Chaos losing it's allure - The day the fluff died

[Candleshoes]

well that is because the gav dex is very much like the early 3ed JJ chaos dex. a dex so bad that GW started doing IA articles to modify the chaos lists .

 

I won't lie, I shot coffee out of my nose from laughing. Great start to the weekend!

[Venjenz]

The minute I start an army with the sole intention of winning games, I'll know I've missed the entire point.

This hobby requires buying, building and painting models too. If I don't like the look of a model, don't think I'll want to look at it on a shelf, on the table or whatever, then how OP it is won't matter one bit because I'll never pay the money for models I don't want.

 

So my lists are goofy, but when I get them totally built and painted they'll look cool and that's enough for me. Everyone has different priorities though. If you have fun, then your money and time is well spent.

[maverike_prime]

The minute I start an army with the sole intention of winning games, I'll know I've missed the entire point.

This hobby requires buying, building and painting models too. If I don't like the look of a model, don't think I'll want to look at it on a shelf, on the table or whatever, then how OP it is won't matter one bit because I'll never pay the money for models I don't want.

 

So my lists are goofy, but when I get them totally built and painted they'll look cool and that's enough for me. Everyone has different priorities though. If you have fun, then your money and time is well spent.

 

I think you've hit the proverbial nail on the head, Venjenz. At least around this area (northern Virginia) there is an incredibly strong tournament following and there is very little "For fun" gaming. People are constantly looking for ways to min/max their squads, squeeze an extra 5 points for melta bombs in, get an earlier charge, use more flank marches, Terminator Death Star manuevers, Deep Strike 2 squads of Hammer-nators in your face, Run Vulkan with Kantor so you have scoring Stern Guard with Master Crafted Melta guns.... the list goes on. I've gotten incredible push back for trying to play fluffy as opposed to competitively even to point of not being able to find people to play because my armies aren't competitive.

[Rawne_11]

I have never chosen an army based on how good I thought they were. When I chose Chaos to get back into 40k with, I did so because I've always wanted to do chaos. I rarely lost to them when I played in 4th, so I didn't think they were epicly powerful or anything.

 

The 3.5 dex certainly had more options, and I was dissapointed to see the lack of them in the new codex when I bought it. But that was hardly enough to offset the awesomeness of chaos marines for me.

 

Painting is a big part of the hobby for me, so it's more important than gaming personally, though gaming is great too. Painting is like eating a big juicy steak, pure aweseome deciliousness. Takes some effort but the end result is worth it. Gaming is like a burger. It takes less time to prepare, its over quickly and while it tastes awesome, its just not as good as a big, medium rare steak. (If you are a vegetarian then that analogy may not be particularly effective).

 

I think the only way to offset the problems is to go with the fluffy background and mass of conversions. In terms of pure competitiveness, I don't think theres much you can do. Run the one competitive build we apparently have, and wait for the next codex. If you aren't into fluff then your options are limited.

[maverike_prime]

But how do I deal with it? Models. I'm a converter. End of Story. I tend to build the model first and then try and figure out how I can represent it in the game.

 

Like this:

 

Captured Space Wolves turned into Combat Servitors using stolen Flux Core Bolter ammo (Counts as Thousand Sons)

http://mgc-projects.info/40k-unleashed/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/cyber-wolf-group.jpg

 

I think I'm in love :blush:

Personally I am loving the lobotomized space wolves over the rest. What bitz did you use?

But Maverike did remind me that one of the most fun parts of being chaos that really makes an otherwise boring as hell codex fun is the conversion.

Seriously, there is nothing more fun than creating count-as chaos models out of the new marines.

 

yeah first time I used them was against a Space Wolf player who looked like he was going to manifest the mark of the Wulfin in my face after I explained why I had Space Wolf models next to a Thousand Sons Sorcerer.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

The hobby does need to be taken as a whole to get the full enjoyment.

 

The problem seems to be that recently, when it come to meal time (to continue the food analogy) the guy with the burger gets to eat the whole thing, while we get two bites in before getting punched in the back of the head and our steak gets stolen. :blush:

[Venjenz]

I think you've hit the proverbial nail on the head, Venjenz. At least around this area (northern Virginia) there is an incredibly strong tournament following and there is very little "For fun" gaming. People are constantly looking for ways to min/max their squads, squeeze an extra 5 points for melta bombs in, get an earlier charge, use more flank marches, Terminator Death Star manuevers, Deep Strike 2 squads of Hammer-nators in your face, Run Vulkan with Kantor so you have scoring Stern Guard with Master Crafted Melta guns.... the list goes on. I've gotten incredible push back for trying to play fluffy as opposed to competitively even to point of not being able to find people to play because my armies aren't competitive.

I am fortunate that the guy who got me into 40k, and the FLGS in our area, are more about the hobby as a whole. Some min/maxers for sure, but not a majority. And they just created 500 point rules so more folks would come and play, without needing 1750+ like most tourneys. Just to foster more folks coming in and playing, even little 45 minute matches. I am also fortunate that my one buddy lives right next to where we work, and we can run a quick 500 point match at his kitchen table just to get dice rolling going. And we share that whole "try this goofy list and tactic out" thinking. Why not? Not everything needs to be prep for Ard Boyz.

[diabloelmo]

At the end of the day, just need to remember that we are playing a game. Screw tournaments, I just want to have fun ;)

[diabloelmo]

Not that I hate the new codex, but I would like some new rules to reflect our ten thousand year old warriors.

 

I'll be the first to admit that the current 'dex is bland, and I'll salivate with the best of them when the time comes for a new one.

Hit and Run given back to the raptors would be nice, as would a nicer selection of psychic powers :)

[Lord_Caerolion]

That's the problem really. I still love my Night Lords, the codex doesn't change that, it's just that I can either have my awesome Night Lords using the sub-par Chaos list, or I can use my awesome Night Lords using a more recent, fun, list that represents them far better than the current codex can. I don't want to have lists that are simply CSM and Chosen spammed, with a few havocs and terminators in the mix. I'd much rather play Space Wolves, and get the same but with sniper-scouts and drop pods, or the Tyrants Legion list, with lots of ordnance and conscripted soldiers.

[the jeske]

I am fortunate that the guy who got me into 40k, and the FLGS in our area, are more about the hobby as a whole. Some min/maxers for sure, but not a majority. And they just created 500 point rules so more folks would come and play, without needing 1750+ like most tourneys. Just to foster more folks coming in and playing, even little 45 minute matches. I am also fortunate that my one buddy lives right next to where we work, and we can run a quick 500 point match at his kitchen table just to get dice rolling going. And we share that whole "try this goofy list and tactic out" thinking. Why not? Not everything needs to be prep for Ard Boyz

but dude it has nothing to do with hard boyz[which is 2.5k and in completly other world for chaos] . Look at the sm dex . Would a tournament player take biker list ? fewer models , screwed by other fast moving armies , screwed if objectives are on second floor etc ? But a WS player could take a full biker army play with it and dont get get kicked in the ass by an opponent of the same lvl every time .

Want more examples ? DoA BA builds . pure ones are not viable for tournament settings . too many bad match ups . But players do use them outside of tournaments , just because they like jump infantry [same dudes that used 4th ed dex for their lists] .

 

now how about chaos . can I make a demon bomb with chaos ? nope. Can I make a list using biker or raptors ? nope again . And it is not because raptors cost X more pts for a 5 man then a termicid does [with fewer weapons]. because 5 kamikaze squads dont realy make good base for a theame list . If I take 2x8-10 man raptor squads in a chaos army it brings with it self serious downsides to my list . First of all I have either 0 support[well the points for raptors have to come from somewhere] or I play with minimal troops [which sucks because 2/3 of all games are about objectives] . But that is not all , because there is nothing special about raptors [no specials rules , no upgrades save for the basic stuff every other unit gets too] both of those units need babysitters . this means lords . So now am taking bad units to upgrade other bad units while having either no support or too few troops. Now I can play against the most friendly of lists and lose , just because of how the my army is build .

 

I think a lot of people miss the fact that , if an army book has few selections at top tier of gaming , then it is the same when people play with odd builds . In fact the lack of options are a smaller problem for the tournament players because A either they play the optimized version of the build [for like 2 years] B they switch to other armies/dex C they dont care [maybe the army is there to win best painted . for example].

[Corby]

Chaos isn't a bad codex in terms of competitive army list building it can put out some incredibly nasty tournament army lists. , they've horribly boring units however with so few special rules and interesting pieces of wargear and nothing to really reflect the fact that some chaos space marines have spent 10,000 years in the warp! They've very little flexibility in terms of heavy support choices for tournament gaming , ( Ie Olbiterators) and they don't have a huge selection of tournament builds so are very much in the same boat witch-hunters , tau , necrons and Dark Angel codexs for being monobuild ( or close to monobuild) , note that they're all much older codexs than the chaos codex. I'm not saying they're terrible codexs , I'm saying they've all boring units and a lack of variety in terms of their choice of units.

[jaxjace]

<- I am an older poster who haven't read the Forum Rules on using leet/chat-speak

[Venjenz]

but dude it has nothing to do with hard boyz[which is 2.5k and in completly other world for chaos] . Look at the sm dex . Would a tournament player take biker list ? fewer models , screwed by other fast moving armies , screwed if objectives are on second floor etc ? But a WS player could take a full biker army play with it and dont get get kicked in the ass by an opponent of the same lvl every time .

Want more examples ? DoA BA builds . pure ones are not viable for tournament settings . too many bad match ups . But players do use them outside of tournaments , just because they like jump infantry [same dudes that used 4th ed dex for their lists] .

 

now how about chaos . can I make a demon bomb with chaos ? nope. Can I make a list using biker or raptors ? nope again . And it is not because raptors cost X more pts for a 5 man then a termicid does [with fewer weapons]. because 5 kamikaze squads dont realy make good base for a theame list . If I take 2x8-10 man raptor squads in a chaos army it brings with it self serious downsides to my list . First of all I have either 0 support[well the points for raptors have to come from somewhere] or I play with minimal troops [which sucks because 2/3 of all games are about objectives] . But that is not all , because there is nothing special about raptors [no specials rules , no upgrades save for the basic stuff every other unit gets too] both of those units need babysitters . this means lords . So now am taking bad units to upgrade other bad units while having either no support or too few troops. Now I can play against the most friendly of lists and lose , just because of how the my army is build .

 

I think a lot of people miss the fact that , if an army book has few selections at top tier of gaming , then it is the same when people play with odd builds . In fact the lack of options are a smaller problem for the tournament players because A either they play the optimized version of the build [for like 2 years] B they switch to other armies/dex C they dont care [maybe the army is there to win best painted . for example].

You and I view the game differently is all. I see what you're saying, and CSM has a variety of downsides in the codex. My Fabius Bile list has no elites, 1 HQ and really expensive troop units. My Typhus list is weaker on troops because to take Typhus (like Abaddon really) you are almost forced to use him a specific way, in a specific vehicle, with specific support, etc. The choices are limited, no doubt. I agree.

 

What I am pointing out is that for me, that's OK, because I just like the models, and I can put some pretty stout stuff together, even if my choices are limited in doing so. The Fabius Bile experiment list is my current favorite and is 4 troop, 3 defilers and Billy...for 2k points. 7 units in 2k points is not a lot. But those troop units are fun, since every third game, at least one unit of CSM is S6 T5 (they are marked Nurgle, since it's a nurgly list). Not the most optimized unit for sure, because they are only truly effective in cc, and when they get S6, I have to kill one every turn just from Billy's experimenting, but still a fun list.

 

And my Tzeentch list (idea stage now, as I have a Tzeentch sorcerer on a disc that is being painted now, so he'll need an army to go with him) is straight goofball fun, and whatever. 2x sorcerers on discs, 2x raptor units, a biker unit, some oblits, and whatever troops, like some Thousand Sons mixed with CSM...and some spawn, because the list is just for the fun of getting as many tries at Gift of Chaos as possible, along with fast melta on target. Will I get smoked versus a lot of lists? Sure, and I could care less, because I like the theory of a lot of jumpy Tzeentch models all prettied up in the Tzeentch color scheme hopping around the table.

 

And even if I lose, my nurgly defilers and my tzeentchy oblits/bikers/raptors will be fun models to build, paint and just look at. And someday, we'll get a new codex, and currently underpowered, underfluffed models will be OP again. Win win.

[the jeske]

Not the most optimized unit for sure, because they are only truly effective in cc, and when they get S6, I have to kill one every turn just from Billy's experimenting, but still a fun list.

ok . and ? because am missing something. your not faster then normal csm the str 6 doesnt change anything about how csm units are used[save for the fact that one dies each turn without your opponent help] and you have to run a sub par HQ to do it. But what I actualy should be asking how do your opponents let you use set ups like this ? I mean dont they know what bile csm do ? Even if they have sub standard list , its a bit like playing against necron . Very hard to not do phase out.

Again I said before am not against sub standard list . For christ sake I played NM for almost two years . But stuff should work . Not optimal is not the same as "my opponents have to let me use my army , else they table me even withe tier 2 lists". For me that is the problem with chaos . the main one . chaos gets boring very fast because there are no tier 2 armies/builds or even units. Stuff either works [and it aint even great , it just works] or is plain crap .

 

 

 

2x sorcerers on discs, 2x raptor units, a biker unit, some oblits, and whatever troops, like some Thousand Sons mixed with CSM...and some spawn, because the list is just for the fun of getting as many tries at Gift of Chaos as possible, along with fast melta on target. Will I get smoked versus a lot of lists?

2500 points list with 0 long range support ergo . anihiltated by even most basic 2.5k armies [and no I dont mean IG. I mean stuff like other chaos lists or loyalist sm]. And gift of chaos is another one of those things where your opponent has to let you use it . small range cast before moves this means opponent is somehow in the charge range for a whole turn and A he doesnt charge B he doesnt move back even 0.5" C he doesnt kill the caster. Havock builds with their skimer hate are goffy [because of the problem with dealing with AV13-14 and being more static then normal chaos lists]. gift is not . it is just bad.

 

And even if I lose, my nurgly defilers and my tzeentchy oblits/bikers/raptors will be fun models to build, paint and just look at.

and non of those 3 have anything to do with gaming , save maybe for those going for best painted , best army etc. If lets say I get a dude that is in to writing [happens in best families] and he says that chaos is cool becuase with the happy chaos family he gets to portray his characters better and gets more options in his fiction , does that mean that for the gamers who make out most of the comunity it means that the chaos dex has options ?

[Venjenz]

@the jeske

 

I am not arguing that the CSM codex is low on options. I am saying I don't care that much because the winning/losing aspect of the hobby isn't as important to me. The 3x oblits, 2x DP, 4-6x PM is the standard list. I get that. I am not arguing that. All I am saying is that there are fun options in the CSM codex, even if they aren't competitive. I wish there were more, and I wish CSM had a tourney answer to whatever is cheese list du jour, but we don't. So I find fun in the little things and goofball lists.

 

Maybe you don't, and that's cool. I hope they update the codex for folks like you to enjoy CSM more. In the meantime, nurgling up a defiler or running 500 points of plague marines is plenty fun for me.

 

We can agree to disagree.

 

EDIT - and thanks for giving me the tactical breakdown of some of my goofball ideas, like I didn't already know my Tzeentch ideas were goofy and not competitive at all. Like I don't know my Fabius Bile list has a subpar HQ and is easy to counter? I get all that...and I don't care. You seem to not be able to accept that some folks like me really just don't care about whether Fabius experimenting on CSM is a worthwhile strat, and will do it simply because IT SOUNDS COOL.

[AoC]

@the jeske

 

I am not arguing that the CSM codex is low on options. I am saying I don't care that much because the winning/losing aspect of the hobby isn't as important to me. The 3x oblits, 2x DP, 4-6x PM is the standard list. I get that. I am not arguing that. All I am saying is that there are fun options in the CSM codex, even if they aren't competitive. I wish there were more, and I wish CSM had a tourney answer to whatever is cheese list du jour, but we don't. So I find fun in the little things and goofball lists.

 

Maybe you don't, and that's cool. I hope they update the codex for folks like you to enjoy CSM more. In the meantime, nurgling up a defiler or running 500 points of plague marines is plenty fun for me.

 

We can agree to disagree.

 

EDIT - and thanks for giving me the tactical breakdown of some of my goofball ideas, like I didn't already know my Tzeentch ideas were goofy and not competitive at all. Like I don't know my Fabius Bile list has a subpar HQ and is easy to counter? I get all that...and I don't care. You seem to not be able to accept that some folks like me really just don't care about whether Fabius experimenting on CSM is a worthwhile strat, and will do it simply because IT SOUNDS COOL.

Don't you find your list plain by chance ? They are plain. And not competitive.

[Brother Nihm]

Just throwing this out there,

 

Several people here seem to have forgotten what this thread was (and should be) about.

 

Please allow me to help you remember:

 

So, my point is that our units don't FEEL quite as great as other units do. They don't really have rules accurately representing their fluff portrayals. Does anyone else find this, and how do you counter it?

[AoC]

Just throwing this out there,

 

Several people here seem to have forgotten what this thread was (and should be) about.

 

Please allow me to help you remember:

 

So, my point is that our units don't FEEL quite as great as other units do. They don't really have rules accurately representing their fluff portrayals. Does anyone else find this, and how do you counter it?

When thousand years old veterans have worse stats and lack in equipment and special rules department than mere century old newbies ? Of course they don't feel as portrayed correctly. They behave like squishy marines, with plain rules and subpar equipment. When our units forget how to use drop pods, killed off all their apothecaries but one, suffer from 'no support from dark mechanicus' and our daemons are outclassed by most troops and die to sniff breeeze ? Of course i feel they are not proper representation of powerful chaos forces, that are major threat.

 

For example Chaos Lord - now every captain is on par with him, except that captains sport better protection and ya know, some variety.

[Rik Riorik]

Counter it by playing Counts as and using different codexes. Might not feel entirely right, but its a way of spicing it up at least.

Whilst doing that wait for a new Codex. It might take a while but with every new Codex released I feel more and more assured that the next Choas Codex is going to snap, crackle and pop :(.

[Legatus]

So, my point is that our units don't FEEL quite as great as other units do. They don't really have rules accurately representing their fluff portrayals. Does anyone else find this, and how do you counter it?

The HQ choices in the Codex Chaos Space Marines are not very interesting. All the units (at least most of them) are actually pretty good. The problem is that they are good in their default setting, and cannot really be furtehr customised.

 

Imagine Khorne Berserkers were simply Fearless Marines with 2 base attacks for 19 points. You then have the option to upgrade them with either WS 5 for +1 point or with Furious Charge for +1 point. And if your general has the Mark of Khorne, then you can get both options for squads. That would be pretty neat, wouldn't it? Well, that's what you allways get.

 

Or what if Plague Marines were simply fearless Marines with T5 and Ini 3 for 17 points per model? But you then have the option to upgrade the entire squad with plague grenades for +1 point per model or with Feel no Pain for +5 points per model. A nice upgrade, making the unit even harder. But they allways come with that.

 

What if Chaos Marines were just like loyalists but with Ld 9 instead of ATSKNF for a reduced 14 points? And then you can upgrade the squad with close combat weapons for +1 point per model.

 

Such choices are fun, and there are fewer in the current Codex Chaos Space Marines or the current Codex Dark Angels. You basically pick a unit, add one or two special weapons, and are done. You don't really get to customise and personalise your units. Even though loyalists don't really have that much more options for their units. Though their HQs and Sergeants do have a bit more gear to chose from.

[axabrax]

The codex needs an update indeed, and I too miss the days when all our daemons weren't one stat line, but saying that the "fluff" has become boring is pretty subjective and way off base. The chaos fluff is some of the best in the game and one of the main reasons I got into 40K. The models are also much more interesting than the Space Marines' , which are truly "boring" to some extent, as they are all variations off one theme. It sounds to me like maybe you've just been playing Chaos too long and need to kick around another army for a while, but don't blame it on the fluff or the models! :)

[AoC]

So, my point is that our units don't FEEL quite as great as other units do. They don't really have rules accurately representing their fluff portrayals. Does anyone else find this, and how do you counter it?

The HQ choices in the Codex Chaos Space Marines are not very interesting. All the units (at least most of them) are actually pretty good. The problem is that they are good in their default setting, and cannot really be furtehr customised.

 

Imagine Khorne Berserkers were simply Fearless Marines with 2 base attacks for 19 points. You then have the option to upgrade them with either WS 5 for +1 point or with Furious Charge for +1 point. And if your general has the Mark of Khorne, then you can get both options for squads. That would be pretty neat, wouldn't it? Well, that's what you allways get.

 

Or what if Plague Marines were simply fearless Marines with T5 and Ini 3 for 17 points per model? But you then have the option to upgrade the entire squad with plague grenades for +1 point per model or with Feel no Pain for +5 points per model. A nice upgrade, making the unit even harder. But they allways come with that.

 

What if Chaos Marines were just like loyalists but with Ld 9 instead of ATSKNF for a reduced 14 points? And then you can upgrade the squad with close combat weapons for +1 point per model.

 

Such choices are fun, and there are fewer in the current Codex Chaos Space Marines or the current Codex Dark Angels. You basically pick a unit, add one or two special weapons, and are done. You don't really get to customise and personalise your units. Even though loyalists don't really have that much more options for their units. Though their HQs and Sergeants do have a bit more gear to chose from.

 

Yeah, hq choices are very boring indeed. I would like to see way more variety in HQ department. Imagine that you have:

-Chaos Lords/Exalted Champions

-Chaos Champions

-Daemon Princes

 

All characters can become psykers and be marked.

 

Chaos Lords are powerful combatants that are also leaders of the warband and thus increase strategical options available. He can be gifted with monstrosity (thus looking like similar to current daemon prince model, but with different legs and head, think as big marine - old deamon prince model is actually good idea how he would look like after said gift). WS7 S5 T5 W4 A4 by default, exalted champions would have lesser statline, think WS6 S5 T4 W3 A3.

Chaos Champions are less powerful than Lords, but less costly and you can buy multiple from one slot. Think WS6 S/T4 W2 A2

Daemon Princes act totally different than currently, they would have option to get monstrosity gift (as lords), but they would enter play as summoned units, and would expand range of available daemons (think daemonic knights acting as bodyguards, either big ones or small ones, also other daemons available as 'retinue'), 2 statlines - cheaper and more expensive one.

 

So all choices would be meaningful, each will have it's strengths and weaknesses. I scrapped sorcerers as any HQ can be sorcerer. HQ choices would directly influence force organisation chart, for example champion in terminator armor with mark of nurgle would make nurglesque terminators troops, lord with same mark would make chosen terminators troops.

 

(maybe even make difference between daemon princes who were formerly chaos marines and those who weren't, so give us TWO daemon princes entries, each with variable power level)

 

Also, greater daemons could be another hq choices, that also allow daemonic builds, but done differently than marine princes.

 

About your idea that troops are decent, i disagree, they are boring. I would like to see more choices, for example i don't see the reason why our troops can't pick more power weapons/fists/special weapons, why chaos is so rigid in the department ? We are not bound to codex astartes, chaos is about freedom of choice. Would it be broken ? No way, as long as it would be thought out correctly.

 

I feel that mark itself should not give any special rules, gifts that come from the mark should. IMO, every chaos god should have gifts that he can cast on his followers. Taking nurgle as an example, he could grant gifts that spread corruption, gifts that increase survival rate of his followers and gifts that give immunity against fear of death, not to mention gifts that grant the model little maggot companions or even friendly nurglings or spawns, after all papa nurgle care about his little followers :)

[Mr. Sandbot]

I agree. This codex does indeed need an update, but complaing about it certainly doesn't make it more fun.

Personally, I'm starting to enjoy modelling and kitbashing to spite loyalist marines that I play now. Been trying to work on my own lobotomized and plague space wolves (thanks for the inspiration maverike).

I will say, possessed black templar make every game far more hilarious.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The HQ choices in the Codex Chaos Space Marines are not very interesting. All the units (at least most of them) are actually pretty good. The problem is that they are good in their default setting, and cannot really be furtehr customised.

 

Imagine Khorne Berserkers were simply Fearless Marines with 2 base attacks for 19 points. You then have the option to upgrade them with either WS 5 for +1 point or with Furious Charge for +1 point. And if your general has the Mark of Khorne, then you can get both options for squads. That would be pretty neat, wouldn't it? Well, that's what you allways get.

 

Or what if Plague Marines were simply fearless Marines with T5 and Ini 3 for 17 points per model? But you then have the option to upgrade the entire squad with plague grenades for +1 point per model or with Feel no Pain for +5 points per model. A nice upgrade, making the unit even harder. But they allways come with that.

 

What if Chaos Marines were just like loyalists but with Ld 9 instead of ATSKNF for a reduced 14 points? And then you can upgrade the squad with close combat weapons for +1 point per model.

 

Such choices are fun, and there are fewer in the current Codex Chaos Space Marines or the current Codex Dark Angels. You basically pick a unit, add one or two special weapons, and are done. You don't really get to customise and personalise your units. Even though loyalists don't really have that much more options for their units. Though their HQs and Sergeants do have a bit more gear to chose from.

 

And you know what's even better? The way you can do it with other units, like your terminators! I love my Plague Terminators, with their Feel No Pain!... oh wait. Nope, that excuse doesn't work for anything other than Cult Units. It's awesome for them, don't get me wrong, but since when did Nurgle Lords mysteriously get healthy again once they stopped being a basic grunt? Why is there no such thing as a noise terminator?

 

You say that Chaos players "don't really get to customise or personalise" their units. That's pretty much an integral part of what Chaos used to be. Loyalists get their Chapter Tactics and its numerous variants, which serve to match them to their fluff pretty damn well. At the moment, Loyalists are much more customisable than Chaos can be. Chaos can do a lot of themes weakly, but Loyalists can do a single theme well.