Brotherhood Banner

[Son of Rawl]

I'm looking through the army lists posted here and I'm wondering why the Brotherhood Banner is not being used? Perma active Force Weapons with no test needed sounds pretty nice to me for the price.

[DeathKorpsman]

Reasons it is good:

 

1) Auto success to activate NFW, which means you have at least one psychic power you can count on if someone is stifling your creativity with a Psychic Hood Shadow in the Warp or similar.

 

2) Bonus attacks for the squad, generally a good thing all round.

 

Reasons it is not so good:

 

1) GK are already pretty spendy, so going crazy on upgrades (good or not), can start turning into a liability quite quickly.

 

2) The bearer loses their NFW weapon, which makes them quite subpar in a unit which you're probably intending to get into CC a lot. This is the big stickler.

 

3) Loss of NFW on the bearer, on top of the cost, means it really only starts making sense on big termie/paladin squads, which people haven't generally been taking.

[Godhead]

It isnt super great on small squads. If you run big blobs of termies I think it's the bomb as the cost of the banner is spread out among more models. 5 man squads just means that you can potentially lose it to bad dice from a barrage of small arms fire.

[lordsloth]

On a 5 man squad, you're gaining two force weaopn attacks (only one on the charge).

Yes the banner model can also still attack, which is nice against t-shirt saves, but thats about it.

When people in the squad start dying, the banner gets worse and worse.

 

The only reason to take it is in large squads or if you really really want that autosuccess on force weapons. Personally I concider the force weapon test to be the least important psychic test in the grey knight arsenal. In it's current state, it is fairly lackluster. If it was backpack mounted (or alternatively replaced the stormbolter) you would see it in more lists.

[DV8]

Reasons it is good:

 

1) Auto success to activate NFW, which means you have at least one psychic power you can count on if someone is stifling your creativity with a Psychic Hood or similar.

 

Actually, the Banner only treats the unit as having automatically passed the Psychic test to activate their Nemesis Force Weapons, so Psychic Hoods, Null Rods, et. al. still get a chance to try and stop them. About the only benefit it gives is that it removes the chances of Perils of the Warp when attempting to activate.

 

 

DV8

[DeathKorpsman]

Reasons it is good:

 

1) Auto success to activate NFW, which means you have at least one psychic power you can count on if someone is stifling your creativity with a Psychic Hood or similar.

 

Actually, the Banner only treats the unit as having automatically passed the Psychic test to activate their Nemesis Force Weapons, so Psychic Hoods, Null Rods, et. al. still get a chance to try and stop them. About the only benefit it gives is that it removes the chances of Perils of the Warp when attempting to activate.

 

 

DV8

 

You're right of course, Psychic Hood was a bad example. Should have used something like Runes of Annoyance or Shadow in the Warp as an example. Anything that would normally make your roll harder would be affected, so it is still quite nice for an army that potentially has so many psychic powers to use. Don't hate me for the Psychic Hood thing, its late and my brain is telling me I should be sleeping.

[Techmarine Harkus]

Although not stopping Psychic Hoods, it does work well against the Tyranids Shadow in the Warp. Got to roll on 3 dice have I? Well I pass, so thats fine. Even with no funky stuff going on, 100% chance is better than the ~90% chance that Ld10 gives you. As far as Perils of the Warp go, the less rolls you have to make the better for avoiding those extra wounds.

 

In 10 man terminator squads (which are a definitely a personal preferance thing rather than a given) I would say the Banner is well worth the points and the 2-3 force weapon attacks you lose for the unit. It can turn a powerful charge into a devastating one.

[Lord Cuthbert]

From my play testing the BHB comes into its own not because of the size of the squad but by the support it receives. The problem is that in terms of usefulness Hammerhand is much better than one instant death. The squad only gets to use one or the other so most people side on being utilitarian and take Hammerhand. You add an IC and now things get interesting, I can take both Hammerhand and inflict instant death on a model. Going a step further, if your IC has PsiML 2 you get Hamerhand and two instant deaths as options. Now the BHB gives you the auto activation on two instant deaths and you roll for Hammerhand with your IC. If that IC happens to be a Libby, then have fun with Might of Titan and Hammerhand since they stack. A Libby with PsiML 3 brings the instant death total back to two or he can throw out QS.

 

So my thoughts are the BHB is good when your squad is supported by an IC with at least Hammerhand.

[Zagman]

The brotherhood banner is an expensive upgrade and should never be fielded on anything but a large squad. For example, paladins.

 

5 man squad with banner on the charge is 16FW attacks and 4 non FW attacks.

 

5 man sqaud without banner with psycannon and one set of falshions 16FW attacks on the charge. The squad set up has more attacks and is a ranged threat.

 

5 man squad with falshions, same costs, 20FW attacks.

 

After 2 casualties.

Banner squad has 8FW attacks on the charge and 4 nonFW attacks.

Without Banner squad has 9FW attacks on the charge

Falshion squads has 12 FW attacks on the charge.

 

The banner is better when charged, but I cannot justify its points cost in my armies. It is expensive and of limited use. I'll pass on this upgrade, my units are expensive already.

 

Each casualty suffered by a Banner unit greatly reduces its number of attacks and effectiveness. Also, wound allocation can make it possible for your enemy to protect certain models from PW/FW attacks increasing their survivability and granting them a save.

[Brom MKIV]

I use the banner and it is excellent. At first I was like most on this thread advocating it only for larger squads but now I take it even on my 5 man squad. Heres a decent 5 man build:

mcpc/halberd, pc/halberd, sb/mc halberd, sb/halberd, sb/banner (I swap the mc halberd out for a ndh)

 

Reasons I take the banner:

-Wound allocation is top priority when designing paladin units (while maintaining efficiency) and the banner gives me another set when I would otherwise be spending 5 pts on master crafted anyway.

 

-It increases a units attacks by 150%. Period. You do not lose attacks at all. You only gain attacks.

The number of attacks gained is more than an additional paladin would add at less than half the cost, albeit without the added wounds. However the unit still gains survivability through additional wound sets.

(If you look at the above unit you will see that it puts out 12 halberd attacks at i6, or as much as 6 paladins without the banner. In addition the banner bearer also strikes with 3 i4 attacks, meaning no stacking away fw attacks with this unit. Basically as long as the banner is the only i4 guy in the unit your opponent cant take advantage of the banner bearers attacks.)

 

-The banner makes halberds into initiative 6 falchions. Seriously why take anything except halberds on your paladins? Oh ya, wound shenanigans or more attacks, both of which the banner provides. 3 attack i6 halberds trump every other option.

 

-Lastly and to me the least of the reasons, it allows the unit to auto pass fw psych tests.

[StormTAG]

On a five man squad, without the charge you go from 10 FW attacks to 12 FW attacks and 3 banner slaps. For 25 points, that's not really very efficient usage of points. (Approximately 12 points per FW attack)

 

On a ten man squad with an IC, without the charge you go from 23 FW to 34 FW attacks and 3 banner slaps. For 25 points, that's an extremely efficent usage of points. (Approximately 2 points per FW attack)

 

 

Same basic concept for Psibolt or any other static cost upgrade for a dynamic squad size.

[Gentlemanloser]

Unless you have a Palaidn unit of size 1. ;)

 

Or you rule that Falchions give you 2 attacks in total! :D

 

(In which case Falchions and a Libby for Quickening!)

[Brom MKIV]

On a five man squad, without the charge you go from 10 FW attacks to 12 FW attacks and 3 banner slaps. For 25 points, that's not really very efficient usage of points. (Approximately 12 points per FW attack)

 

Actually yes it is, considering the cost of a single attack in that unit is 27.5 pts each :lol: Hell the cheapest GK FW attack in the entire codex is 13 pts man (purifiers). So yes you pay 25 pts to increase your attacks and increase your wound sets and be able to FW armies like eldar, nids etc. Its worth it, IMO.

[thor1234]

im liking the banner on bigger termie units 7+ but any less and find i miss the power weapon on the bearer, i don face a lot of nids or nobz so most of the time i hammer hand it, if the banner let the unit pass its overal psychic tests id take it for the instant hammerhand so i dont blow my head up cos im testing on 3 dice! though id be curious to know if the +1 attack is granted to IC that join the unit, if so this would be a bit on an incentive to take it......

[Inquisitor Fox]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned a Brotherhood Banner on a Terminator unit containing Justicar Thawn, who is psychic mastery level 2...

 

Auto force weapons PLUS hammerhand AND additional attacks? Yes please :)

[Abaddonshand]

From my play testing the BHB comes into its own not because of the size of the squad but by the support it receives. The problem is that in terms of usefulness Hammerhand is much better than one instant death. The squad only gets to use one or the other so most people side on being utilitarian and take Hammerhand. You add an IC and now things get interesting, I can take both Hammerhand and inflict instant death on a model. Going a step further, if your IC has PsiML 2 you get Hamerhand and two instant deaths as options. Now the BHB gives you the auto activation on two instant deaths and you roll for Hammerhand with your IC. If that IC happens to be a Libby, then have fun with Might of Titan and Hammerhand since they stack. A Libby with PsiML 3 brings the instant death total back to two or he can throw out QS.

 

So my thoughts are the BHB is good when your squad is supported by an IC with at least Hammerhand.

 

Remember, Nemesis force weapons all activate on a successful test (or banner use), meaning every attack (excluding ICs) causes instant death.

[Galadren]

From my play testing the BHB comes into its own not because of the size of the squad but by the support it receives. The problem is that in terms of usefulness Hammerhand is much better than one instant death. The squad only gets to use one or the other so most people side on being utilitarian and take Hammerhand. You add an IC and now things get interesting, I can take both Hammerhand and inflict instant death on a model. Going a step further, if your IC has PsiML 2 you get Hamerhand and two instant deaths as options. Now the BHB gives you the auto activation on two instant deaths and you roll for Hammerhand with your IC. If that IC happens to be a Libby, then have fun with Might of Titan and Hammerhand since they stack. A Libby with PsiML 3 brings the instant death total back to two or he can throw out QS.

 

So my thoughts are the BHB is good when your squad is supported by an IC with at least Hammerhand.

 

Remember, Nemesis force weapons all activate on a successful test (or banner use), meaning every attack (excluding ICs) causes instant death.

 

And Remember, the IC's get the +1 attack as well.

[Abaddonshand]

Absolutely, that's how I'm playing it, with the deathwing banner as precedent.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'm also surprised that nobody has mentioned using the banner in a squad with attached ICs. They benefit from it too. When you're using it to get an extra attack with Draigo's Titansword, or an Inquisitor's pimp daemonblade, it's very different. And if you have more than 1 IC attached, double the fun...

[HERO]

What? What do you mean it's not being used? I always advocate these...

 

+1 Attack and auto-activate Force Weapons? Are you kidding me? This means you can get up to S6 with the Librarian giving Hammerhand and Might of Titan while you pop Force Weapons (which auto-passes) with your Paladins/Termies.

 

+1 attack with Halberds is divine.. and I would definitely include these on Terminators of 6-7 or 6 w/ a IC. You definitely want to activate FW under the pressure of Shadow of the Warp and Runes of Warding. That in itself pays for itself.

 

A guide to unit upgrades.

[Defiance]

Yeah, been using these on my 5man termie squad attached to my librarian and they are golden. not only do they activate FW automatically they also allow my libby to do his hammerhand and might of titan and get an extra attack out of it as well. He goes from being piddly to pretty good with four strength six attacks on the charge with DIGI weps and MC. well well worth it.

[Chengar Qordath]

I've been using them in my Crusader-mounted squads, where having 8 Terminators total makes it more economical.

[StormTAG]

Actually yes it is, considering the cost of a single attack in that unit is 27.5 pts each :tu: Hell the cheapest GK FW attack in the entire codex is 13 pts man (purifiers). So yes you pay 25 pts to increase your attacks and increase your wound sets and be able to FW armies like eldar, nids etc. Its worth it, IMO.

 

Matter of opinion. I wouldn't give up more units, special weapons or HQs for a banner and often my lists run that tight.

 

However, you'll agree it's far more efficient on a larger squad, yes?

 

I'll also admit I feel it's hokey if every unit on the battlefield has a banner. ;P

[Brother-captain Samuel]

Reasons it is good:

 

1) Auto success to activate NFW, which means you have at least one psychic power you can count on if someone is stifling your creativity with a Psychic Hood Shadow in the Warp or similar.

 

2) Bonus attacks for the squad, generally a good thing all round.

 

Reasons it is not so good:

 

1) GK are already pretty spendy, so going crazy on upgrades (good or not), can start turning into a liability quite quickly.

 

2) The bearer loses their NFW weapon, which makes them quite subpar in a unit which you're probably intending to get into CC a lot. This is the big stickler.

 

3) Loss of NFW on the bearer, on top of the cost, means it really only starts making sense on big termie/paladin squads, which people haven't generally been taking.

 

Mathematically, on a 5 man squad, you double one grey knigts base attacks. the banner gives +1 attacks. 5 people in the squad is an additional 4 NFW attacks and an extra normal attack, as opposed to the 2 NFW attacks that the flag bearer loses. Also, this prevents shadow in the warp and runes of warding @$$ hatery

[Brom MKIV]

However, you'll agree it's far more efficient on a larger squad, yes?

 

I'll also admit I feel it's hokey if every unit on the battlefield has a banner. ;P

 

Yes to both and that second one made me Lol!