What if Chaos wasn't a Codex?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Okay, I doubt this will actually happen, but here's an interesting idea. We're all familiar with the complaints of the current codex being more of a codex: Renegades than a Codex: Chaos Legions. Chaos Legions certainly need their own Chaos Codex again. Assuming the next Chaos Codex is mainly aimed at Legions (as so many of us want) then how should Renegades be handled?

 

What if Renegade lists were based off loyalist codices, instead of being half-assed in a new Chaos Codex?

 

The way it would work is fairly simple: Renegades still use their normal Codex, but with certain modifications. These modifications would represent the loss of faith in the emperor, the lack of logistical support to maintain fancier tech, and the beginning of chaos worship and mutation. It could look something like this:

 

- Pick a marine 5th ed codex

- All units lose ATSKNF. Those with Fearless keep it. Any unit may purchase Fearless for X points per model.

- Any unit may take a chaos icon (as current CSM codex)

- Any sergeant may buy upgrades from a daemonic gifts table (like in CSM Codex 3.5)

- No special characters may be used.

- All wargear from the Advanced Technology list costs an extra 5 points (List includes infantry plasma cannons, storm shields, etc.)

- Chapter/company banners can no longer be taken. A selection of more powerful Chaos Banners is instead available.

- HQs may take Chaos marks, daemonic gifts, various pieces of chaos wargear, and librarians have access to some new powers.

- Armies with a marked HQ may take that god's lesser daemons. Undivided armies can take any type of lesser daemon.

- Various mutant/traitor lost and the damned units could be selected.

 

Note that this is just an example, and would have to be appropriately balanced.

 

This would allow for an easy way to open up a huge variety of renegade themed lists based off each marine chapter. It would also leave the Chaos Codex to focus on Legions, and to allow it to be more than spikey marines. Renegades would already be covering the "spiky marines" role, leaving Chaos Marines to be really something different from loyalists.

 

From GWs perspective, this would get a lot of people buying new models. It would effectively give them 3-5 new armies (depending on if they only use 5th ed codices or not) without needing to make any new models, and with only needing to publish a couple pages of rules in a White Dwarf, online PDF, or back of a Chaos Legions Codex. It would also bring back The Lost and the Damned.

[Thradok]

Hm...intriguing. I like the concept. I'd say a special section in the codex, and flesh it out a bit more. Not sure how general you could make it if you want to be able to convert all the SM chapters...perhaps a couple pages for each? Vanilla goes vanilla, BA go khorne, etc. IDK.

[juiced]

thats how it was in second edition, you could purchase marine equipments out of the loyalist codex at i believe a 25% markup and use it in your army.

[Brother Nihm]

50% additional cost actually, I still remember the loyalist L.Claw loophole. :P

[the jeske]

yeah huron had the 50% rule in 2ed dex.

 

Still no dex would kill a faction faster then bolter shell flying through ones head.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

It works for me. I always thought that renegades should almost be a mix of chaos AND their origins, just as the Traitors are. There is so much more depth to CSMs and SMs than just "loyalist" or "Chaos". Wel, unless you're Ultramarine... at which point, personality is not included in the geneseed.

[Shea Mary]

Okay, I doubt this will actually happen, but here's an interesting idea. We're all familiar with the complaints of the current codex being more of a codex: Renegades than a Codex: Chaos Legions. Chaos Legions certainly need their own Chaos Codex again. Assuming the next Chaos Codex is mainly aimed at Legions (as so many of us want) then how should Renegades be handled?

 

What if Renegade lists were based off loyalist codices, instead of being half-assed in a new Chaos Codex?

 

The way it would work is fairly simple: Renegades still use their normal Codex, but with certain modifications. These modifications would represent the loss of faith in the emperor, the lack of logistical support to maintain fancier tech, and the beginning of chaos worship and mutation. It could look something like this:

 

- Pick a marine 5th ed codex

- All units lose ATSKNF. Those with Fearless keep it. Any unit may purchase Fearless for X points per model.

- Any unit may take a chaos icon (as current CSM codex)

- Any sergeant may buy upgrades from a daemonic gifts table (like in CSM Codex 3.5)

- No special characters may be used.

- All wargear from the Advanced Technology list costs an extra 5 points (List includes infantry plasma cannons, storm shields, etc.)

- Chapter/company banners can no longer be taken. A selection of more powerful Chaos Banners is instead available.

- HQs may take Chaos marks, daemonic gifts, various pieces of chaos wargear, and librarians have access to some new powers.

- Armies with a marked HQ may take that god's lesser daemons. Undivided armies can take any type of lesser daemon.

- Various mutant/traitor lost and the damned units could be selected.

 

Note that this is just an example, and would have to be appropriately balanced.

 

This would allow for an easy way to open up a huge variety of renegade themed lists based off each marine chapter. It would also leave the Chaos Codex to focus on Legions, and to allow it to be more than spikey marines. Renegades would already be covering the "spiky marines" role, leaving Chaos Marines to be really something different from loyalists.

 

From GWs perspective, this would get a lot of people buying new models. It would effectively give them 3-5 new armies (depending on if they only use 5th ed codices or not) without needing to make any new models, and with only needing to publish a couple pages of rules in a White Dwarf, online PDF, or back of a Chaos Legions Codex. It would also bring back The Lost and the Damned.

Thanks you for the post.

[Lord_Caerolion]

So in other words, to be able to explain the changes without tacking on loads of extra pages to each Loyalist codex... they may as well just make a Chaos codex? It's easier just to stick in Huron's old rule into a Chaos codex.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

So in other words, to be able to explain the changes without tacking on loads of extra pages to each Loyalist codex... they may as well just make a Chaos codex? It's easier just to stick in Huron's old rule into a Chaos codex.

 

Except that Huron's old rule is going to lead to a lot of weird and abusable situations, and in general will be useless. The point of this suggestions is that in about 1 page, + 1 page per codex (4-5 pages total) you can make renegade lists based on each codex viable, and they'll all be different, and can be useful and not broken or underpowered. And you don't have to devote a whole book to it.

 

Notice that the point of this is to allow us to have renegade lists without a renegade codex, so that we can have a real Legions codex.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yes, because giving the current codexes won't lead to weird and abuseable situations at all, like Tzeentchian Runepriests, Khornate Thunderwolf Cavalry, Khornate Death Company better than Berzerkers and Tzeentchian Librarian Dreadnoughts. My point is simply that we've already got too many people using Counts As to represent their Legions, we don't need to give them an even better reason why Blood Angels/Space Wolves are better to represent their World Eaters, unless you make the World Eaters the Blood Angels but even better in assault, which is what Blood Angels are supposed to be good at. We'll also be getting "yeah, these are my Ultramarines, but to represent the fact that they're a Reserve Assault Company, they all have the Mark of Khorne. Ok, they lose ATSKNF and special characters, but they get so, so much else in return.

 

I really don't see why it's possible to do it this way, yet not to have Huron have a special rule of "squad leaders may take X, Y or Z, costing A, B and C, and you can take blah, blah and blah units for 10 points extra". It's far easier to make a change to one codex than to make a change to 5.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Yes, because giving the current codexes won't lead to weird and abuseable situations at all, like Tzeentchian Runepriests, Khornate Thunderwolf Cavalry, Khornate Death Company better than Berzerkers and Tzeentchian Librarian Dreadnoughts.

 

Which is why I say a page for each of the codices, so that individual things can be ruled out. This is in the original post. It seems like half the people in this thread glanced at my list, but didn't read the actual post.

 

My point is simply that we've already got too many people using Counts As to represent their Legions, we don't need to give them an even better reason why Blood Angels/Space Wolves are better to represent their World Eaters, unless you make the World Eaters the Blood Angels but even better in assault, which is what Blood Angels are supposed to be good at.

 

If you had real renegade lists, and real Legion lists, you wouldn't need to counts as as loyalist codices at all. That's the whole point of this.

 

We'll also be getting "yeah, these are my Ultramarines, but to represent the fact that they're a Reserve Assault Company, they all have the Mark of Khorne. Ok, they lose ATSKNF and special characters, but they get so, so much else in return.

 

Implying that people don't already do plenty of weird counts as stuff? By this same logic, why aren't we seeing more of this exact same thing with people having counts as ultramarines using other loyalist codices? Its a small and harmless thing. It would only be a real issue if the renegade list options were just blatantly better than the base codex, but nobody has said they should be.

 

I really don't see why it's possible to do it this way, yet not to have Huron have a special rule of "squad leaders may take X, Y or Z, costing A, B and C, and you can take blah, blah and blah units for 10 points extra". It's far easier to make a change to one codex than to make a change to 5.

 

Again, seems like you haven't even read this thread. Having a single rule can't possible account for all variables and situations. That's why I suggest having about a page for each codex, detailing the rules for making them renegades. This way the strange foibles, exploits, and fluff problems could be avoided.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

A page for each loyalist codex seems fair and reasonable. Base "can and can't do"s seems realistic and seems more in keeping. I loathe use of loyalist codecies for "counts as" Chaos as much as i loathe our current Dex in its entirety. It makes no sense that a chapter or a company turns traitor and loses all of its newer tech like ironclads etc upon bowing at an alter. Surely traitors turned to combine their current power and equipment with the corruption and warp-power the gods can offer.

 

Personally, I like the idea Judge Dreadnaught, I think it makes sense, will give individuality to each traitor company and also give back the identity to the original traitor legions.

 

I see newer traitor companies or chapters more in keeping with the Soul Drinkers than Huron's pirates, who are more the "tweeners" of all those that have turned to the ultimate powers of the warp.

[Canadin]

@Drudge:: What you have outlines seems interesting, but form a statistical power-game point of view, you have simply set up rules for buiilding a BEtter loyalist army.

 

Taking a Wolves army, and adding a IoCG ti each LD-8 squad would turn that codex into an even greater monster than it is right now. Taking a Blood Angels army and giving them all IoKhorne, would turn them into insanly powerful mellee army.

 

Taking one codex and simply adding to it makes teh enw version just better (ex Blood Angels VS Ultramarines). I would have to say that if you intend to house-rule your new version of chaos, you come up for a larger balancing facot than the removal of characters and that multi-meltas and thundersheilds are more expensive.

 

Really like the idea though, just think that it looks too powerful from where I stand.

[the jeske]

if it costs more it is not better . specialy as a lot of builds wouldnt be aviable to chaos players. You wouldnt be able to do a pedro/khan/shriek builds , you wouldnt be able to play a terminator army [because belial is a special] . you also wouldnt have atsknf which is kind of a crucial to any loyalist sm army.

[Wildonion]

The easiest solution would be to just limit such an idea to C:SM and not even bother with the other marine books. I am pretty sure you could build a workable renegades force that way and it would be fairly streamlined.