Drudge Dreadnought Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 One of the defining points of the 5th ed codices are the squad upgrade characters (Sgt Telion, Justicar Thawne, etc.) I was thinking that if they are still doing them by the time the next Chaos codex comes around, what sort of things should they be, and more importantly, where should they be? I am hoping that the next chaos codex will be similar to the 3.5 one—generic units that are they modified by marks and/or legion rules, as opposed to the separate cult unit entries in the current codex. If the next codex will be used to represent a large amount of warbands/legions, then if the upgrade characters are handled as they are now, we'll be seeing a lot of strange situations. For example, if there is a terminator upgrade character who is specifically a World Eater, then what about if you aren't playing World Eaters? I think the better way to handle the upgrade characters would be to make it so they aren't restricted by unit, but by mark/army. So instead of Character X being a Chaos Marine Squad upgrade character, let him be an upgrade character for any squad in power armor with the same mark as him. Another option would be to do it by Champions: Have each God (or each legion even) have an upgrade character who can replace any champion in any appropriately marked unit in the army for X points. Currently, all the mono-god legions have a special character. After considering these upgrade units, it struck me that several of the current Chaos SCs made more sense as upgrade characters (or upgrade Champions.) Abbadon, Typhus, and Ahriman are certainly army leaders in the fluff, and so should remain as HQs. But Kharne and Lucius are more like powerful Champions. Kharne isn't commanding a warbond. He's too busy killing everything that moves. Similarly, I see Lucius as belonging more in command of a Chosen squad doing his own thing on the battlefield rather than commanding the whole force. Thoughts, anyone? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227353-should-the-chaos-scs-be-upgrade-characters/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baragash Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 I don't really think it's right for either Khârn or Lucius. Khârn just wants to kill stuff, whether or not there's anyone with him is irrelevant to him. Lucius just wants to take on the best he can find to prove his skills, which is also a personal goal (and possibly opens him up to being a non-IC character with super stats unfortunately). A good example would be if someone like Talos of the Night Lords were to be included, as he is part of a squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227353-should-the-chaos-scs-be-upgrade-characters/#findComment-2723846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Cypher as a squad upgrade for chosen would be cool :D I have considered Khârn as an upgrade but I think he is too powerful/expensive for that and making him weaker would not do him justice :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227353-should-the-chaos-scs-be-upgrade-characters/#findComment-2723867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 I don't really think it's right for either Khârn or Lucius. Khârn just wants to kill stuff, whether or not there's anyone with him is irrelevant to him. Lucius just wants to take on the best he can find to prove his skills, which is also a personal goal (and possibly opens him up to being a non-IC character with super stats unfortunately). A good example would be if someone like Talos of the Night Lords were to be included, as he is part of a squad. Technically so is Khârn and Lucius, as they never really 'lead' anyone. I quite like the idea for 'lesser SCs' like Khârn, Cypher and Lucius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227353-should-the-chaos-scs-be-upgrade-characters/#findComment-2723886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 I mentioned the idea yesterday: I wonder- if some of the special characters became "squad upgrades"- would it clear space away for new HQs? It's a common trait in some of the newer codicies- Orks, Chaos Daemons, Space Marines, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, Grey Knights. Maybe bring back Cypher as a squad upgrade for Chaos Chosen. Khârn and Lucius never really "felt like" leaders of big armies to me anyway. So if berzerkers and Noise Marines respectively could replace their champions with these guys- would it be a good idea? A new 3 independant Chaos Apothecaries unit- a bit like Sanguinary Priests- which can replace one with Fabius Bile. but I suspect a lot of people have come up with it before. Just how powerful are the most powerful "squad upgrade characters" and how big a gap is there between them and guys like Khârn and Lucius? Ahriman is a bit on the high-powered side to be an upgrade to a Thousand sons squad- but a case could be made that he might not lead large armies of Thousand Sons, but instead "hire out" to more powerful warlords, to further his own goal of finding sorcerous info. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227353-should-the-chaos-scs-be-upgrade-characters/#findComment-2723887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Comparing Khârn to something similar, say a Broodlord, I'd say he is slightly stronger, but not as stable in terms of strategy (e.g. killing his own men). Performance wise they feel about even, but I dont have the time to run the math here at work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227353-should-the-chaos-scs-be-upgrade-characters/#findComment-2723892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AoC Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 I would rather see no special characters. In proper codex, no one would need them anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227353-should-the-chaos-scs-be-upgrade-characters/#findComment-2723894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted April 14, 2011 Author Share Posted April 14, 2011 Comparing Khârn to something similar, say a Broodlord, I'd say he is slightly stronger, but not as stable in terms of strategy (e.g. killing his own men).Performance wise they feel about even, but I dont have the time to run the math here at work. I think it's more a matter of unit role than power level. For example, compare Kharne and Ahriman. What do you do with Kharne? You put him in a squad and charge him at something. Exactly the same as a squad leader. What do you do with Ahriman? Well, all sorts of stuff that goes far beyond what you'd do with a thousand sons squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227353-should-the-chaos-scs-be-upgrade-characters/#findComment-2723915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 True, but by only adhering to that principle Abaddon wouldn't be an SC, but an upgradeable character. Now it might just be me, but that just feels wrong. :tu: Some form of distinction would have to be made. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227353-should-the-chaos-scs-be-upgrade-characters/#findComment-2723930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 meh . Khârn is only viable because he is cheap and gives an extra power weapon to the squad. If the squad lost a champ and just hard Khârn even for the same points it would suck . unless you want to make them true squad upgrades like the anvil fromSW dex. then yeah . str higher str with 5+A from a special would make it ok . still giving one target instead of two like a DP and squad [for the same points] is a bit meh . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227353-should-the-chaos-scs-be-upgrade-characters/#findComment-2723967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 But isn't an upgrade character not an IC for the purposes of targeting in assault? Having a hidden Khârn or Lucius has some potential (with some rule adjustments of course). I like it, even if they have to create some new SCs. What I REALLY miss is the Chaos Lieutenant, as I think we're really missing out on the chance to field an effectice but HQ choice for around 100 points, something like the Loyalist Chaplain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227353-should-the-chaos-scs-be-upgrade-characters/#findComment-2724142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 What I REALLY miss is the Chaos Lieutenant, as I think we're really missing out on the chance to field an effectice but HQ choice for around 100 points, something like the Loyalist Chaplain. This Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227353-should-the-chaos-scs-be-upgrade-characters/#findComment-2724187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AoC Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Meh, Lieutenant ? Seriously ? I would rather have 'Champion' HQ entry with statline akin: 5or6 4 4 4 2 5 2 10 3+/5+ With option to take customized wargear including mounts, jump pack and terminator armor (any other casual stuff like power weapons, plasma pistols, maybe even some sort of chaos/daemon weapons). Said character would have access to marks and gifts and wargear, and there would be 1-3 option (unless 6th is percentage based, so slots are moot points). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227353-should-the-chaos-scs-be-upgrade-characters/#findComment-2724301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Thats exactly what I was talking about AoC. Lieutenant was the previous name for such a unit, basically a weaker Chaos Lord. Champion would be a great term since it would be higher then the Aspiring Champions in the squads but below the Chaos Lord leading the whole army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227353-should-the-chaos-scs-be-upgrade-characters/#findComment-2724318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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