SolomonDemeter Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Ok first off hello! ;) Secondly, please don't spoil me, I read all books of Horus Heresy from "Horus rising" until "Descent of Angels". Please don't mention anything happening after this novels or outside of this novels. - When Solomon Demeter rushed to help Lucius, why the hell did no one say anything to him? Something like "Solomon, we are not the traitors, Lucius is the one!" He might not have belevied them, but there is no reason why they would not even try to convince him? - If the emperor is really as mighty as everyone claims, why does he not know about the Chaos and the Chaos gods? And if he does, even worse, why doesn't he tell/warn his Primarchs and Astrates? - I didn't get how Horus could have turned against his father, especially as the primarchs are described as very intelligent. He believes a jerk who disguises as a dead astrates more than his brother? He, such an intelligent and appreciated character get's corrupted so easily? I don't know, a little bit of grudge didn't sum up for me so hight that it would explain turning him into an evil monster. - This is not really a logical flaw in the books but hit me nontheless. The novels made me doubt that the emperor really has noble intentions. People get slaughtered just because of insulting the empror, I mean is that what a god like, enlightend being wants? They don't even get a trial. They force the plantes to join them, if they don't agree 100 % they get annihilated - That more sounds like fashism than golden age. They even turn wonderfull plantes into smoking dead rocks. I never knew all the details about WH40K, but when playing the games I thought of the Emperor of a noble being, but when reading the books I am not so sure about that any more. If I understood it correctly he even used dark warp powers to create his Primarchs. And I'm not really sure yet if they were scattered acroos the galaxy really by accident ... Even if he did it with good intentions he must not have lied to his sons! - After having finished reading descent of angels I also don't see why the Lion wants to get rid of his Astrates with psychic powers. I mean they helped him destroy the chaos daemon, he smiled at Israfael after they defeated it (sign of being thankfull and agreeing to what they have done?). That really went a little bit too fast to me, but maybe it get's explained int he next novels. I know there is another one about the Dark Angels. - There were a few more things but I don't remember them right now, if they come to my mind I will let you know :( Other than that I love the novels and can't wait to read the next ones. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227247-things-that-annoy-me-about-the-novels-spoilers-inside/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dràyhèn Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 If the emperor is really as mighty as everyone claims, why does he not know about the Chaos and the Chaos gods? And if he does, even worse, why doesn't he tell/warn his Primarchs and Astrates? It goes this way: The Emperor knew of their existence and what they were capable of, he just didn't want his generals and sons to know purely because it was in his opinion, it seems, an uncontrollable threat. Besides, the Gods found their way into the Primarchs' heads only through some colossally huge efforts. Infiltrating the tendrils of corruption into the ranks of the Word Bearers and finding a way to hurt Horus and let him see... those were no small achievements and A Thousand Sons seemed to suggest that these plans were set in motion centuries ago. I didn't get how Horus could have turned against his father, especially as the primarchs are described as very intelligent. He believes a jerk who disguises as a dead astrates more than his brother? He, such an intelligent and appreciated character get's corrupted so easily? I don't know, a little bit of grudge didn't sum up for me so hight that it would explain turning him into an evil monster. The Primarchs weren't infallible, not at all. They had the same faults any mortal could have, albeit in a scale far beyond mortals'. Horus' flaw was his pride, his ambition. As a general exclusively created for war, he feared there might be no wars to fight one day. Also, remember about Horus not being told of Chaos? How could he have know the visions were created to deceive him. He was seduced in his grievously wounded, comatose-state. Magnus tried to help, but the visions felt more real to Horus. Then there's the whole suggestion of his father going to Terra in order to achieve godhood. This is not really a logical flaw in the books but hit me nontheless. The novels made me doubt that the emperor really has noble intentions. The nature of his plans and schemes is up to debate, but the consensus seems to be that he tried to act for the betterment of mankind. Altough it's not clear, mostly because these novels purposefully challenge that view at times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227247-things-that-annoy-me-about-the-novels-spoilers-inside/#findComment-2721953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Shady Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 - After having finished reading descent of angels I also don't see why the Lion wants to get rid of his Astrates with psychic powers. I mean they helped him destroy the chaos daemon, he smiled at Israfael after they defeated it (sign of being thankfull and agreeing to what they have done?). That really went a little bit too fast to me, but maybe it get's explained int he next novels. I know there is another one about the Dark Angels. He isn't the first Primarch to have doubts and even be mistrustful about psychic powers, hence why the Council of Nikea happend. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227247-things-that-annoy-me-about-the-novels-spoilers-inside/#findComment-2722042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 the Emperor is known to have told an accurate description of the Warp and its entities to atleast 1 primarch, Magnus the Red, according to the Collected Heresy books. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227247-things-that-annoy-me-about-the-novels-spoilers-inside/#findComment-2722054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 - When Solomon Demeter rushed to help Lucius, why the hell did no one say anything to him? Something like "Solomon, we are not the traitors, Lucius is the one!" He might not have belevied them, but there is no reason why they would not even try to convince him? In that chapter, it is stated that Lucius was the deadliest killer in the 3rd Legion and that he dispatched his foes miraculously quickly, almost beyond belief. If he started to kill while his 4 demi-squads were at their posts, he could move through them, with the element of surprise and confusion, incredibly quickly. Once this attack starts and the marines begin to realize what is going on/fighting back, Demeter rushes in and sees Lucius being attacked and furiously attacks the other side. After reading it again, the scene was over in seconds, no time at all for dialogue. “Convincing” was not an option. - - If the emperor is really as mighty as everyone claims, why does he not know about the Chaos and the Chaos gods? And if he does, even worse, why doesn't he tell/warn his Primarchs and Astrates? He knows more about the warp and chaos, then any “human” in existence and most certainly knew intimately the details of the chaos gods (just how much and how far is revealed later in the series). He wants to keep humanity ignorant of chaos, in order to protect it. The logic behind this is much debated, but there is recent microcosms, that ring that the Lion did much the same on Caliban, keeping the truth from the Calabanites to protect them, after he himself lived among the hellish wilds of a world that seeped chaos. His rational is a little easier to understand, so the jump to the Emperor and Humanity isn’t as big. Both failed, obviously, but not for their lack of trying. The Emperor did warn the Primarchs, but the depth of the warning was … shallow, shall we say. - - I didn't get how Horus could have turned against his father, especially as the primarchs are described as very intelligent. He believes a jerk who disguises as a dead astrates more than his brother? He, such an intelligent and appreciated character get's corrupted so easily? I don't know, a little bit of grudge didn't sum up for me so hight that it would explain turning him into an evil monster. Horus is ambition given body and he has the intelligence to match. What most people don’t realize was that he locked himself away for 16 weeks while in warp travel, after he emerged from Davin. Think about that, “Brightest Star” amongst the primarchs, the first among equals, took 16 weeks to judge his actions. What would be lost, what would be gained, who the players are, where the Imperium stands, where are the greatest threats, what are the largest cracks, what his brother primarchs may do if stagnation or peace occurs, what his brother primarchs are already doing … this is a hell of a problem. He is the Warmaster and the beating heart of humanity’s information. He isn’t corrupted “so easily”, and that scene isn’t written to be taken like that. It is meant to show how much tarnish there really is on the serving platter already, and that everything is not roses. For the record, he already is an “evil monster”, he was created to kill en masse and to rule what is left. That is him on a good day, he is not a friendly individual, and his enterprise, and that of his family, is the extermination of ideals against the Emperor’s will, and everything and everyone that it may entail. - - This is not really a logical flaw in the books but hit me nontheless. The novels made me doubt that the emperor really has noble intentions. People get slaughtered just because of insulting the empror, I mean is that what a god like, enlightend being wants? They don't even get a trial. They force the plantes to join them, if they don't agree 100 % they get annihilated - That more sounds like fashism than golden age. They even turn wonderfull plantes into smoking dead rocks. I never knew all the details about WH40K, but when playing the games I thought of the Emperor of a noble being, but when reading the books I am not so sure about that any more. If I understood it correctly he even used dark warp powers to create his Primarchs. And I'm not really sure yet if they were scattered acroos the galaxy really by accident ... Even if he did it with good intentions he must not have lied to his sons! Like Homer’s “Illiad”, many of the characters in the HH series have been given a single signifier, a characteristic that can be used, instead of their name, and the reader will still recognize them. (Illiad Ex: Achilles – Swift Runner | Hector – The Great Helmed) (HH Ex: Magnus: The Crimson King | Horus: The Brighest Star). The Emperor has been known in several books now, since Legion, as Bloodthirsty. His intentions are not “noble” in the sense you use the word, but as the series progresses, and the “veil is lifted” you begin to get a peek at the man behind the curtain. He is an immensely complex character who, we have the luxury of knowing the ending already, and it sometimes skews our view of why he does things. You are bang on, why he set out on the Great Crusade is not a pleasant endeavor; he is taking back mankind’s birthright of the stars. It really is his way, or the sword. He is in no way a “noble” being, but he wears the burden of all mankind on his shoulders, as well as his own machinations. It is harsh, but you must continue to read the series in order to patchwork more of why is does the things he does. - After having finished reading descent of angels I also don't see why the Lion wants to get rid of his Astrates with psychic powers. I mean they helped him destroy the chaos daemon, he smiled at Israfael after they defeated it (sign of being thankfull and agreeing to what they have done?). That really went a little bit too fast to me, but maybe it get's explained int he next novels. I know there is another one about the Dark Angels. You’ll understand why farther into the series. A Thousand Sons is an eye opener about what ignorance can do. This rings of the same stuff as my microcosm point above. The 2nd Dark Angel book is MUCH better in my opinion, and you really get a lot more of a clear look into why the Lion acts the way he does, what the Lion’s faults and shortcomings are, and just how far things can spiral out of control, from the smallest misunderstanding. Also, the characters in the books are all deeply flawed, even Israfael, and the future shows how good intentions can corrupt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227247-things-that-annoy-me-about-the-novels-spoilers-inside/#findComment-2722345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolomonDemeter Posted April 13, 2011 Author Share Posted April 13, 2011 Thanks for the insights, especially yours Candleshoes as they were by far the best ones and more important without spoilers ... I'll keep on reading and guess things will get clearer. Although I still don't agree that the other Astrates didn't have time to talk to Demeter. I mean if they would have fought against two other Astrates, well ok, they might have been two slow to react. But they fought against I think 20 or 30? Even if Lucius has already slayn half of them, there should be a few spare seconds to say some words, even more Lucius calls the other traitors, there is really no explaination why they should not react on that in my eyes. And concerning Horus I'm talking about his "dreams" when being on Davin, when he decides against the Emperor, not how he reacts afterwards. I mean afterwards he is already tainted, and decided himself to head for one path. That's ok, I guess a Primarch always gives 100 % for what he fights, and if this is an evil path well than the corruption grows fast ... But still when being in this dream where he met Magnus and Erebus, it doesn't really work out for me how he could have deceided against his father. He was shown the future by Erebus who even diguised himself, he figured this out and didn't get suspicious? I mean not everything went well, he was not happy with the administration from Terra which was set in by the Emperor, or that the Emperor left the crusade, but overall was there really something such tragical that he turned back to the thing which was the most holy one to him before hand? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227247-things-that-annoy-me-about-the-novels-spoilers-inside/#findComment-2722853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 One thing to note, and again, you'll understand more as you get into the more recent books, the deck was SEVERELY stacked against Horus, before he even stepped foot on Davin. You get a little glimpse of what happened, but the why is never explained in the books you've hit. Why Magnus failed (and what that failure really means), why Magnus could not be trusted, why Erebus was so driven, why with all of Horus' intellect did he choose what he chose. These are great questions, and both have entire novels dedicated to telling the why. There are MANY parts to the puzzle, many sides, and all think they are right, or rather, that they are on center stage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227247-things-that-annoy-me-about-the-novels-spoilers-inside/#findComment-2722874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ju'kosian Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 The turning of Horus seems sudden and fast, but it's kinda hard to put all things in a novel. The turning of horus could have taken years, mutliple events etc.. If you keep in mind that the chaos gods started the whole thing centuries before things suggest that it indeed took very long to turn Horus. It's hard to cram all that in just a few novels.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227247-things-that-annoy-me-about-the-novels-spoilers-inside/#findComment-2723227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abaddonshand Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 The thing that gets to me are the historical inaccuracies, such as assault cannon being used by dreadnoughts, as happens in numerous books. Assault cannon didnt exist during the heresy, they were a development from the autocannon prevalent at the time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227247-things-that-annoy-me-about-the-novels-spoilers-inside/#findComment-2727237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 That might be a retcon? If they're depicted in the artbooks, the authors might have considered themselves given licence to use them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227247-things-that-annoy-me-about-the-novels-spoilers-inside/#findComment-2727238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abaddonshand Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 I hope not, if it is then chaos space marines should be toting assault cannon on their dreadnoughts and terminators :-/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227247-things-that-annoy-me-about-the-novels-spoilers-inside/#findComment-2727732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I recall on a QandA session on youtube, Dan Abnett gets asked that very thing, and he responds by saying that it (and other similair items) are usually written as a generalization to get the point across, not to be taken as a literal change. Auto-cannon = "The double barreled aussault cannon whirred and clacked dry, as the sound of its completion rang across the burned out building." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227247-things-that-annoy-me-about-the-novels-spoilers-inside/#findComment-2727862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 - I didn't get how Horus could have turned against his father, especially as the primarchs are described as very intelligent. He believes a jerk who disguises as a dead astrates more than his brother? He, such an intelligent and appreciated character get's corrupted so easily? I don't know, a little bit of grudge didn't sum up for me so hight that it would explain turning him into an evil monster. The Primarchs, while physiologically superior to everyone but the Emperor, were still very susceptible emotionally. Their prides, ambitions, honors, fears; these are very human aspects that many people might sometimes overlook simply because the Primarchs are supposed to be the paragons of perfection. They're corruption was also not something that happened "over a little grudge" or in a short period of time. Events in their lives and in the galaxy were probably manipulated for decades, if not a century or more, to make every element perfect for the fall of the Primarchs. Think of it as a chess game. Assuming two grand masters at the helm (the Emperor and the Chaos Gods), no chess game will be over in a handful of moves. It will take dozens to maneuver and counter-maneuver the pieces into the perfect position so that one player will checkmate the other. Multiply that a thousand fold and you'll have a small idea just how much effort really went in to turning the nine traitor Primarchs. - This is not really a logical flaw in the books but hit me nontheless. The novels made me doubt that the emperor really has noble intentions. People get slaughtered just because of insulting the empror, I mean is that what a god like, enlightend being wants? They don't even get a trial. They force the plantes to join them, if they don't agree 100 % they get annihilated - That more sounds like fashism than golden age. They even turn wonderfull plantes into smoking dead rocks. I never knew all the details about WH40K, but when playing the games I thought of the Emperor of a noble being, but when reading the books I am not so sure about that any more. If I understood it correctly he even used dark warp powers to create his Primarchs. And I'm not really sure yet if they were scattered acroos the galaxy really by accident ... Even if he did it with good intentions he must not have lied to his sons! You have to understand that the Emperor's life has spanned the aeons. Literally tens of thousands of years, and at the outset of the Great Crusade, his life as the individual we know as the Emperor has already been 40,000 years (he was born around 8,000 BC somewhere in Anatolia). This isn't, of course, including the spans of years the many shamans lived before they all collectively reincarnated as the Emperor. In fact, the mass-suicide and reincarnation of the last thousands of mankind's Shamans to "create" the Emperor can be attributed to the foresight of the threats of the warp, difficulty of reincarnation, and perhaps foreknowledge of certain things to pass. The Emperor has noble intentions, but he is not above getting his hands dirty to get the job done. Always remember that the Emperor couldn't care less about the individual (except perhaps the Primarchs); his concern isn't with the survival of a handful million or billions of humans. His goal is the survival of EVERY man, woman and child not just in this age, but in the eternity-age to come. He is re-establishing humanity's birthright of the stars, and the building of an empire that will endure the ages and ensure the survival of uncounted trillions upon trillions of people spread across the galaxy. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227247-things-that-annoy-me-about-the-novels-spoilers-inside/#findComment-2728365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICHD? Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 If the emperor is really as mighty as everyone claims, why does he not know about the Chaos and the Chaos gods? And if he does, even worse, why doesn't he tell/warn his Primarchs and Astrates? Consider this: Your Dad spends years and years telling you there are no gods, faerie folk, hobbits, elves, daemons, spirits etc etc, then one day he comes to you and goes "Oh by the way, there ARE Gods, but they're evil and they lie all the time. Total bumwipes. Don't listen to them." What would you think? I didn't get how Horus could have turned against his father, especially as the primarchs are described as very intelligent. He believes a jerk who disguises as a dead astrates more than his brother? He, such an intelligent and appreciated character get's corrupted so easily? I don't know, a little bit of grudge didn't sum up for me so hight that it would explain turning him into an evil monster. Got to second the "not infalliable" thing. After the Ullanor campaign, IIRC, Horus even tried to convince Daddy Emperor to give the title of Warmaster to someone else because he wasn't so sure he'd be up to it! This is not really a logical flaw in the books but hit me nontheless. The novels made me doubt that the emperor really has noble intentions. There is a school of thought that The Emperor planned the whole thing bar getting killed by Horus. Just sayin..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227247-things-that-annoy-me-about-the-novels-spoilers-inside/#findComment-2728794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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