a psycannon and psybolt ammo and sit him with some shooty paladins to sit somewhere and drop strength 8 psycannon shots every turn

Ah, if only. ;) Psybolts have no effect on psycannons.

 

But yes: our HQs are incredibly versatile. IMHO, it's the HQ that largely determines your army, for good and ill. I like 'em. ;)

[c-wrex]

Ah, if only. :) Psybolts have no effect on psycannons.

 

But yes: our HQs are incredibly versatile. IMHO, it's the HQ that largely determines your army, for good and ill. I like 'em. :)

 

Ah, yup, you're right. Just checked.

 

Versatility is what I was trying to show, and I'm glad you picked it up.

 

Oh, and there's techmarines now! Finally, somebody who can fix that one 1 land raider you could barely afford to bring in there!

[number6]

Oh, and there's techmarines now! Finally, somebody who can fix that one 1 land raider you could barely afford to bring in there!

Not just that, but techmarines that are INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS! Huzzah! And the other Space Marines players wept. :) I've been trying to build a list that includes Techmarines....

[Gentlemanloser]

Does 'Scout' carry over to Techmarines?

 

If so, I'd add one to a unit of Purifiers in a Rhino, and give him the 'nades they don't get access to (Rad, Blind and Psycho). Then Scout the unit for a first turn charge. :) This has the added benefit of freeing up the Puri's power that turn for Cleansing Flame or Force Weapons, and the Techy can Hammerhand the whole unit. ;) And you don't need a NDH thanks to the Servo Fists!

 

If Scout doesn't carry over, they're probably best with Conversion beamers. The OSR suck! :)

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Does 'Scout' carry over to Techmarines?

 

If so, I'd add one to a unit of Purifiers in a Rhino, and give him the 'nades they don't get access to (Rad, Blind and Psycho). Then Scout the unit for a first turn charge. :D This has the added benefit of freeing up the Puri's power that turn for Cleansing Flame or Force Weapons, and the Techy can Hammerhand the whole unit. ;) And you don't need a NDH thanks to the Servo Fists!

 

If Scout doesn't carry over, they're probably best with Conversion beamers. The OSR suck! :cuss

 

No.

[Flinch]

I don't miss my old DH codex at all. The multitude of times I fielded my GK army back in the day (from 2002 onwards) every single one of the GK's died almost every game. I love a close game. I hate slaughterfests.

 

Now I can have a game with my Grey Knights and losing isn't a foregone conclusion. In fact, I'm winning again... at least until the local meta changes to deal with the latest codex. Same local meta change happened with my friends' wolves and blood angels. It will happen with the next codex too.

 

But I still don't miss the old codex, or anything in it.

[Gentlemanloser]

No.

 

/Meh

 

Then probably the best way to to attach him to 9 Purifiers and a Libby, stick them in a Storm Raven and Reserve it.

[BrotherWasted]

Oh, and there's techmarines now! Finally, somebody who can fix that one 1 land raider you could barely afford to bring in there!

Not just that, but techmarines that are INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS! Huzzah! And the other Space Marines players wept. :) I've been trying to build a list that includes Techmarines....

 

 

Oooh, oooh, I know, let's follow the Beasts of War idea and use all our elite slots for Conversion/Strike Relay Techmarines! Then stick our one wound template throwers up the back where they can't POSSIBLY get hit....*rolls eyes*

 

Techies are assault models.

[Oiad]

Funny, I was expecting a lot more hassle being made towards the OP. Previously, whenever I've read of a veteran's disappointment at the new codex it's always been met by hostility.

 

The new rules, personally am I finding intriguing to mess around with. Lots of options and builds. Can't see it being a codex for tournie enthusiasts and there are many units/rules that could have done with more attention and fine-tuning. In contrast, the new fluff does give me a headache, though it's not the more 'pragmatic' stance that start-ups keep on harping on about as if it should be accepted as law. In fact I quite like it in some ways. I guess it's more to do with restraint. Going from being daemonhunters to sisterhunters was a step too far and doesn't even make sense within the context of the rest of the codex imo. Lines like "...and the Grey Knights were able to defeat the daemons and win the day!" also come off as if being written by a child.

 

I can understand some of your sentiments Daemon Wolf, such as the loss of WS5. It may suit the new system of rules well but it's nothing really to do with the rules. More it's to do with what it represents to other chapters by comparison - the devalued the status of Grey Knights from once being superior-skilled compared to SMs to being the same. Insignificant to most, especially those who always felt there should be no difference between the two but it was a blow for the minority of those who were drawn to that aspect of the Grey Knights and really loved it. The same could be said for the fearless rule too, it's not a game thing but a justification of the fluff. But I think that's all part of the approach Matt Ward wanted to take, that now only their psychic ability really sets them apart from other chapters. *shrugs*

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Orbital relay and conversion beamer spamming is more for lulz, in practice they end up being largely useless vs armour spam or good cover saves (I'm looking at you, Imperial Guard!). The grenades are nice, but not essential.

 

By far and away the most amazing build is the Purifier army. I know it's not technically keeping with the background, but throwing down 50 Purifiers in Rhinos with maxed psycannon, and a Termie squad with Libby to provide 'Shrouding' and 'Sanctuary' bubbles is a pretty mean army. You get pretty much the same armour saturation as a MSU army, the difference being that when said AV11 spam dies, the infantry that hop out will clean up whatever tiny Razorback-unlocking squad was used. Also, losing Rhinos only matters in the early game really, once you've got Purifiers in mid-range and cover, they're incredibly difficult to shift. Supported by Dreadnoughts with the twin autocannon pattern we've grown to love (and in my case a Dreadknight for Landraider interception), you can box the enemy into their DZ and make life difficult.

 

For more balanced/fun lists, I like the Terminator squads as Troops. It means you don't have to put up with the mediocrity of the Strike squad (srsly, 2 max psycannon, and they fold in close-combat with anything resembling a half-decent assault unit), you have somewhere to put your Librarian/Grandmaster (as otherwise you need a Stormraven to attach them to power-armoured squads and still have transportation), and free halberds/hammer mean they're not as gimped as Strike squads in close-combat. Fill your mandatory with two Termie squads, take two mechanised Purifier squads in Elite with a Vindicare, Grandmaster+Libby in HQ, pair of Stormravens, Dreadknight and two Dreadnoughts. You don't quite get the armour saturation of the Purifier list, but you still have a variety of units and with some good servo-skull placement, you can land Troops on your objective(s) at the right moment. You don't have to throw your Terminators at the enemy's face, landing them in the backfield while the rest of your army is drawing their attention/fire can create some difficult choices for the enemy.

[- 7eAL -]

I can understand some of your sentiments Daemon Wolf, such as the loss of WS5. It may suit the new system of rules well but it's nothing really to do with the rules. More it's to do with what it represents to other chapters by comparison - the devalued the status of Grey Knights from once being superior-skilled compared to SMs to being the same. Insignificant to most, especially those who always felt there should be no difference between the two but it was a blow for the minority of those who were drawn to that aspect of the Grey Knights and really loved it. The same could be said for the fearless rule too, it's not a game thing but a justification of the fluff. But I think that's all part of the approach Matt Ward wanted to take, that now only their psychic ability really sets them apart from other chapters. *shrugs*

Feerless Grey Knights wouldn't be a problem if somebody had written Daemons that properly cause fear like they do in Fantasy, but no such foresight was taken.

 

I too am an unsatisfied and disgruntled veteran. Leaving new units aside, it seems that many of the problems in the old book have found their way into the new book in various forms. Nobody has yet complained, however, that more than one Grey Knight Dreadnought is unfluffy. Nobody has yet complained that the heavy reliance on Psyflemen Dreadnoughts to play anti-armour roles is unfluffy - yes the burden on Dreadnoughts is lighter than before because more units can handle anti-armour roles, but they are still the most efficient choice. We've all happily run with the inclusion of Rhinos and Razorbacks. Nobody has yet complained that a teleporting army shouldn't need medium armour for transportation, that it's unfluffy. No doubt because Ward has rewritten the fluff, and we're all happy with new fluff the way Dark Angels are happier with Stubborn than Intractable. I will refrain from going into the rest, as my frustration increases with every thought.

 

I'm happy that everyone is happy with the new publication, but I do not have any personal desire to participate. I'm sure I'll eventually come to terms with the new Grey Knights codex, or stop playing Imperials entirely out of spite. In either case it'll be a very unpleasant day when I look back at this distress, and when I tell myself that I'm a fool for believing in the permanence of ideologies, and an even bigger fool to so unhappily compare Matt Ward's present track record with Stalin's overthrow and corruption of Leninist-Marxism.

[Gentlemanloser]

Nobody has yet complained that a teleporting army shouldn't need medium armour for transportation

 

I've complained we didn't get a Teleport Assault, or better/more support for Teleportation. Plus that we lack Drop Pods for our Dreads. :D

[Iron Lord]

Just because they can teleport, doesn't mean it's always the best option- dropping in via Thunderhawks (the vehicles carried in by Thunderhawk transporter) and going in mounted, may work better.

[Seahawk]

In the BL shortstory in the new anthology book, Justicar Alaric reflects on how teleporting is done only RARELY. That's certainly a new development for the chapter that used to teleport everything, and makes sense for the inclusion of ground transports.

[number6]

I too am an unsatisfied and disgruntled veteran. Leaving new units aside, it seems that many of the problems in the old book have found their way into the new book in various forms. Nobody has yet complained, however, that more than one Grey Knight Dreadnought is unfluffy.

Well, it was unfluffy. But the new fluff makes it plausible. ;)

 

In any case, GK players from the DH codex were forced to run either multiple land raiders -- which had its own problems, implications, limitations -- or multiple shooty dreads to have any kind of hope in games. I was never happy with either of those solutions. That fact that dreads are both better, more versatile, and not entirely required -- if obviously an efficient use of points -- strikes me as an improvement.

 

We've all happily run with the inclusion of Rhinos and Razorbacks. Nobody has yet complained that a teleporting army shouldn't need medium armour for transportation, that it's unfluffy.

I wish to go on record as always questioning why GKs didn't have transports other than land raiders. Frankly, I thought that was ridiculous -- in the same way that I still think the total lack of melta weaponry in the GK arsenal to be unbelievably stupid from a tactical standpoint (and I don't mean tabletop tactics, either, I mean GK fluff tactics) -- and I know I've said so in the past. Land raider-only transportation -- without any of them being dedicated -- just makes no sense. GKs fight hordes and hordes and hordes of daemons, right? Wouldn't they want fast, cheap, reliable transports that can spam GKs everywhere, quickly? I would certainly think so.

 

Teleportation -- deep striking -- is not equivalent to "fast" or "mobile". It's essentially a less safe drop pod. It gets you to a single point on the tabletop ... where you're stuck. Standard mech armies can just run away from you if they like while your GKs are stupidly twiddling their thumbs.

 

I don't care what the GK fluff says about teleportation, it's just not a good tactic for an entire GK army. (In limited use, yes! Excellent! But for every GK unit? No.) Never was before (wasn't even possible because at least two of your GK units were Troops and couldn't deep strike anyway) and still isn't now. Ironically, the BA are significantly better playing all deep strike than we are because they have access to melta weaponry and built-in deep strike accuracy. GKs have neither of those things, so ... ;) . (I mean, if you're all reserves, how long will it take for your opponent to destroy all your servo skulls? Le sigh....)

 

The point of all this is that gameplay realities have always forced GK players to put down "unfluffy" armies to some extent. And that still hasn't changed.

 

What has changed is that there are at least many multiple valid army builds. We have actual tools at our disposal. Within only a few months of 5th edition's rules being released, pure GK armies ceased being any good at all and became IST armies instead.

 

This is the main reason I'm a happy camper these days. I can once again play nothing but GKs if I like. And I do like. :lol: Fluff changes are for another discussion.

[Deamon Wolf]

thanks every one im not feeling so bad now its nic to know there are ohers who miss the old knights

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Ok boys and girls the Grey Knights have been my favriout army to play and were the army that got me back in to the hobby

 

there are things in the new codex that are causing me great pain im not liking the loss of always strength 6 and all units ws 5 i can understand it with the fact that evey one has force weapons

but im not sure if all the knights needed force weapons, just the justicars and terminators the standard knights could have had rending, also im not sure the loss of true grit is a benifit or a cures as

the loss of the extra attack from the storm bolter is a very bad thing

 

dont get me wrong the codex has lots of good things and the knights are now very powerful vs marines but not really much else or that is my personal oppinon

 

please let me know if there our other grey knight vets out there who are missing the older knights

 

Oy! There's only one bit of punctuation in the whole thing up there. A comma. On top of that there is a lack of capitalization and weird line breaks everywhere, not to mention the spelling (which is easily remedied with a browser built in spell checker, lord knows I spell things wrong often too). In the future, do take some care when crafting a post, especially one that starts an entirely new thread. I am not trying to be mean here, it is just that your post was a bit painful to read.

 

Anywhoo, I am not a GK vet, but I've dealt with changes to other armies. And I pretty much roll with it. The fluff changes I think are often worse...

[bccorin]

To the OP, I know how you feel. I felt the same way as soon as I started reading rumors and it really got worse when I had the codex and read it. The fluff deflated me (another topic) and the playstyle made me miss WS5/S6/True Grit. Grey Knights introduced me to 40K. Its been my first and really only army. I lost SO many games because I didnt know what the hell I was doing but I loved the minis and just loved how different they were and how challenging they were to play. Over time I got better and but as all us GK players know there were no automatic wins with our army as time progressed. Somehow I didnt mind that in fact loved them more for it.

 

But once I got out of nostalgia land and really read this new codex, I realized just how cool these new GK can be. Psyker powers that really add to your game play, a midfield strategy that bolsters what i felt was always the GK's stong points (shooting), grenades on everyone including termies! There are so many different strats and ways to play these guys. And something else...this is NOT a beginner's army. It wasnt one in the DH codex. For that it still leaves a challenge that every GK player relishes.

[boreas]

I play a very limited number of players (3-4, although we have 3 armies each). What I really didn't like with the old DH codex was the extremely limited capacities of the codex. If my friend knew I'd play GKs, he could tool his army so easily I didn't stand a chance, ever. In fact, my friends didn't want me to play my GKs anymore, because it got boring. Of course, I tried the infamous Water Warrior tri-landraider crap. Worst game ever. I spent 60 minutes shuffling 3 models arounds...

 

Now, I must learn to play differently, but I have varied tools to use. Will I have a foot-slogger list (now viable with more models in a single list)? Will it move up with 8-12 psycannons blazing away? Will it be purifiers led by Crowe? Termies? Paladins? Interceptors? Or I might go with a mech list. But which one? Dual Stormravens for quick in-your-face action? Rhinos and razobacks? A landraider anchoring my line? Will I use a GKGM to have more scoring units? A Termie to help my models? What will my Heavies be? Dreadknights? Dreadnoughts? Will I have an =I= friend with some jokaero/servitors shooting base? A bunch of arcoflagellants? All in all, a GK list is now as unpredictable as other marine lists.

 

The other thing I didn't like was how boring the army was for a modeler/painter. A bunch of halberd PAGK, a bunch of halberd GKT, 3 Landraiders. Now, you can go crazy with the new kits. I've ordered 20 PAGK and 10 GKT and I've started to assemble them. Conclusion? I'll need twice that, at least. Add rhinos, razorbacks, stormravens, dreadknights and you've got hours of pleasure. And I could add lots of things if you're a new player (Dreads, LRs, =I=, all the warband guys, etc...).

 

Moreover, I don't feel like I've got to play IG-lite in order to be competitive.

 

I love the new dex, with all it's quirks. I love that Crowe is not a "must-take" character. All characters should have severe drawbacks and you should take them for fluff purposes, not because they unlock a WAAC list. I love that some things are not as competitive but that I want to use them because they're cool (like falchions). The one thing I don't like unconditionally is the fluff. It was ok, but not great reading. But then again, no codex fluff is really nice, compared to the longer more intense developement you get in BL novels.

 

Phil