Baal Predator vs Dakka Predator

[appiah4]

I'm really torn on what kit to buy to expand my BA army..

 

All things considered, including being in different FOC charts, if you were to take one or the other, which would you take and why? What say the mathhammer on this?

 

Feel free to answer the question in a vacuum or in the context of my army list choices below:

 

Currently my army list features no FA units. My 3 HS slots are taken by 2 Devastator units (4ML, 1 HB Razorback / 3 Plasma Cannons, 1 HB Razorback), 1 Dreadnought (Assault Cannon, CCW). Additionally My 2 tactical squads in Rhinos carry a Multi-Melta, Plasmagun, Combi-Melta and Power Fist each. Honor Guard carries 2 Meltaguns in a HB Razorback. That's the extent of my AT.

 

The HS Dreadnought is magnetized and can easily swap arms for a Bloor Fist or Blood Talon Furioso with a Heavy Flamer, so I have 1 HS and 3 FA slots to fill.

 

Give me your advice :D

[knife&fork]

You've pretty much answered the question yourself already. The Baal.

 

While they both do crowd control pretty well the dakka pred is in a crowded slot and the Baal kit is better suited for dealing with MEQ.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

I'm really torn on what kit to buy to expand my BA army..

 

All things considered, including being in different FOC charts, if you were to take one or the other, which would you take and why? What say the mathhammer on this?

 

Feel free to answer the question in a vacuum or in the context of my army list choices below:

 

Currently my army list features no FA units. My 3 HS slots are taken by 2 Devastator units (4ML, 1 HB Razorback / 3 Plasma Cannons, 1 HB Razorback), 1 Dreadnought (Assault Cannon, CCW). Additionally My 2 tactical squads in Rhinos carry a Multi-Melta, Plasmagun, Combi-Melta and Power Fist each. Honor Guard carries 2 Meltaguns in a HB Razorback. That's the extent of my AT.

 

The HS Dreadnought is magnetized and can easily swap arms for a Bloor Fist or Blood Talon Furioso with a Heavy Flamer, so I have 1 HS and 3 FA slots to fill.

 

Give me your advice :D

 

Mathhammer says Baal. Against everything. However, FoC charts and points value say dakka-pred. I'd buy either box, and the get the missing turret weapon from ebay, so you can have both.

[the jeske]

Baal can move . daka pred cant . If you want hvy support shoting take rifle man they are better . If you want to use preds use baals.

[appiah4]

Baal can move . daka pred cant . If you want hvy support shoting take rifle man they are better . If you want to use preds use baals.

 

Aren't they both Fast? Don't have the codex on hand..

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Baal can move . daka pred cant . If you want hvy support shoting take rifle man they are better . If you want to use preds use baals.

 

Lies, both are fast.

[Gv0zD]

Baals. They are more flexible in terms of target selection and more univesal (take out infantry, meqs, vehicles), and they have scout. So it's possible to put both (did I mention I always take two of them :tu: ) baals as close as possible to the enemy and start harassing his units ASAP. Dakka Pred is more defensive choice, if I were to take them I'd go for autocannon + lascan sponsons and would snipe heavy or medium armor. So, in general, Baal is more preferable choice.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Baals. They are more flexible in terms of target selection and more univesal (take out infantry, meqs, vehicles), and they have scout. So it's possible to put both (did I mention I always take two of them ;) ) baals as close as possible to the enemy and start harassing his units ASAP. Dakka Pred is more defensive choice, if I were to take them I'd go for autocannon + lascan sponsons and would snipe heavy or medium armor. So, in general, Baal is more preferable choice.

 

I've learned that the lascannon sponsons are the most overpriced thing in the book apart from servitors and d.c jump packs. Heck, even devastators with two lascannons might be better due to one of them getting BS5, being able to get cover and having spare bodies. Lascannons and autocannons have very different targeting priorities, and you don't want to pop rhinos with lascannons. And the autocannon will in turn do nothing useful against av 13 and 14.

[Gv0zD]

Autocannon and LC sponsons for some flexibility. LC can instakill meqs, while autocannon can thin infantry as well, not to mention they both can criplle transports. So it's flexibility reasons. But as I said, Baals are better anyway ;)

[knife&fork]

Baals. They are more flexible in terms of target selection and more univesal (take out infantry, meqs, vehicles), and they have scout. So it's possible to put both (did I mention I always take two of them -_- ) baals as close as possible to the enemy and start harassing his units ASAP. Dakka Pred is more defensive choice, if I were to take them I'd go for autocannon + lascan sponsons and would snipe heavy or medium armor. So, in general, Baal is more preferable choice.

 

I've learned that the lascannon sponsons are the most overpriced thing in the book apart from servitors and d.c jump packs. Heck, even devastators with two lascannons might be better due to one of them getting BS5, being able to get cover and having spare bodies. Lascannons and autocannons have very different targeting priorities, and you don't want to pop rhinos with lascannons. And the autocannon will in turn do nothing useful against av 13 and 14.

 

The sponsons might be a tad overpriced but on the other hand...

 

There's nothing wrong with shooting a trukk, chimera or rhino with a lascannon or multimelta. Most armies now rely on transports to be effective and getting the odds in your favor is good. Just because the rhino or trukk itself costs a fraction of a landraider doesn't mean it can't be high priority target.

 

The all LC pred is good at taking out armor but very expensive. Just the LC turret doesn't work well with HB sponsons and you lose all your AT from one weapon destroyed.

 

At BS4 two shots are better than twinlinked.

 

With all the melta in todays lists standing off at 48" and shooting from turn one is preferable to exposing your rear or side armor.

 

Tanks can get cover too! Park them in the appropriate terrain and they'll have a permanent cover save just like the devastators.

[appiah4]

Ok just a couple of reflections on the discussion so far:

 

Sponsons: For popping transports or crowd control HB sponsons are indeed dirt cheap (They can penetrate AV10 and glance AV11). I see no point in adding LC sponsons to a dakka pred, tbh. Different target priority as previously stated by another poster. So for both tanks I'd only consider HB sponsons..

 

So this is specifically a discussion between turret guns:

 

TL AC w/ Scout (24" S6 AP4 Heavy 4 Twin-Linked, Rending) vs Autocannon (48" S7 AP4 Heavy 2)

 

Ok, so basically at 24" and closer the Assault Cannon would work wonders vs most things. Its merits are obvious, so here's why I am leaning towards the Autocannon:

 

1. It sucks that the Autocannon does not deny MEQ armor saves, but neither does the Assault Cannon most of the time.

2. Since my list is mostly an Earth style list with lots of shooty Tacticals, Sternguard, Tactical Terminators etc., I have a solid 24" range threat line (Multi-Meltas, Plasma Cannons, Plasmaguns, Assault Cannons, (Storm)Bolters). What I lack is something to reliably pop transports with at range (36-48") in addition to my Missile Launcher Devastator Squad.

3. I don't have many assault units in my lists, I rely on shooting the enemy extensively while they charge, then counter-charge them, or to advance as a big unstoppable wall of red, guns blazing as I go..

 

Therefore, I have a feeling the Dakka Pred would be a better choice. I'm contemplating breaking up the Plasma Cannon Dev Squad and putting the Plasma Cannons in Tactical Squads. Please feel free to dissuade me -_-

[Gv0zD]

@ knife&fork: good post, bro! Respect! :)

[knife&fork]

Ok just a couple of reflections on the discussion so far:

 

Sponsons: For popping transports or crowd control HB sponsons are indeed dirt cheap (They can penetrate AV10 and glance AV11). I see no point in adding LC sponsons to a dakka pred, tbh. Different target priority as previously stated by another poster. So for both tanks I'd only consider HB sponsons..

 

I'll have disagree a bit with your reasoning here.

 

There's a good reason for melta being so commonplace, it's effective, not just beacuse of the S8 but the 2D6 pen and being AP1. A plain S8 shot is not "good" anti tank, S5 and S6 (allthough the TLAC is borderline) is not "good" anti transport. A lascannon might not be as good as a multimelta up close against most things, but it has twice the range, 4 times if you want the melta bonus.

Unless you really need something to pop light or medium (non MEQ) infantry the LC sponsons is the reason to take the predator, the turret autocannon is just icing on the cake vs transports or things like sentinel or speeder squadrons.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/09/...ht-support.html

 

Sums up what I have to say about autolas, but someone else does it for me.

[Tamwulf]

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/09/...ht-support.html

 

Sums up what I have to say about autolas, but someone else does it for me.

 

Interesting article! Some good advice, and rings true. The one exception he did make for the Autocannon/Lascannon Sponson Predators was the Blood Angels Predator due to the Fast rule. I thought that was a bit interesting.

 

It seems like an odd combination, but I use to enjoy great success with my Lascannon/HB Sponson Predator in my Dark Angels. Your mileage will vary.

 

Consider what else you have in your army, and what exactly you want your Predator(s) to do. If they are anti-tank, then equip them for that role and use appropriately. Anti-infantry? Again, equip and use them for the intended purpose. When people don't have a clear idea of what to do with their tanks, or use them inappropriately, it becomes frustrating and they consider them "useless or a waste of points".

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

That he did indeed, as it can remain sort of mobile. But I think focus is a better idea, and as Blood Angels have infinte ammounts of meltaguns, I'd roll with the old Destructor config, and possibly a storm bolter. If I have fast attack slots free, I'd consider a Baal, but I don't think that it is actually worth 45 points more.

[the jeske]

Baal can move . daka pred cant . If you want hvy support shoting take rifle man they are better . If you want to use preds use baals.

 

Lies, both are fast.

 

dont ment that. baals have scout they can pop smoke and have smokes up no matter if your opponent started or not . try to have unstuned preds against SW or IG when you didnt get first turn . Baals move and get in to better positions . preds only work in mixed armies and even there they are not auto includes.

[knife&fork]

That he did indeed, as it can remain sort of mobile. But I think focus is a better idea, and as Blood Angels have infinte ammounts of meltaguns, I'd roll with the old Destructor config, and possibly a storm bolter. If I have fast attack slots free, I'd consider a Baal, but I don't think that it is actually worth 45 points more.

 

Meltas are hard hitting but extremely short ranged. The sooner you can take care of armor and decrease your opponents mobility the better, a stunned Russ in turn 1 is usually better than a destroyed one in turn 3.

 

That ACLC predators should be useless because they can't move and fire is pretty strange argument. Just park them in a corner and let them cover a flank/critical lane of fire. In smaller point games they often hold up an entire flank by themselves.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

That he did indeed, as it can remain sort of mobile. But I think focus is a better idea, and as Blood Angels have infinte ammounts of meltaguns, I'd roll with the old Destructor config, and possibly a storm bolter. If I have fast attack slots free, I'd consider a Baal, but I don't think that it is actually worth 45 points more.

 

Meltas are hard hitting but extremely short ranged. The sooner you can take care of armor and decrease your opponents mobility the better, a stunned Russ in turn 1 is usually better than a destroyed one in turn 3.

 

That ACLC predators should be useless because they can't move and fire is pretty strange argument. Just park them in a corner and let them cover a flank/critical lane of fire. In smaller point games they often hold up an entire flank by themselves.

 

I'm starting to wonder how much luck you have with your preds. It takes like on average 5 missilies to off a pred in cover, or at least make it unable to shoot.

[Redo]

I play a pretty aggressive army with Assault Troops advacing behind tanks etc. I find that with the Baal I can move 12" focus fire on transports etc and the troops behind still have cover. I can also utilse that scout move up to 18". The next turn my Baal can move 6" unleash every thing and still provide cover for RAS, etc.

 

The Dakka pred is cheaper but cannot really do this and I think the TWAC are more relaible than the Autocannon anyway. Oh and the Baal is quintessentially BA. Go the Baal

[knife&fork]

I'm starting to wonder how much luck you have with your preds. It takes like on average 5 missilies to off a pred in cover, or at least make it unable to shoot.

 

With BS4 S8 vs AV13, no extra armour and a 4+ cover it's actually double that. If the opponent mainly has blast weapons or lower BS it gets even better. I usually make a big push along one flank and then the predator or other ranged support units stays far on the opposite side of the board. Most of the incoming fire will be directed at the scary madmen in red while the pred is left to nibble up the flank. Sometimes it gets targeted by a lot of AT or infiltrator/deep strikers but I don't mind since that means less for my main force to deal with.