Swords or Halbreds?

[tksolway]

What do you use in your list? I'm torn between the Halbreds and the Swords for Termies, increasing the inv save in CC is cool, but for Strike Quads and Interceptors they get very pricey very quickly. What do you think of the Falcloins? I still am not sure if I get +2 attacks overall for the Falcloins (+1 from the wargear entry and +1 for having two matched weapons), or just +1 from the wargear entry. If its +2 they could be worth a couple models per squad. What do you guys think?

[HERO]

A guide to GK unit upgrades.

 

What NFW should I use?

 

This depends entirely on playstyle and personal preference but I'll tell you what I prefer: Halberds on everything with 2 attacks, Swords on your vital HQs and Hammers on anything that's non-IC, can't be picked out and in a 5:1 ratio to any infantry squad. This means no IC in your army should ever carry a Hammer. Grand Masters are I5 so you want to take advantage of that and Librarians have the exact stats as a Paladin. For Librarians, if you favor protection, go with a NFS to make him 4++ in CC. Sometimes I prefer the extra early hitting power so I give the Librarian a MC Halberd. For Grand Masters, I almost always take the NFS because it gives him a 3++ in close combat. Nothing else in the army is capable of giving you 3++ in CC for the price and his I5 is easily capable to matching most troops and HQs in combat. A I7 Halberd should only be considered if you want to outpace really speedy HQs.

 

Remember what I said about the ratio between Hammers and infantry. It doesn't matter if you're using Terminators, Paladins or GKSS, you always want to maintain a 5:1 ratio unless you have a specific purpose. This means if you want a close-range tank-busting team of S10 Hammers, I might take a 5:2 ratio of Hammers. This is viable, but ONLY do this if the Hammers are free or very cheap. You don't have Storm Shields so don't think you can weather the same kind of damage to swing less. Grey Knight Terminators rely on killing things in combat first to minimize the number of attacks back.

 

So when do you use swords? You only use swords if you want to play defensive in nature on units utilizing invulnerable saves. This should mean all PAGK (Power-armored Grey Knights) should not use swords right? No. On everything but Purifiers, you keep the swords for 2 key reasons: The Halberds are expensive and with one measly attack, you're not taking full advantage of your speedy potential. That means swords stay on GKSS and Interceptor squads because it's cost effective.

 

But what about Falchions? Speed is more important than the +1 attack. Offense, in my opinion, is more important than taking armor saves as defense. Killing the enemy before they have the chance to strike eliminates the possibility to rolling poorly on armor saves. This not only eliminates the use of defensive measures entirely but it also kills the enemy. There's nothing better than that, especially when you consider that falchions costs points to upgrade.

 

Lastly, we have Warding Staves. These things should be the last thing you look at because they're very limited in use. They're expensive, takes away a model's killing power, only works in CC and did I mention it's too expensive? I don't know about you folks, but I'd rather kill whatever I touch rather than relying on a expensive, purely defensive option. The only time these should be looked at is on Paladins, and I honestly wouldn't take 1 unless I have excessive points (and this is never).

[Brother Dylan]

How I've been running my infantry so far:

 

Strike Squads-Swords with a hammer

Terminators-Halbards

Paladins-3 falchions, halbards on the rest, banner

Purifiers-Halbards

 

Basically what hero says is spot on.

[ChaosPhoenix]

I would take swords on squads which have a Librarian with quickening nearby. But keep in mind, quickening works only in your assault phase. I still like to have 1-2 swords around even without a defensive playstyle. If you're playing against a good opponent, you can't always get what you want. Which means, your Terminator Squad might get assault by Power Weapons. Even in a Marine Squad there is a Power Weapon most of the time. I like to have a save against it. The important thing is, don't take a sword on anything with special equipment. The sword is there to use a 4++ which is a lot worse than the normal 2+. Which means, the model is more likely to die. So you don't want to take that test on the guy with the Psycannon or the Apothecary.

[Gentlemanloser]

But what about Falchions? Speed is more important than the +1 attack. Offense, in my opinion, is more important than taking armor saves as defense. Killing the enemy before they have the chance to strike eliminates the possibility to rolling poorly on armor saves. This not only eliminates the use of defensive measures entirely but it also kills the enemy. There's nothing better than that, especially when you consider that falchions costs points to upgrade.

 

I would suggest to take Falchions on any 2A (base) unit that you have attached to a Libby with Quickening.

 

Best of both worlds.

 

With I10, you hit first, and with many more attacks.

[jimbo1701]

I wrote a similar guide on my blog here if it's helpful:

 

http://indexastartes.blogspot.com/2011/03/...-to-choose.html

[Brovius]

Lastly, we have Warding Staves. These things should be the last thing you look at because they're very limited in use. They're expensive, takes away a model's killing power, only works in CC and did I mention it's too expensive? I don't know about you folks, but I'd rather kill whatever I touch rather than relying on a expensive, purely defensive option. The only time these should be looked at is on Paladins, and I honestly wouldn't take 1 unless I have excessive points (and this is never).[/i]

 

It doesn't reduce their killing power at all. You may be forgetting that it is a Nemesis weapon, and hence is a Force Weapon?

It's a sword that gives a 2++ to anyone.

It isn't completely useless, escpecially if the FAQ rules that we can use them for Perils. Until then though, there will be people forever arguing for/against.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

I am quite certain the falchions won't give +2 attacks when they are faqéd, as that seems to be a little bit too good for a 5 point upgrade. But we shall see.

[BrotherWasted]

Lastly, we have Warding Staves. These things should be the last thing you look at because they're very limited in use. They're expensive, takes away a model's killing power, only works in CC and did I mention it's too expensive? I don't know about you folks, but I'd rather kill whatever I touch rather than relying on a expensive, purely defensive option. The only time these should be looked at is on Paladins, and I honestly wouldn't take 1 unless I have excessive points (and this is never).[/i]

 

It doesn't reduce their killing power at all. You may be forgetting that it is a Nemesis weapon, and hence is a Force Weapon?

It's a sword that gives a 2++ to anyone.

It isn't completely useless, escpecially if the FAQ rules that we can use them for Perils. Until then though, there will be people forever arguing for/against.

 

 

HERO has been watching Beasts of War again.

 

But, I still have to side with HERO on the matter. 25 points for an invulnerable save you'll never get to use if you play properly is a completely worthless upgrade.

 

I am quite certain the falchions won't give +2 attacks when they are faqéd, as that seems to be a little bit too good for a 5 point upgrade. But we shall see.

 

5 points for an additional weapon? Hardly too good. Even so, since you're striking at initiative 4 anyway, it doesn't make Falchions worth it in any scenario.

 

Honestly, people, if you want a model with 4 attacks on the charge, take some Death Cult Assassins. They hit more often, just as hard, and basically have a free halberd. They are superior close combat models than any Terminator Squad can hope to be.

[ChaosPhoenix]

This is not meant to be offensive or anything. After reading heros blog and comments, I think his a very aggressive thinking player. I still think grey knights are a flexible midfield fighting force. I think a "if it kills you, kill it even more" philosophy isn't the main strength of a grey knight army. It reminds me of the blantly singleminded approach of BoW. But to be fair Heros tactica where up before BoW.

[BrotherWasted]

It's not about "if it kills, kill it more", it's about "if it kills, kill it as fast as possible then find your next target". The extra attack(s) from a pair of Falchions don't matter when you're striking the same time as MEQ. You run the risk of losing more models with Falchions, and against MEQ, that risk is unacceptable. You simply cannot afford to lose models than necessary in GK list. The best way to counter that problem is to take out the opponent first. You kill 3-4 MEQ with your gunfire, then mop up the rest before they can strike. Then you look for the next thing to hurt. Halberds let you mop up the leftovers without taking casualties. Falchions risk losing attacks from your squad.

 

Before someone mentions hordes, you just move and shoot them, then soak up the rest with assault once you've thinned the numbers. They fall to your ability to always move and shoot at full capacity. Initiative 6 reduces the effectiveness of their assault, whereas Falchions result in both people swinging and watching the aftermath.

 

If you don't face a lot of MEQ, then perhaps Falchions are a consideration. But when you look at the majority of codex content nowadays, the majority of units are striking at initiative 4.

[Gentlemanloser]

The extra attack(s) from a pair of Falchions don't matter when you're striking the same time as MEQ.

 

Libby with Quicksilver. :huh:

[Reclusiarch Darius]

'Quicksilver' is blockable, you can fail it anyway, and you may wanna cast 'Might' instead (if you're fighting a tough monster or a walker, for example). Plus it can cause Perils, which is an issue (as unless they FAQ the warding stave to work against it, we're in trouble).

 

Halberds always work, they're free/cheap on the units that best use them (Terminators/Paladins/Purifiers), and they make assault units cry into their beer. I6 is insane, I would've been happy with I5 but as it is, we can take Furious Charges from other Marines comfortably. Enemy heroes/monsters also don't like the prospect of fighting I6 force weapons (handy thing to remember with Tyranids, lash whips only reduce Initiative on models in base to base, so just move Purifier psycannons into charge, then attack from behind with halberds at unaffected I6).

[Brom MKIV]

Another vote for 'halbreds' because when combined with purifiers you get 'purebreds' :D

[HERO]

Lastly, we have Warding Staves. These things should be the last thing you look at because they're very limited in use. They're expensive, takes away a model's killing power, only works in CC and did I mention it's too expensive? I don't know about you folks, but I'd rather kill whatever I touch rather than relying on a expensive, purely defensive option. The only time these should be looked at is on Paladins, and I honestly wouldn't take 1 unless I have excessive points (and this is never).[/i]

 

It doesn't reduce their killing power at all. You may be forgetting that it is a Nemesis weapon, and hence is a Force Weapon?

It's a sword that gives a 2++ to anyone.

It isn't completely useless, escpecially if the FAQ rules that we can use them for Perils. Until then though, there will be people forever arguing for/against.

 

I was referring to the speed aspect of killing power, but you're right, that's not technically killing "power".

[ChaosPhoenix]

*deleted because I'm stupid*