Annoyed at how anatomically incorrect the models are.

[Deus de Mortalis]

This bugs me all the time about space marines. And I'm not talking about their private parts you sickos! First of all are the heads. GW has made some heads the correct size. Like the heads on the old metal scouts and space wolves sprue were all proportioned accurately to the size of the model, but most are not. Most bare plastic heads are just way too big and wide. Also their placement on some models is ridiculous. Like on terminators, especially any metal terminator figures, the head is not placed above the torso, but in front of the chest. Just look at Logan Grimnar to see the most prominent example of what I'm talking about. Next, but of equal annoyance comes the legs. Just like the heads, there are two problems with many of them. On many models, the thighs are thinner than twigs, and that is after being covered in power or terminator armor! Most, if not all terminators are pretty bad offenders. Also the plastic assault marines are pretty bad too. And since forgeworld pretty obviously borrowed the assault marine legs to make the legs for their mk4 armor, that and the rest of their power armor legs are super skinny. By far the worst though is forgeworld's Mk2 and Mk3 armor. Look at the back of the thighs and I dare you not to cringe at how the marine under that armor must be as thin as a skeleton. I still get nightmares from when I saw them at games day last august and my own set I pre-ordered arrived a week later in the mail. Now the second part that bothers me is how the legs aren't positioned underneath the hips like most bipedal hominids, but to the side of the hips. How far apart some legs are at the torso is actually quite bad when you think about it. Lastly this isn't so much an issue about being anatomically correct, but about their stance. Almost everyone is standing with their feet shoulder-width apart (or more!) and their knees are bent. Try standing like that, and notice how uncomfortable and unnatural it is. That is all I could really think of for now.

 

So how am I able to still play a vehicle-light marine army? I use metal scouts (imo the best metal figures GW ever produced. RIP), only use the smaller sized plastic bare heads or just use helmets on my marines in power armor, and don't use terminators (although if I did I would only use plastics and bulk up their thighs with greenstuff). Also as much as it pained me considering how long I had been longing them (8+ years), I turned around and sold my forgeworld marines on ebay.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Lastly this isn't so much an issue about being anatomically correct, but about their stance. Almost everyone is standing with their feet shoulder-width apart (or more!) and their knees are bent. Try standing like that, and notice how uncomfortable and unnatural it is.

It may not be "natural" per se, but it doesn't seem unnatural to me and it's not uncomfortable.

I'd imagine any other martial arts practitioners would agree with me.

The Space Marine stance is quite relaxed and simple compared to something like a proper Ichimonji no Kamae, for example.

And, given the colossal benefits to your stability in that posture, I can easily see why Marines would stand that way.

[NemFX]

1987 called. They want their complaint back.

[Redfinger]

1987 called. They want their complaint back.

 

 

LOL!!! :)

[Shadey]

Most Citadel miniatures are heroic 28mm scale which has larger heads and hands to emphasize them on the otherwise very small miniature, also because of the limitations of the materials and casting process.

 

Terminators do have their heads on top of their neck and shoulders. The armour is massively thick over the top of the shoulders (more so than any other part including the side of the shoulders) and the back of the armour is extended up over the back of the head which gives the impression you are talking about but it is clear enough on even a cursory glance that they are fine.

 

The old chaos warrior regiment, now they were malformed hunchbacks. My first ever conversions turned them into towering fear inspiring properly formed heavily armoured death machines, all by placing the helms on top of the shoulders.

 

I would agree legs and arms can be a little thin however.

[Hemal]

The older terminators were woefully antomically incorrect - the new ones are far better. Logan is a brdige between the two sets - he was created before the current plastic SM and the Grey Knights Terminators were developed.

 

As for the rest - I'd imagine the power armour is scaled appropriately to look good on a table top - in reall scale I'd agree that thethighs are far too narrow and that the hips are too wide. Except for say Gabriel Seth and some of the masters of the chapter - which look quite good...

[Brother_Ovis]

Some of the issues can be explained by the "heroic 28mm", but I cannot agree that termies are anatomically correct. BTW the same goes for the plastic scouts. Human being is basically build on one vertical plane, which means that head, shoulders and torso should be aligned on that plane. With termies and scouts this is not the case - their arms sockets seem to be moved too far back. Also the shoulders of the terminators are too high compared to their heads.

 

When talking about anatomical incorrectnesses - nobody seems to notice that the very power armour as it is portrayed in artwork and models has NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER TO WORK. I have some experience with wearing and making actual metal armour and can tell you that with such closely fitted elements the movement of the individual wearing it would be restricted almost impossibly. For example, if you were wearing marines PA as portrayed, you would:

 

- not be able to reach your hands forward. The maximum width of a breastplate on your chest is ca 25cm (10") for a man of average build (kind of "nipple to nipple"), anything larger prevents your for reaching forward without rotating your hips. So with a breastplate reaching from arm joint to arm joint you would most probably be unable to hold anything in two hands, because you wouldn't be able to reach them both forward at the same time. Say bye to bolters :D

 

- not be able to bend your arms all the way. First - the allowance on the inside of the joint is too small (I'd say they can't bend their arm more than 80-90 degrees). Second - the elbow guard is too shallow to accomodate the elbow when bent AND there would be holes between it and the forearm/upper arm guards*. If you want your arm armour to bend anatomically and without holes opening up, you need a deep elbow guard with articulated lames**. The same goes for leg armour.

 

- the 60'ties hippie style shin guards are cool to look at, but must be hellishly uncomfortable to move in or run. Wrap two large pillows around your calves and try to run without tripping on your own legs ;)

 

*All these elements have their proper names, I just can't remember them in English now and besides I'm not sure if everyone knows what they mean :D

**Look up some late 15th-early 16th cent. suits of armour for reference. They're pretty much all-enclosing and it was fully possible to do a hand stand or a cartwheel wearing them.

[Commander Sasha]

To Ovis: I use a few Warmachine figures, notably Commander Sorscha, and claim her skinny-fit armour is Artificer armour: the 'art' is not in drawing all over it, but in making it lighter, faster and better fitting. What is your opinion of Privateer Press' armour modelling style? More viable, or still nonsense?

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/file/view/sorscha.jpg/32362253/sorscha.jpg

Have you any links to good images of full body armour from the period you mentioned, that might be converted to powered armour, bearing in mind room has to be made for muscle fibres, internal connections etc?

Could be interesting source material for art-scale marines!

[Zincite]

Lastly this isn't so much an issue about being anatomically correct, but about their stance. Almost everyone is standing with their feet shoulder-width apart (or more!) and their knees are bent. Try standing like that, and notice how uncomfortable and unnatural it is.

It may not be "natural" per se, but it doesn't seem unnatural to me and it's not uncomfortable.

I'd imagine any other martial arts practitioners would agree with me.

The Space Marine stance is quite relaxed and simple compared to something like a proper Ichimonji no Kamae, for example.

And, given the colossal benefits to your stability in that posture, I can easily see why Marines would stand that way.

 

Hmm. Beat to it again.

 

But as TEC siad, it's used as a very defensive posture. Not very good for attacking, but very very good stability. If you stand like that with your weight in the middle, as if sitting on a high-ish stool with your legs wide apart, Then it becomes unstable, though it can be used to get round to the back of your opponent's neck, kidneys, or whatever takes you fancy. Since most Games Workshop miniatures are in a 'At the second line in the unit' stance this defensive standing would seem to be quite reasonable.

 

I think, as others have said in far greater detail, that it's because the models look less 'killy' as the Orks would put it. Look at the pictures in the SM codex showing the non-ultra chapters. These look true-scale, and are far less dynamic.

 

Just in my own opinion on all counts of course.

[cathar the great]

1987 called. They want their complaint back.

 

Basically this, though without the half hidden insult.

 

You either like the design of the Marines or not. Of course their armor doesn't make sense, of course normally you wouldn't be able to fit into armor like that. Looking at people cosplaying Marines gives you a little vision of how silly real life Space Marines would look.

 

If you're really that bothered by the armor, either make an effort to convert and change the miniatures, or play with other armies/miniatures. If you take a look around on these boards, there are many logs on true-scaling single Marines or even whole armies. On the other hand, there are even more logs showing how much you can achieve by simply going with the design we have.

 

Yeah, I'd love to have Marines that look anatomically correct, but GW seems more intent on adding bling to the minis (see Sang Guard and Grey Knights) than actually developing/evolving them into something more pleasing. And to be honest, I can't blame them. They tried to go another way with the Dreadknight and almost all topics on those deal with how to change the design to look more like older ones. And now I've come off-topic, so I'll just leave my jumbled thoughts here for you to decypher (or ignore, whatevers ^^)

[Hellios]

Yo dude if the models upset you... you better not read the background... a lot of that stuff isn't very realistic or accurate.... Crazy Sci-Fi writers... when will they learn!

[Psy-Crow]

You think the marines are bad, you really don't want to look at the termie libbie, missing most of his abdomen.

[Brother_Ovis]

To Ovis: I use a few Warmachine figures, notably Commander Sorscha, and claim her skinny-fit armour is Artificer armour: the 'art' is not in drawing all over it, but in making it lighter, faster and better fitting. What is your opinion of Privateer Press' armour modelling style? More viable, or still nonsense?

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/file/view/sorscha.jpg/32362253/sorscha.jpg

Have you any links to good images of full body armour from the period you mentioned, that might be converted to powered armour, bearing in mind room has to be made for muscle fibres, internal connections etc?

Could be interesting source material for art-scale marines!

 

No links at hand, sorry. Try googling "maximilian armour" and expand from there ;) As to the PP armour - I am not overly familiar with their products so I can just tell something about the model from the photo you've shown:

 

- with a rigid plate reaching from her neck to lower abdomen she would be unable to bend. Unarticulated breastplate should end just above your navel, otherwise it just stiffens you upright. You could crouch, but not bend. Been there, done that :)

 

- the arm joint issue also applies here. Human body is not an action figure, when you reach forward you employ a good part of your chest, so there has to be some allowance for that. Of course that depends on the shoulders-chest width ratio.

 

The only anatomically correct miniatures I can remember off the top of my head are the Perrys' products, but they're historical models, not SF or fantasy. BUT they make a very good conversion material for IG, Inquisition etc.

 

You either like the design of the Marines or not. Of course their armor doesn't make sense, of course normally you wouldn't be able to fit into armor like that. Looking at people cosplaying Marines gives you a little vision of how silly real life Space Marines would look.

 

I love the minis and I accept their nonsenseness with arms wide open, I was just saying :)