Questions about Grey Knights

[platypuscorps]

Meow.

I was thinking about playing Grey Knights, a thought spurred on by the awesomeness that is Major Tom's Awesome Zenithal Airbrushing Tutorial, using a GK termie as a template, scheme and all!

I'm thinking about picking up a squad of Termies or 2, and was wondering what would be a good, rounded off loadout. Something balanced is Important, as my other two armies, Space Wolves and Grey Knights, are wildely different in every regard.

Help.

[number6]

Much will depend on your army list as a whole. GK terminators have several obvious strengths and a few key weaknesses. Will you be footslogging them? Do you intend to reserve them and deep strike them as a support unit? Is it an assault unit coming out of a stormraven or land raider?

 

There is no One Best Loadout for any unit in the GK codex, Terminators included.

[Irbis]

Meow.

I was thinking about playing Grey Knights, a thought spurred on by the awesomeness that is Major Tom's Awesome Zenithal Airbrushing Tutorial, using a GK termie as a template, scheme and all!

I'm thinking about picking up a squad of Termies or 2, and was wondering what would be a good, rounded off loadout. Something balanced is Important, as my other two armies, Space Wolves and Grey Knights, are wildely different in every regard.

 

Terminator army, eh? See one attempt on such.

[Brother Valerius]

Much will depend on your army list as a whole. GK terminators have several obvious strengths and a few key weaknesses. Will you be footslogging them? Do you intend to reserve them and deep strike them as a support unit? Is it an assault unit coming out of a stormraven or land raider?

 

There is no One Best Loadout for any unit in the GK codex, Terminators included.

 

The impression I got is that it's an extremely bad idea to try to footslog your GKs, as you will get chewed up by long-range firepower and can ill afford to take such losses in a pricey army. Do you feel there are good ways to accomplish that goal? I hate feeling constrained by a need for transports, so that would be interesting to try.

[platypuscorps]

Actually, as my armies are all in the formative stage, for now, they would be footsloggers, although they would inevitably get blinged out with LRs. Actually, one of my "to dos" is to build up some Paladins, and have them shepard Draigo into battle via a stormraven.

Thanks for the comments so far guys, and actually, no, they won't all be termies, most of my other squads will be strikes, intercepts, Purifiyers, etc.

By the way, is Crowe really worth it?

Platy

[number6]

The issue with footslogging a GK army is that you have to present targets that overwhelm your opponent's ability to deal with them effectively. Ironically, this means overwhelming their ability to pour out anti-armour firepower. The reason is because GKTs (and/or Paladins) will inevitably be a part of what you're walking across the table.

 

Both GKTs and Paladins are susceptible to anti-armour firepower. Such firepower will usually bypass the 2+ save and go straight for the 5+ invul. And in the case of Paladins, most anti-armour fire will also cause Instant Death. :( But you must also recognize that basic Terminators of all kind are susceptible to simple torrents of anti-infantry firepower. Put enough wounds into a unit, and you will fail enough 2+ saves to neuter or even eliminate your unit.

 

Here's the key thing: Paladins are all but immune to small arms fire. Failing those occasional 2+ saves to torrents doesn't do squat against them. They have more wounds where that came from, and you can tool the squad up to abuse wound allocations to really help keep previously wounded members alive longer. All of this is without using an Apothecary, too! If, somehow, you can manage to afford the Apothecary tax :wacko: -- well, then, you have a unit that simply cannot be taken down with anti-infantry firepower. Anti-armour firepower is all that will work. Or a dedicated assault (or two, or three).

 

As much as I hate on Paladins, an all-footslogging army is the only place I think they can work. Not that you'll get a strong army out of it! But you might at least get something playable against other hobby lists.

 

All of this adds up to the conclusion that you can't just put Terminators and any of the power-armoured GK units on the table unmounted. Anti-armour firepower will destroy the termies and anti-infantry will destroy the power-armoured units.

 

Nor can you put a mix of Troops Terminators and Paladins on the table (forgoing any power-armoured units). Because then anti-armour fire will destroy the Paladins and torrents of anti-infantry will destroy the Troops Terminators.

 

So, IMHO, such an army must be led by Draigo and the only infantry you put on the table are Paladins.

 

Of course, this is a damned expensive army, and it's still lacking any kind of mobility or serious shooting. I don't know how you could afford more than Draigo and 2 Paladin units in this army. Even at 2000 pts, all the rest of your points past the minimum force org would have to go into shooty dreadnoughts, it seems to me. Even at 2000 pts. :D

 

This strikes me as the only palatable way to use Draigo and Paladins. It completely pisses away all your opponent's anti-infantry firepower and presents a significant number of difficult to destroy targets that are susceptible only to anti-armour firepower. It's also one of the few ways you can do footslogging GKs at all.

 

The only other way I can conceive of playing footslogging GKs is to go pure MSU with them. Lots and lots of minimal units with minimal upgrades, repeated over and over. A minimal HQ of a cheap Inquisitor with servo skulls and a conversion beamer. 6 Troops Strike Squads with a psycannon. 3 Interceptor units with psycannons. (Points permitting, actually make these full 10-man units with double psycannons and combat squad them.) And then as many shooty dreads (venerable would be preferable) as you can afford to put on the table. Such an army spams the board with targets and scoring units, none of which are worth much but which all add up to a significant amount of firepower. Even assault power when you gang them up.

[platypuscorps]

Holy Hell, man, YOU ARE A GOLDMINE! Thank You for the info, and again, is the crowe tax worth it?

Although, on the subject of a full termie army, I could just drop everything onto any nasty little tanks, then romp through those wimpy little infantry.

My big reason for asking these questions is because I want my armies to be designed to rip each other to piecemeal. Adding more power armour to the mix really screws with my SW, as they are currently being geared for killing guard. obviously, that means flamers and meltas, and I really AM PISSED that the SW kit only comes with a plasma, so I sense guard mutilation in the future. ;) MWAHAHAHAAHAAHAAAA :devil: ! Or Bitzbox.com.

Thanks for all the great advice so far, keep em coming!

Cheers from the Youngblood,

Platy

[number6]

Holy Hell, man, YOU ARE A GOLDMINE! Thank You for the info, and again, is the crowe tax worth it?

As a general rule, no, I don't think taking Purifiers as Troops is actually worth it.

 

Note that this assessment has nothing at all to do with Crowe. Rather, it has everything to do with the value of Purifiers as Troops taken instead of Strike Squads.

 

The problem I have with Purifiers is they are right-costed for an Elites unit, but are overcosted for a core Troops unit. That is, they're perfect as something you only take 1 or 2 of. But when you want like 4 such units -- why else would you take Crowe if not to spam Purifier units, right? -- the points difference between Purifiers and Strike Squads really add up. I definitely see no point to paying the Crowe tax -- using up an HQ slot in the bargain -- just to take 1 or 2 purifier units as scoring units. Very wasteful.

 

Let's take basic shooty builds that you might like in a mech list. Say you're going MSU and want to maximize your output. For Strikers, this means something like this:

 

5 Strikers, psycannon; Razorback, psybolts: 160 pts

 

That unit is cheap, gives you excellent downrange firepower, and mobility and protection for the Troops if/when you need it. For Purifiers, there are many ways to skin this cat....

 

5 Purifiers, 2 psycannons; Razorback, psybolts: 190 pts

5 Purifiers, 1 psycannon; Razorback, psybolts: 180 pts

5 Purifiers, 2 psycannons; Rhino: 180 pts

 

In one sense, the 1st option is clearly better than the Strikers. An extra psycannon, fearless Troops, ... but it does cost you 30 pts more. Multiply that by 3 or 4 units and the difference becomes VERY noticeable (on the order of 90 pts to 120 pts ... or even more if you take more units or kit them out with wargear you wouldn't bother with on the Strikers). Are those extra psycannons and Purifier models actually worth that points premium? I don't think so. Still only 5 bodies that will be exposed on the table to enemy fire to make use of those guns. Those 90 pts (or more) can buy a lot of other utility in a GK list. You can get a 5th striker squad without a transport -- plus four that are mounted -- for 10 fewer points than four mounted Purifier units. That's nothing to sneeze at.

 

What about option 2, then? We don't take advantage of the Purifier heavy weapons bonuses, but that only saves us 10 pts. Again, not a real bargain considering the purpose of the unit.

 

Option 3? Instead of the Razorback we'll use the Rhino's top hatch and fire two psycannons out. Still 180 pts, though. Still only 5 bodies. And you're also not making best use of the Rhino, which should probably be carrying larger units as that's its purpose.

 

This is only a very limited analysis of a the units in comparison for a single, mono-tasked tactical purpose on the tabletop. But you can extend this argument almost as far as you like for nearly any tactical purpose.

 

I'm not saying that you can't make a good Crowe/Purifier list. But I know that I'm finding it quite difficult! ;) I actually think it's easier to make a quality GK army list using just limited numbers of Purifiers to help support a base made of Strike Squads.

[Joasht]

as my other two armies, Space Wolves and Grey Knights, are wildely different in every regard.

 

The obvious typo aside (I assume you meant something other than Grey Knights as your "other army"), to be honest most Marine armies are rather similar at the end of the day. I've played pretty much every chapter (although, I by far predominantly use the Blood Angels) but because of the stat similarities and the similarities of many of the options, the variables are far less than between a Space Marine army and most non-Marine armies.

 

That aside, I think there is no harm in buying two boxes of Terminators, possibly magnetizing them, then playtesting them. I can imagine a full squad of Paladins (with Apothecary/Standard) and Draigo to eat S8+ shots being rediculously difficult to move, but that is pretty much almost 1,000 points right there. Even though many would tell you that such squads will not work ever, I personally reckon it would work against less experienced players.

[Gentlemanloser]

Footlsogging Paladins work well with Rhino mounted Strike Squads, the obligatory Psybolt Rifleman Dread (or three) and even an NDK. Saturate your opponent with Armour he must shoot at, and preasure from multiple types.

 

Sure, the 'light' anti armour will prioritise your Rhino's, but until they are popped, as Number 6 has said, all your opponents anti infantry is useless. Then there's NDK, Dreads and Paladin that require the heavy hitting stuff.

 

It's just another reason I see no place for Terminators in a balanced GK army (unless attached to Mordrak). If you're footslogging them, Paladin do that infintely better. And if you want an expensive Transport for them, you're usually better off putting the cheaper Purifiers in them instead.

 

I also agree the Crowe Tax just isn't worth it.

 

I disagree about them cost wise as troops. If you're planning on a MSU style list, then you can't beat 5 Purifiers in a Rhino with two Psycannons for Cost. Seeing as you'd need 10 Strikes to get the same Shooting ability.

 

Sure, if you're going 5 in a Razorback, then you're 20 points better off with the Strikes. And 20 points for 5 more attacks in CC is usually a price worth paying. Plus you have the security of Cleansing Flame if you do get countercharged. small 5 man units can be easily overrun in CC, but CF helps even the odds there.

[platypuscorps]

Thanks for the info guys, you're great :) ! And I meant IG( :lol: ). And, on the subject of DreadKnights, what is everyones opinion on them, their effectiveness, and viable tactics.

More Cheers from the Youngblood,

Platy

[Gentlemanloser]

They can cause a rukus, but die easily if focused.

 

They eat Land Raiders for breakfast though. :lol:

 

Still, bare bones, you get a S6, T6 4W terminator, for 30 points less than 4 terminators! Add in the Gattling Psilencer (why, I'll never know!) and for just 5 points more you get more Storm Bolter shots than 4 Terminators as well.

[Inquisitor Fox]

One thing to consider as well, we have deep strike as a transport option for many of our units. While it does contain some risk (nothing is perfect), it minimizes the flaws of foot slogging by rapidly reducing range and time for the enemy to fire at your units. It maintains the element of surprise in that the enemy has no idea what you are doing, and with psychic communion we can help reduce the potential downside of units arriving too late to do anything.

 

Yes, I do not have as much experience behind the helm of Grey Knights as I do Inquisition and Sisters, but I still believe that (and am building my own list accordingly!) we can get a proper amount of firepower positioned via deep strike to blast away at portions of our opponents army without losing our own troops. I think a combination of mechanization and deep striking will give us quite a lot of flexibility in terms of battle plan and deployment options. Every table is different, and having lots of tricks in your bag gives you a lot of options with how to approach the battle.